|
Fart City posted:The “brothers in arms” scene from Fury Road, where they’re being chased by the bikers, is also really great. Especially in how it uses movement in the frame to keep the viewer oriented and directed amidst all of the chaos going on. Another great example of the score taking the action to another level.
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2018 19:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 08:17 |
|
|
Snowman_McK posted:That serves better as a reminder that you can't just throw money at a scene, since 'The Raid 2' did a better version of that chase a month earlier with a budget roughly equal to TWS' catering budget. All the action in Winter Soldier is underwhelming, the camera’s not focused on the good stuff and it all feels so weightless.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2018 20:25
|
|
|
Wheat Loaf posted:The Raid movies are directed by a Welshman and I don't know why I think that's funny; I suppose it's odd that he hasn't been offered anything in Hollywood (or even back in the UK) yet. A giant Welshman (6'7) who married into Indonesian money. It's a pretty cool story. Especially given how fast him and his team are developing as film makers. I have a little bit of family in Indonesia, and briefly met Joe Taslim (who you may remember as the Captain or Lieutenant in the first Raid) He's bloody tiny, and yet towers over Mad Dog, which tells you how small Mad Dog is. Dog_Meat posted:How could I forget True Lies?! True Lies is a really good, cartoonish action movie that history and politics make kind of vile retroactively. Like, it's not a serious movie about terrorism at all (the terrorists in the movie don't actually kill anyone in the whole movie) but, with how the world has gone since 2001, it's a little harder to watch. Cameron has an amazing sense for being able to do humour, but stop just short of it being dumb. It's a very fine line that Cameron knows, but Mostow didn't. X-Ray Pecs posted:All the action in Winter Soldier is underwhelming, the camera’s not focused on the good stuff and it all feels so weightless. Action and reaction are never in the same shot. When Nick Fury is being chased, the cops chasing him and him are never in the same shot. You get a shot of him trying to manuver the car, a shot of the cop firing, then a different shot of some glass breaking. It never feels like it's all happening in the same location.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2018 01:13
|
|
|
Snowman_McK posted:Action and reaction are never in the same shot. When Nick Fury is being chased, the cops chasing him and him are never in the same shot. You get a shot of him trying to manuver the car, a shot of the cop firing, then a different shot of some glass breaking. It never feels like it's all happening in the same location. I just rewatched the fight between Rogers and the Winter Soldier and there's barely any moments of attack and response/counter that happen without a cut, sometimes multiple cuts per action. And that's the best action sequence in the film.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2018 01:38
|
|
|
Snowman_McK posted:
Nick Fury scene: During the initial gun battle the positions are clear and there are several shots establishing positions so that separate firing and impact shots do not confuse the viewer in terms of locations and placements. There are also several shots with a gun firing and showing impact in the same shot. There are clear shots of Fury's suv and the pursuing cop cars in the same shot throughout the car chase parts. The relative positions of the vehicles are never not clear. During the traffic jam part things are a bit more confusing but its a straight line so it's easy to follow, and the less clear shots do add to the chaos of the scene. When Fury comes to the side of a bus, an attacker runs to the other side and fires through the bus at him, the positions are clearly established, and camera movement sells the direction and impact of the attacker firing at fury. There is a shot of him firing through the bus window from inside Fury's car pov. During the next part of the chase again it is clear what is going on with pursuers and Fury moving in the same shot. There are several shots of the cops firing at Fury in motion, with both attacker and target in the same shot. Overall there are perhaps a few too many cuts throughout the sequence but it is a well staged sequence and it's always clear thorough the shots, camera work and editing what is going on during the sequence and compared to most modern action scenes it is very legible.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2018 01:47
|
|
|
I'm often nitpicking action scenes in movies but I don't remember having many problems with Winter Soldier. I know Jackie Chan hates how in so many Western fights the impact of a punch is in a different shot than the punch and how that severely dampens the effect. I'll have to keep that in mind next time I watch Winter Soldier.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2018 02:08
|
|
|
Lobok posted:I'm often nitpicking action scenes in movies but I don't remember having many problems with Winter Soldier. I know Jackie Chan hates how in so many Western fights the impact of a punch is in a different shot than the punch and how that severely dampens the effect. I'll have to keep that in mind next time I watch Winter Soldier. It's not terrible, it's a well-choreographed sequence and the cuts are skillfully edited to maintain a good energy flow and consistent sense of space. I just don't like frenetic two-cuts-a-second editing in general, it inherently divides your attention between the action happening in the frame and the competing action of constantly reframing it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2018 02:28
|
|
|
Wandle Cax posted:compared to most modern action scenes it is very legible. This should be their slogan "legible" Replacing the old slogan of "perfectly adequate and inoffensive" None of it is actually confusing. It's fine. But a movie with that much money and resources behind it should aim to be better than fine.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2018 03:50
|
|
|
Ok then, it's a good sequence which you described inaccurately, was what I was getting at.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2018 04:46
|
|
|
Wandle Cax posted:Ok then, it's a good sequence which you described inaccurately, was what I was getting at. Not really. The ovewhelming majority of the actions and reactions take place in different shots. In the opening salvo of gunfire, the cops, Fury's car and Fury himself are all in different shots. When he returns fire, it's mostly shot/reverse shot of him firing and the cops getting hit. The grenade launching sequence is especially notable, as they cut to a completely different angle that you can't even see Fury's car from. It's the same once they're all immobolised by the bus stop. I'm rewatching it on Youtube now. And while there are shots where more than one thing is in the shot, they're rare and almost none of them are action shots. This is even true in the movie's karate punch fight scenes, where you get a close up of one fighter and the disembodied fist of the other. Yes, the scene is adequate, but my compaint stands up.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2018 04:55
|
|
|
Snowman_McK posted:
Wrong, as I said during the chase parts, the SUV and cop cars are often in the same shot which is very clear. Snowman_McK posted:
Total exaggeration, it's always clear what is happening spatially and where things are in relation to each other. I've already given examples of shooting and impacts being in the same shot of which there are several in the sequence. Of course there are plenty of cases with separate shots, which is true of 90% of action movies. It's more of a problem in a hand to hand scene where you want everything in the same shot to sell the fight. In a shootout it's not really a problem as long as the position of the actors is established clearly beforehand so it doesn't get confusing. The rocket launcher sequence comprises of the following shots: Extreme close up of rocket being launched. PoV from Fury's angle of rocket heading to directly to the black van which is clearlyin the shot. High angle of rocket hitting the van with Fury's suv in the shot on the right. Different angle of the explosion and then another rocket hits another car from off screen, though we know where it came from from what we just saw. Not sure what the problem is with that. Very clear what is going on. And the bus scene as I've already described is well constructed. Of course all this could have been done with more imagination and style if you're really being a harsh critic but again in terms of modern big budget action movies, many of which are shaky ultra quick cut messes, it's good.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2018 05:20
|
|
|
Okay, you're more determined to defend the extremely successful, well regarded movie (which I described as perfectly adequate) than I am to criticise it. I'll concede that the shots I literally just watched on Youtube were in fact completely different to how I saw and subsequently described them. It's fine. But, again, it has a budget of 170 million dollars. I expect more than fine. Especially when it got depantsed by an Indonesian movie directed by an amateur film maker that came out the same month and cost five million. Wandle Cax posted:The rocket launcher sequence comprises of the following shots: You've described it as five shots of different things in response to me saying that action and reaction don't happen in the same shot. What are we even arguing? For instance, that POV shot? Fury isn't in it, neither is the launcher. They're off screen. The next two shots are both wide shots from completely different angles on different sides of the line between the objects. Fury's car is buried over on the far right of the first shot, and isn't in the second at all. Another car is in front of him. Again, it's fine. I wasn't wondering what was happening. But to deny that it could have been done better is just weird. I mean, your defence is that other films are worse, not that this one is good. There were five cuts in this extremely brief sequence, yet other films are quick cut messes. Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Mar 10, 2018 |
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2018 06:32
|
|
|
I literally just watched it too, maybe we saw different clips. I mean i could screenshot it for you and circle the relevant parts but I can't really be bothered Also the raid 2 is great but the car chase is probably the weakest of the action scenes Wandle Cax fucked around with this message at 06:38 on Mar 10, 2018 |
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2018 06:36
|
|
|
Wandle Cax posted:Also the raid 2 is great but the car chase is probably the weakest of the action scenes "The weakest action scene in the Raid 2" is one of those things that sounds like a criticism, but isn't.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2018 06:43
|
|
|
The Raid 2 has a deleted scene that's a better action movie than most other films released.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2018 06:47
|
|
|
I hated the Fury vs cops scene but can’t remember why. I do know part of it was I watched 8 Diagram Pole Fighter the morning I went to see it and...well...
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2018 07:37
|
|
|
I like Winter Soldier, but the best action scenes are the shortest ones. The elevator fight and the brief chase after Bucky shoots up Cap's apartment. The ship infiltration is pretty good too. The big CGI helicarrier takedown stuff is lame as hell, with Bucky and Cap's fight like a low-rent version of the same fight from GoldenEye. There were some okay moments when Falcon fought Frank Grillo, I guess.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2018 07:41
|
|
|
Snowman_McK posted:True Lies is a really good, cartoonish action movie that history and politics make kind of vile retroactively. Like, it's not a serious movie about terrorism at all (the terrorists in the movie don't actually kill anyone in the whole movie) but, with how the world has gone since 2001, it's a little harder to watch. (He was great to interview, BTW. It was meant to be 45 minutes, but we ended up talking for 90 because we started geeking out about technical stuff and submarines. I wish he'd do more movies, and I don't just mean 27 Avatar sequels, because he's still one of - if not the - best action directors ever.) Wandle Cax posted:Also the raid 2 is great but the car chase is probably the weakest of the action scenes Small Strange Bird fucked around with this message at 08:57 on Mar 10, 2018 |
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2018 08:51
|
|
|
LesterGroans posted:The Raid 2 has a deleted scene that's a better action movie than most other films released. Is that the gang war shootout? Because that is amazing. I've seen very few gunfights that aim to show such chaos. Maybe the finale of Johnnie To's Drug War. LesterGroans posted:There were some okay moments when Falcon fought Frank Grillo, I guess. I remember that scene being a really blatant 'we don't have Falcon doing anything' scene. Where they wrote this fight scene and showed about two punches of it, just to make sure everyone's busy in the finale, which is how all Marvel finales are obligated to work. Black Panther has one that really fucks up the text of the movie. Payndz posted:I interviewed Cameron circa 2003, and talking about True Lies, he admitted that post-9/11, the entire premise of an action-comedy about Islamic terrorists attacking America was problematic. His exact words: "That's not funny!" You lucky bastard. Debbie Evans, the stunt driver, tells a story about him going off at her, displeased about some aspect of the Cyberdyne shootout. She politely asked what the problem was, and he apparently never yelled at her again. She says he's a fun guy. The moral is that Debbie Evans is rad.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 02:03
|
|
|
Snowman_McK posted:Is that the gang war shootout? Because that is amazing. I've seen very few gunfights that aim to show such chaos. Maybe the finale of Johnnie To's Drug War. It is, and it rules. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs_Qhmiz40E Snowman_McK posted:I remember that scene being a really blatant 'we don't have Falcon doing anything' scene. Where they wrote this fight scene and showed about two punches of it, just to make sure everyone's busy in the finale, which is how all Marvel finales are obligated to work. Black Panther has one that really fucks up the text of the movie. Yeah, it just kinda gives them something to do (and Fury and Black Widow once they're done with Redford) but I enjoyed it mostly on the merits of Grillo and Anthony Mackie together. They're cool guys.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 02:38
|
|
|
LesterGroans posted:It is, and it rules. I'd time travel them both back to the 90s and have them do one of those 'two partners don't like each other but learn to respect each other' movies.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 03:36
|
|
|
A lot of good action movie talk in this thread. One of the frustrating things about action cinema post-Saving Private Ryan and the Matrix is that while movies in the 80s and 90s understood the importance of coherent camera work, movies after SPR and Matrix took the worst elements of both by misunderstanding what made them so great. For instance, the handheld camera of SPR was pretty revolutionary, at least in the way it was utilized. But, then movies after that took the shakycam and bungled it, not using it to heighten tension, but to disguise poor stuntwork. And the same thing happened with the Matrix. Because Keanu and company had loads of training and choreography Yuen Wu Ping, audiences were treated to stunning action sequences performed by the actors themselves. After that, other movies had their actors doing their own fight scenes, but because they weren't given the adequate training, the filmmakers were forced to hide their shortcomings with close-ups and overactive editing. Which also tied in with their poor use of shakycam. I mean, the first Bourne was okay, because, though it wasn't great camerawork and editing, enough room was given that Damon could show off the moves he was actually doing. Compare that to Supremacy and Greengrass' spastic camera and editing, where you can't see poo poo. You just have to hope and trust that something cool is happening on screen. Totally frustrating.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 17:58
|
|
|
Narzack posted:I mean, the first Bourne was okay, because, though it wasn't great camerawork and editing, enough room was given that Damon could show off the moves he was actually doing. Compare that to Supremacy and Greengrass' spastic camera and editing, where you can't see poo poo. You just have to hope and trust that something cool is happening on screen. Totally frustrating. Something I find way more obnoxious is shutter-fuckery to give a strobing, no-motion-blur effect, as popularised by Ryan and Gladiator. Thankfully the fad seems to have passed, but there was a period when action sequences all looked like second-rate stop motion. Combine with shakycam and Bay-style choppy editing and you get a recipe for nausea.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 20:55
|
|
|
Payndz posted:I disagree here; I find Supremacy and Ultimatum two cases where shakycam is actually used well. The camera is always moving and the cuts are fast, but everything is framed so that the viewer can tell what they're supposed to be looking at in each shot. I never had any trouble following what was happening even on first viewing in the cinema. YMMV, clearly. This is interesting to me, because I'm pretty much landing on the exact opposite from you. While I found Ultimatum better, I think Supremacy was pretty horrible in that regard. For me, the camera was poorly framed, for the most part it was sort of an MCU, legs cut off, arms flailing out of shot, and the camera shaking wildly without any good reason. SPR was mimicking the war photography of the time, which was basically just a dude in the poo poo who couldn't shoot back. Terribly effective, since we'd never really been given an grunt's-eye view of the terror and horror of war. In most other films, Bourne included, there's no reason for a shakycam, other than to make up for the stunts and actors' shortcomings. Similarly, I'm okay with the choppy motion of a 45 angle shutter. For me, it kind of makes things a bit more hyperreal, with movement more aggressive and light is harsher.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 22:32
|
|
|
Payndz posted:I disagree here; I find Supremacy and Ultimatum two cases where shakycam is actually used well. The camera is always moving and the cuts are fast, but everything is framed so that the viewer can tell what they're supposed to be looking at in each shot. I never had any trouble following what was happening even on first viewing in the cinema. YMMV, clearly. I agree, normally shaky cam and quick cuts are an incoherent mess but Greengrass is one of the few cases where it feels like it's a legitimate technique deliberately used to increase the tension and intensity of the scene. Haven't seen Supremacy in a while but in Ultimatum the action scenes are effective, a bit harder to follow I guess than they would be but the intensity is definitely kicked up a notch
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 23:06
|
|
|
Snowman's criticism of Winter Soldier is pretty boilerplate stuff w/r/t contemporary blockbusters. I'm surprised that it's controversial at all. I enjoyed Winter Soldier, and 4 out of 5 Bourne movies, but I thought it was generally understood in the Action Movie Thread that these movies have glaring problems, partly because the definition of an action star has changed.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 00:33
|
|
|
Speaking of action star i finally watched Accident Man and it's the best Adkins movie in years so if you haven't seen it yet make sure to pay for it to support this type of movie getting made
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 01:05
|
|
|
Payndz posted:Having rewatched the Raiders truck chase like I said I would, there's one more thing making it great that I can't believe I forgot to mention: Harrison loving Ford. Harrison Ford has the best Let's GO face of any actor ever. The part earlier in the movie at the German Flying Wing where he realizes that Marion is going to die if he doesn't win the fist fight right now and just throws screaming haymakers at the big German mechanic while the soundtrack blasts brass all over the place is great...and then he loses and is only saved by pure luck! This plays with our expectations and it becomes so incredibly triumphant when, a few scenes later, he's thrown out of the truck and drags his way back into the cab to utterly unload on the German soldier and, this time, win.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 19:34
|
|
|
Payndz posted:I disagree here; I find Supremacy and Ultimatum two cases where shakycam is actually used well. The camera is always moving and the cuts are fast, but everything is framed so that the viewer can tell what they're supposed to be looking at in each shot. I never had any trouble following what was happening even on first viewing in the cinema. YMMV, clearly. The Bourne chase scenes in particular are shot really well. Like, one character in a car will very obviously look at something, and then there's a cut to what he sees. It sounds obvious, but so many movies don't do it (I'm thinking of the Taken movies and Baby Driver here). It's shot and edited to show and attract attention rather than spacial relation. If you're paying attention you can still tell where everything is, but it conveys the actual tension and arc of a scene very well. It really presages Fury Road's techniques, although Miller pulls it off much more effectively.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 20:26
|
|
|
I just watched Bourne Supremacy and Ultimatum this week and there's definitely a noticeable difference between them, as if Greengrass heard some of the criticism of Supremacy and made a point of improving on it for Ultimatum. It goes beyond just the action too, in Supremacy there are just a nauseating(literally, you can get nauseous watching them) amount of extremely quick cuts in scenes where they were not necessary. Just dialogue scenes where two people are talking spy stuff to each other but the camera is flittering all over the place from this one to that one to the phone to Bourne walking down a hallway now back to the phone then a close up of a face and then back to Bourne and then you puke all over yourself. Ultimatum did away with most of that and he uses the shakey cam more judiciously in scenes where it actually adds something.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 20:33
|
|
|
Greengrass sucks. Jason Bourne's loving trailer had a better shot of his one-punch victory than the actual movie. He's a poo poo action director, and btw I can follow most of his stuff better than most people and like the Bourne movies. I just think his cinematography is trash and doesn't help.
Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Mar 12, 2018 |
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 20:40
|
|
|
It's weird that I heard people lumping that in with what was called Greengrass' "documentary style," as if documentaries are typically cut that way. Not a lot of cuts in The Fog of War.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 20:41
|
|
|
I think what they are actually noticing is the sense of immediacy that he adds. And he does. He gets right in there, close to the action, inches from windshield or a couple feet away from the combatants. But it's possible to do that and still give people an idea of what's going on, and still let them enjoy the choreography and craftsmanship of the fight. He dices that to hash.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 20:44
|
|
|
Was the Jeremy Renner Bourne movie any good? I never got around to watching it. I have a soft spot for Tony Gilroy after Michael Clayton but somehow never noticed that he directed Bourne Legacy.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 20:45
|
|
|
MrBling posted:Was the Jeremy Renner Bourne movie any good? I never got around to watching it. I never saw it but it's in this Bourne box set I picked up the other day so I'm gonna check it out tonight. Of course someone's gonna come in right behind this post and say it's complete poo poo and put a damper on my evening plans but whatever.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 20:48
|
|
|
It's like if the Bourne "house style" was applied to a somewhat sillier Universal Soldier type plot about brainwashed super-soldiers. I certainly don't regret seeing it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 20:51
|
|
|
It's ok. Honestly the word I would use is "workmanlike". Like Halloween Jack I didn't think it was a waste of time, particularly if you like all the other Bourne movies.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 20:51
|
|
|
MrBling posted:Was the Jeremy Renner Bourne movie any good? I never got around to watching it. Its a weird movie because at times it feels like a science fiction movie what with all the stuff about genetic engineering. Probably the biggest issue with the movie is that the plot comes to what is basically the end but then the movie continues for another 15 or so minutes with another action scene that feels completely pointless.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 20:53
|
|
|
Whenever people mention shakycam and fast cuts all I can think of is the current WWE production style, which is headache inducing at best. https://twitter.com/AndrewTRich/status/968941863087550467
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 21:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 08:17 |
|
|
MrBling posted:Whenever people mention shakycam and fast cuts all I can think of is the current WWE production style, which is headache inducing at best. Yea, this exactly. There were a few scenes just like that in Bourne Supremacy but like I said they were like a dude talking on the phone with another dude while in a third location Jason Bourne strides down a dark hallway. Apparently we need a cut every 1.5 seconds for this scene.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 21:24
|
|