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Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

nobody cares


WhyteRyce posted:

Even in Samsung's white papers it didn't show it beating Intel in QoS and still suffered (unsurprisingly) from the same read/write speed imbalance as typical NAND drives. The big threats are cost and it being good/close enough to those key Optane performance metrics. The QoS numbers looks good but will have to hold up

And at this point it's basically gen 1 3dxp vs. extremely polished and understood NAND

It's the costs of 3D Xpoint that's the kicker here. I can't find a financially-justifiable middle ground for Optane between high-grade Nand and RAM. Not quite yet.

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jeff8472
Dec 28, 2000

He died from watch-in-ass disease
Optane is suppose to act like the ssd portion of hybrid hard drives, right?

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

nobody cares


As in caching? Sorta, that's one good use for it right now, if you have an absurd database but absolutely positively cannot put enough ram on your cluster to handle it, somehow.

Optane is only part of the story. The actual storage packages and interface tech, 3D Xpoint, is theoretically going to become nonvolatile ram, which would let someone break down the division between memory and storage.

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001

These 800ps can still apparently be used as a cache but they are (barely for the 60) large enough to be used as a regular storage device

Pastry Mistakes
Apr 6, 2009

I have an 840 Evo, and according to Samsung magician is only had 15tb written over its entire life since 2014.

I love this drive.

But recently, my windows 10 installation started getting hundreds of errors in the event viewer (dcom mostly for some reason) every day, and the 391 nvidia driver just mangled my system and my computer started randomly restarting several times an hour. I tried several rollbacks but nothing worked. No problem, I figured I'll just reformat it.

I had a friend help me reformat the 840,and during the win 10 clean install it still showed the rolled back nvidia driver as existing. We formatted the drive, so this was more than confusing. After another format from the win 10 USB bootable, we were still seeing the previous nvidia drives (as well as three random other ones that weren't gpu related).

Long story short my friend takes my 840 and reformats it on another computer.. And somehow turns this thing Raw. Even after writing a new volume, this thing will not show up outside of disk manager.

How hosed is this drive? Is it salvageable or does it sound like it was on its way out?

Rexxed
May 1, 2010

Dis is amazing!
I gotta try dis!

Pastry Mistakes posted:

I have an 840 Evo, and according to Samsung magician is only had 15tb written over its entire life since 2014.

I love this drive.

But recently, my windows 10 installation started getting hundreds of errors in the event viewer (dcom mostly for some reason) every day, and the 391 nvidia driver just mangled my system and my computer started randomly restarting several times an hour. I tried several rollbacks but nothing worked. No problem, I figured I'll just reformat it.

I had a friend help me reformat the 840,and during the win 10 clean install it still showed the rolled back nvidia driver as existing. We formatted the drive, so this was more than confusing. After another format from the win 10 USB bootable, we were still seeing the previous nvidia drives (as well as three random other ones that weren't gpu related).

Long story short my friend takes my 840 and reformats it on another computer.. And somehow turns this thing Raw. Even after writing a new volume, this thing will not show up outside of disk manager.

How hosed is this drive? Is it salvageable or does it sound like it was on its way out?

Sounds like it's messed up. It would have been best to check it with Crystal Disk Info to see if there were errors when things started getting weird. I think it has to be mounted to do that, though, so it's likely that it won't be possible now. Unfortunately, the 840 EVO only has a 3 year warranty: http://www.samsung.com/semiconductor/minisite/ssd/support/warranty/ which means there won't be much you can do beyond just buying a new drive. My 840 Pro has some errors but not enough to keep it from operating so I'm debating trying to warranty it after 4 1/2 years (limit on that one seems to be 5).

BobHoward
Feb 13, 2012

The only thing white people deserve is a bullet to their empty skull

Pastry Mistakes posted:

I had a friend help me reformat the 840,and during the win 10 clean install it still showed the rolled back nvidia driver as existing. We formatted the drive, so this was more than confusing. After another format from the win 10 USB bootable, we were still seeing the previous nvidia drives (as well as three random other ones that weren't gpu related).

Yeah it's confusing that stuff appeared to persist post format, but that's an extraordinarily unlikely side effect of a failing SSD, so more likely explanations are along the lines of 'your friend didn't really format the thing and the install wasn't truly clean'.

quote:

Long story short my friend takes my 840 and reformats it on another computer.. And somehow turns this thing Raw. Even after writing a new volume, this thing will not show up outside of disk manager.

How hosed is this drive? Is it salvageable or does it sound like it was on its way out?

What does "turns this thing Raw" mean? And are you really sure your friend knows what they're doing? Showing up in disk manager, but not elsewhere, could just mean your friend managed to erase the partition structure (or whatever) without properly setting up new.

Instead of freaking out about things which don't really (imo) seem to be symptoms of a failing disk, get direct information: download Samsung's Magician and use it to report the SSD's health. Alternatively, you could use some other SMART based tool (like Crystal DiskInfo), but Magician's the best choice for a Samsung SSD.

If Magician gives the drive the green light, get a new computer toucher friend who knows how to cleanly reformat a disk.

GRINDCORE MEGGIDO
Feb 28, 1985


"Hey can you fix my ssd"

Sure, how's that, looking good right?

GRINDCORE MEGGIDO fucked around with this message at 12:58 on Mar 9, 2018

Paul MaudDib
May 3, 2006

TEAM NVIDIA:
FORUM POLICE
How is the Micron 1100 2 TB for a Steam drive? Normally goes for about $375 (pretty good) but right now you can get one off eBay for $305 with the ESPRING20 coupon...

Armacham
Mar 3, 2007

Then brothers in war, to the skirmish must we hence! Shall we hence?

Paul MaudDib posted:

How is the Micron 1100 2 TB for a Steam drive? Normally goes for about $375 (pretty good) but right now you can get one off eBay for $305 with the ESPRING20 coupon...

Not the 2TB but my computer came with a 256GB Micron 1100 as the main drive. It benchmarks almost exactly the same as the 512GB Samsung 850 Evo that's in the same system.

Seamonster
Apr 30, 2007

IMMER SIEGREICH
I don't know nothin about no steam drives but here's something to boot from:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Samsung-860-EVO-1TB-Internal-SATA-Solid-State-Drive-for-Laptops/192436825547?afepn=5337259887&rmvSB=true

coupon code pspring20 to get it to $232

SlayVus
Jul 10, 2009
Grimey Drawer
So the new Intel 800p m.2 SSDs use 2x lanes, would a 58GB 800p be a good investment for a desktop PC just to use as a caching drive? I do video editing, have a download manager that uses a cache for rebuilding files, chrome cache, page file, etc. My motherboard only supports PCI-e 2.0 2x, so I wouldn't get the full read speeds of 1400 MB/s+, but could get the full 4k performance.

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

nobody cares


SlayVus posted:

So the new Intel 800p m.2 SSDs use 2x lanes, would a 58GB 800p be a good investment for a desktop PC just to use as a caching drive? I do video editing, have a download manager that uses a cache for rebuilding files, chrome cache, page file, etc. My motherboard only supports PCI-e 2.0 2x, so I wouldn't get the full read speeds of 1400 MB/s+, but could get the full 4k performance.

What's the size of your videos, and what's your system drive?

Canned Sunshine
Nov 20, 2005

CAUTION: POST QUALITY UNDER CONSTRUCTION



About $206 for a 1TB Crucial MX500 using the PSRING20 coupon too.

Kazinsal
Dec 13, 2011



Is there any recommended method for cloning an SSD to a larger SSD? I'm replacing my 250 GB 850 EVO with a 1 TB MX500.

Paul MaudDib
May 3, 2006

TEAM NVIDIA:
FORUM POLICE

Kazinsal posted:

Is there any recommended method for cloning an SSD to a larger SSD? I'm replacing my 250 GB 850 EVO with a 1 TB MX500.

Macrium Reflect Free.

SlayVus
Jul 10, 2009
Grimey Drawer

Potato Salad posted:

What's the size of your videos, and what's your system drive?

Mushkin chronos deluxe 240gb SSD. It's about 4-5 years in age now in 20tb+ drive writes. My current cache drive is an 850 1tb that I've gotten less than a year ago and already has 25tb of drive writes. I have in total the mushkin 240, 2x 850 Evo 500gb, 2x 850 Evo 1tb, plus a we green 3tb for video storage. My usage habits changed since I got a VPS/VPN.

File sizes of the videos I work with or around 8-10 gb for 5 minutes of video. Recording gameplay at 3440x1440@60hz. I also use Shadowplay which caches video which would be another use for the 800p m.2 drive. The 20+ tb of drive writes to my two drives mostly come from Shadowplay constantly running.

SlayVus fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Mar 10, 2018

Paul MaudDib
May 3, 2006

TEAM NVIDIA:
FORUM POLICE

Armacham posted:

Not the 2TB but my computer came with a 256GB Micron 1100 as the main drive. It benchmarks almost exactly the same as the 512GB Samsung 850 Evo that's in the same system.

I found a forum thread on it where they suggest that the bigger drives are actually slower than the smaller drives for some reason.

Whatever, I guess at $305 for 2 TB it could have actual rocks inside and it would still be a good deal. As long as it's not gonna be like Corsair Force LS-level terrible it'll be fine for a Steam drive.

I noticed they've been running a lot of eBay bucks promos lately, but man, eBay's Q1 numbers must be supremely lovely if they're giving a blanket "20% off everything" coupon like this.

Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Mar 10, 2018

redeyes
Sep 14, 2002

by Fluffdaddy
Whats the largest amount of writes a goon has on a SSD that is working well?

Intel 750 nvme 400GB.
I am at a %90 wear level. 34TB after approx 2.5 years.

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

nobody cares


I've got a couple P3700s with 40 PB of writes between them :sun:

redeyes
Sep 14, 2002

by Fluffdaddy

Potato Salad posted:

I've got a couple P3700s with 40 PB of writes between them :sun:

you win!

[edit] any idea what the wear level reports?

redeyes fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Mar 10, 2018

Pastry Mistakes
Apr 6, 2009

BobHoward posted:

Yeah it's confusing that stuff appeared to persist post format, but that's an extraordinarily unlikely side effect of a failing SSD, so more likely explanations are along the lines of 'your friend didn't really format the thing and the install wasn't truly clean'.


What does "turns this thing Raw" mean? And are you really sure your friend knows what they're doing? Showing up in disk manager, but not elsewhere, could just mean your friend managed to erase the partition structure (or whatever) without properly setting up new.

Instead of freaking out about things which don't really (imo) seem to be symptoms of a failing disk, get direct information: download Samsung's Magician and use it to report the SSD's health. Alternatively, you could use some other SMART based tool (like Crystal DiskInfo), but Magician's the best choice for a Samsung SSD.

If Magician gives the drive the green light, get a new computer toucher friend who knows how to cleanly reformat a disk.


We let the windows installation perform the format twice, and after we saw the drives persist after the second reformat, that's when he offered to format the drive.

By Raw I mean it's a completely unallocated disk now. After some research on how to do this poo poo, I bought a USB/sata connector and plugged it into a family members computer, opened disk manager, and created a new volume. The drive has a GPT partition and it's nfts as well with 232gb available. In disk management it shows a 450mb recovery partition, a 100mb efi system partition, and then a 232gb primary partition.
Windows says it's healthy, but when I plug it in to my computer to perform a clean install of windows 10 it can't be detected.

I bought an 860 Evo yesterday out of frustration and out of the box it couldn't be detected either. I popped it in to the other computer and it was also raw, so I did the above steps again.

I installed magician as well, and it can't see the 860 or the 840 so I can't run any checks. Maybe it's due to the usb/sata connector. I've no idea.

Any idiot proof programs I can use to do this poo poo?

suck my woke dick
Oct 10, 2012

:siren:I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!:siren:

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

Pastry Mistakes posted:

We let the windows installation perform the format twice, and after we saw the drives persist after the second reformat, that's when he offered to format the drive.

By Raw I mean it's a completely unallocated disk now. After some research on how to do this poo poo, I bought a USB/sata connector and plugged it into a family members computer, opened disk manager, and created a new volume. The drive has a GPT partition and it's nfts as well with 232gb available. In disk management it shows a 450mb recovery partition, a 100mb efi system partition, and then a 232gb primary partition.
Windows says it's healthy, but when I plug it in to my computer to perform a clean install of windows 10 it can't be detected.

I bought an 860 Evo yesterday out of frustration and out of the box it couldn't be detected either. I popped it in to the other computer and it was also raw, so I did the above steps again.

I installed magician as well, and it can't see the 860 or the 840 so I can't run any checks. Maybe it's due to the usb/sata connector. I've no idea.

Any idiot proof programs I can use to do this poo poo?

What you call "raw" is exactly what the drive should look like after a full format or fresh out of the box, though in that case it also shouldn't have any recovery partitions and system partitions left. Nuke all partitions and make a new one.


Overall it sounds like your mainboard rather than the SSDs is at fault, and I suspect it's nothing more than a BIOS setting (plus if you have issues installing poo poo and keep using a USB-SATA connector instead of just plugging the drive into a SATA port then you are missing an obvious troubleshooting step, or were you trying to say you only used the USB-SATA on your family member's computer?): if you have quick boot (iirc) enabled then you can't boot from USB at all.

suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Mar 11, 2018

Pastry Mistakes
Apr 6, 2009

On my computer I do a direct install.
On my family pc I use the USB.

BobHoward
Feb 13, 2012

The only thing white people deserve is a bullet to their empty skull

Pastry Mistakes posted:

We let the windows installation perform the format twice, and after we saw the drives persist after the second reformat, that's when he offered to format the drive.

By Raw I mean it's a completely unallocated disk now. After some research on how to do this poo poo, I bought a USB/sata connector and plugged it into a family members computer, opened disk manager, and created a new volume. The drive has a GPT partition and it's nfts as well with 232gb available. In disk management it shows a 450mb recovery partition, a 100mb efi system partition, and then a 232gb primary partition.
Windows says it's healthy, but when I plug it in to my computer to perform a clean install of windows 10 it can't be detected.

I bought an 860 Evo yesterday out of frustration and out of the box it couldn't be detected either. I popped it in to the other computer and it was also raw, so I did the above steps again.

I installed magician as well, and it can't see the 860 or the 840 so I can't run any checks. Maybe it's due to the usb/sata connector. I've no idea.

Yes, being behind a USB-SATA converter often interferes with SMART reporting tools like Magician. SMART is the name of the SATA feature used by disk drives (both HDD and SSD) to report their health. Unfortunately the USB to SATA protocol conversion means that drives behind a converter don't appear to be ATA devices to the system. There is a protocol for tunneling SMART through anyways, and most modern USB-SATA converters support it, so with the right reporting tool you can work around this. I know how to do this on Linux, unfortunately I don't know how on Windows.

Troubleshooting logic: You've now got two drives which sound like they work fine outside your computer, but have identical (I think? Sounds very similar at least) problems when connected to yours. That means your computer's now the prime suspect, not the SSDs. If your computer is a desktop, first thing I'd try is swapping the SATA cable out, and/or connecting the SSD to a different SATA port on your motherboard.

Pastry Mistakes
Apr 6, 2009

I'm deathly afraid it's the mobo now. I have a wd red 3tb that was showing up in the drive list, so I guess I'll try that cable with the ssd. Push comes to show I'll buy a few new from monoprice to keep on hand.

Kazinsal
Dec 13, 2011



Paul MaudDib posted:

Macrium Reflect Free.

Perfect, thanks. Now to eagerly await the SSD's arrival...

Saukkis
May 16, 2003

Unless I'm on the inside curve pointing straight at oncoming traffic the high beams stay on and I laugh at your puny protest flashes.
I am Most Important Man. Most Important Man in the World.

redeyes posted:

Whats the largest amount of writes a goon has on a SSD that is working well?

The first server with SSDs at work is used for running a bunch of Oracle databases. One day I decided to check with hpssacli the wear level on the drives. It estimated they had about 50,5 years of life left on them.

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E
So...an SSD controller actually knows how much actual data is on it if the drive is properly trimmed right? So an external could in theory have accurate usage displayed on an embedded display without using any assistance software and no dependence on the file system like previous attempts at an embedded capacity display.

SlayVus
Jul 10, 2009
Grimey Drawer

Shaocaholica posted:

So...an SSD controller actually knows how much actual data is on it if the drive is properly trimmed right? So an external could in theory have accurate usage displayed on an embedded display without using any assistance software and no dependence on the file system like previous attempts at an embedded capacity display.

Except that is apart of the SMART protocol and it's difficult to find enclosures that will pass that information to the host computer. They made e-ink displays on flash drives that show current storage capacity used, so it's possible.

SlayVus fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Mar 14, 2018

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E
I think those older gen e-ink displays relied on an application running on a host OS to send the capacity use to some embedded controller on the external. It wouldn't be accurate if you plugged into another computer and started adding/deleting stuff.

If the SSD controller were in directly control of the display, it could use trim info to determine usage but that also assumes every device that writes and deletes from it is trim capable.

Maybe in the future.

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E
So will all NVME SSDs operate in AHCI mode if necessary? How much faster is AHCI mode on PCIe x4 vs 6G-SATA?

BobHoward
Feb 13, 2012

The only thing white people deserve is a bullet to their empty skull

Shaocaholica posted:

So will all NVME SSDs operate in AHCI mode if necessary? How much faster is AHCI mode on PCIe x4 vs 6G-SATA?

What on earth are you talking about, NVME doesn't support an AHCI mode. It's not an extension of SATA/AHCI, it's an entirely new standard written by a different standards body.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week

Shaocaholica posted:

So will all NVME SSDs operate in AHCI mode if necessary? How much faster is AHCI mode on PCIe x4 vs 6G-SATA?

NMVe is its own thing, and a NVMe drive can only operate in NMVe mode. Setting AHCI or RAID mode on the bios should have no effect on it, that only effects the SATA drives. don't confuse NMVe with M.2

SATA: a bus standard (the wires, connector, and which protocols the devices on it will use)
AHCI: an interface protocol (the commands & data that both sides use to talk)
M.2: a physical standard (a connector & dimensions of the device) with 2 bus standards (SATA and PCIe+NVMe)
NMVe: an interface protocol used over the PCIe bus standard

Simple!


a NMVe drive can be a lot faster than AHCI at some tasks, but those tend to be outside the zone of most home user or even prosumer use. Big databases love it, regular "read a gigabyte of data" jobs don't really see much benefit. NVMe drives that use all 4 PCIe lanes won't hit the bandwidth cap that SATA has with fast SSDs, but even that isn't exactly a common thing for most people.

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001

Connectors and protocols being decoupled are all the rage now

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E

Klyith posted:

NMVe is its own thing, and a NVMe drive can only operate in NMVe mode. Setting AHCI or RAID mode on the bios should have no effect on it, that only effects the SATA drives. don't confuse NMVe with M.2

SATA: a bus standard (the wires, connector, and which protocols the devices on it will use)
AHCI: an interface protocol (the commands & data that both sides use to talk)
M.2: a physical standard (a connector & dimensions of the device) with 2 bus standards (SATA and PCIe+NVMe)
NMVe: an interface protocol used over the PCIe bus standard

Simple!


a NMVe drive can be a lot faster than AHCI at some tasks, but those tend to be outside the zone of most home user or even prosumer use. Big databases love it, regular "read a gigabyte of data" jobs don't really see much benefit. NVMe drives that use all 4 PCIe lanes won't hit the bandwidth cap that SATA has with fast SSDs, but even that isn't exactly a common thing for most people.

Thanks. I got confused a bit reading some other articles online about how some(?) Samsung NVME SSDs will also fall back to AHCI if the chipset or whatever doesn't support NVME. I'm looking into some hackery with a Z87 that usually doesn't support NVME booting and would require a M.2 PCIe card for said fuckery.

Chimp_On_Stilts
Aug 31, 2004
Holy Hell.
I have a ~5 year old SSD in my desktop, it's a Mushkin Chronos Deluxe 240 GB SATA 6.0 Gb-s 2.5-Inch.

I've noticed that the machine is very slow to launch games. E.g., 1+ min to launch Vermintide 2, TF2, Nuclear Throne, etc. - so, old titles, new ones, big ones, small ones. I use this machine almost exclusively for gaming, so I can't compare to non-game programs other than Chrome. (Chrome loads fast.)

I believe it was significantly faster in the past. The issue crept up on me, it's not the case that over night the loads became super slow.

I don't know how to diagnose the problem, but I am confident the titles should load much faster.

1.) How do you recommend I diagnose the issue?
2.) (Related) How do you recommend I determine if the HDD is ok, or if it's malfunctioning?

I already have backups, so no biggie if the disk dies.

Rexxed
May 1, 2010

Dis is amazing!
I gotta try dis!

Chimp_On_Stilts posted:

I have a ~5 year old SSD in my desktop, it's a Mushkin Chronos Deluxe 240 GB SATA 6.0 Gb-s 2.5-Inch.

I've noticed that the machine is very slow to launch games. E.g., 1+ min to launch Vermintide 2, TF2, Nuclear Throne, etc. - so, old titles, new ones, big ones, small ones. I use this machine almost exclusively for gaming, so I can't compare to non-game programs other than Chrome. (Chrome loads fast.)

I believe it was significantly faster in the past. The issue crept up on me, it's not the case that over night the loads became super slow.

I don't know how to diagnose the problem, but I am confident the titles should load much faster.

1.) How do you recommend I diagnose the issue?
2.) (Related) How do you recommend I determine if the HDD is ok, or if it's malfunctioning?

I already have backups, so no biggie if the disk dies.

Install Crystal Disk Info so you can see the SMART data of the drive. Post it in the thread or just look to see if something is yellow or red.
https://crystalmark.info/en/download/#CrystalDiskInfo
The same author makes crystal disk mark where you can check the speed of disks if the SMART data looks okay.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week

Shaocaholica posted:

Thanks. I got confused a bit reading some other articles online about how some(?) Samsung NVME SSDs will also fall back to AHCI if the chipset or whatever doesn't support NVME.
afaik nope, and definitely not any of the standard sold-to-consumers drives. links?

quote:

I'm looking into some hackery with a Z87 that usually doesn't support NVME booting and would require a M.2 PCIe card for said fuckery.
unless you have a real use case for this you are probably entering a world of pain. save your money.



Chimp_On_Stilts posted:

1.) How do you recommend I diagnose the issue?
2.) (Related) How do you recommend I determine if the HDD is ok, or if it's malfunctioning?
1. how full is the SSD? if it's 90% full you should remove some stuff.

2. get crystaldiskinfo, look at your ssd, post a screenshot.

3. do you also have a regular HDD in the system? add a second library location on the spinny disk and install some indie game there, see if it still takes a minute to load. sometimes steam can get hosed up where it's always trying to install directx or whatever every time you launch a game.

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Chimp_On_Stilts
Aug 31, 2004
Holy Hell.
CrystalDiskInfo says the drive is "Good 100%". I see nothing in yellow or red.

Anecdotally, I feel like the disk performs fine. Windows boots quickly, and once a game is loaded in-game loads are quick. It is *only* when first launching a game that the delay happens.

Maybe it's a Windows problem, not a HDD problem?

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