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VictorianQueerLit
Aug 25, 2017
That episode was so stupid that I'm afraid If I started dissecting it I would become someone else, become something else. Dumb

Favorite parts:

Renee being hurt and Oliver trying to stop the fight, only for Renee to grab an axe and try to murder Oliver with it. A regular kick nearly kills him because he was fighting when he shouldn't have been and kept escalating the fight Oliver didn't want to have even though he knew he was hurt. This is Oliver's fault somehow.

Curtis highroading Felicity when his team came to murder someone, started firing guns at unarmed civilians, shot felicity, tried to kill Oliver, assaulted Quentin, almost crippled Diggle by hacking his medical implant and caused the city to lose it's money.

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Yer Burnt
Feb 26, 2007

I would like to see them try a 13-episode season and it can share timeslots with Black Lightning.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

In fairness I'm not sure Quentin, Thea, and Felicity technically qualify as "civilians." But Its splitting hairs.

As I said, I don't think we were meant to agree with the Outsiders. Everything up to that hospital scene showed that they were repeatedly crossing lines and knew it. They just ended up all self righteous because that's what they learned from Oliver.

muscles like this!
Jan 17, 2005


Well they all know that Thea has absolutely nothing to do with Team Arrow so attacking her is lovely.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

It absolutely was lovely. That's why I said it was splitting hairs.

But like she's also a trained assassin/vigilante who has both Oliver and Merlyn's learning so could probably kick all the Outsiders' asses. Also she was part of the whole "protect the murdering psychopath" thing. So again... not quite "civilian" but "splitting hairs"

Ultimate point is everyone's lost perspective.

TwoPair
Mar 28, 2010

Pandamn It Feels Good To Be A Gangsta
Grimey Drawer

STAC Goat posted:

I don't think the Outsiders were really meant to be presented in a more sympathetic light. Curtis clearly knew he was crossing a line with Diggle and the whole narrative was about both teams just crossing line after line with each other.

But it was definitely clumsy the way they did that last scene. Like it makes sense that since Rene is the one most hurt Team Arrow would so up and care while the Outsiders would be angry. And the "we're done" speech was kind of a natural result of the episode. But the way it was presented it definitely made the Outsiders look like they were taking a holier than thou stance despite knowing what they did.

There's lots of other clumsy timeline and dramatic stuff but I don't care about that because I know what show I've been watching for the last five and a half years.

I don't know, I think they were supposed to be sympathetic, which is stupid. They cross lines, but the only time they (and the show) even acknowledge it is the John thing. Stuff like bugging Oliver is (as written) supposed to be seen as a clever ploy, not as another betrayal of trust. Otherwise they just go "oooh that darn Oliver is so distrustful :argh:" while Rene and Curtis just kind of brush off Dinah's seething rage. It's just so goddamn stupid.


That said even if it is corny, the one shining spot in this episode for me was Oliver going "I have failed this city".

Chokes McGee
Aug 7, 2008

This is Urotsuki.
kay well that was stupid. Think I'm checking out until next season now.

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001

VictorianQueerLit posted:

Curtis highroading Felicity when his team came to murder someone, started firing guns at unarmed civilians, shot felicity, tried to kill Oliver, assaulted Quentin, almost crippled Diggle by hacking his medical implant and caused the city to lose it's money.

The highroading I found funny because if you would have talked to Wild Dog he would have just said some poo poo like "Hoss, we were fighting and poo poo happens next time maybe it'll be you in this bed this changes nothing"

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

TwoPair posted:

I don't know, I think they were supposed to be sympathetic, which is stupid. They cross lines, but the only time they (and the show) even acknowledge it is the John thing. Stuff like bugging Oliver is (as written) supposed to be seen as a clever ploy, not as another betrayal of trust. Otherwise they just go "oooh that darn Oliver is so distrustful :argh:" while Rene and Curtis just kind of brush off Dinah's seething rage. It's just so goddamn stupid.

Well the bugging wasn't treated as a line to cross because Team Arrow already crossed that line. So from the Outsiders' perspective they were just matching. The Diggle thing was a new line being crossed for either team and was treated that way by both sides.

I think we're supposed to sympathize with the Outsiders. Dinah is grieving and her anger at Laurel is justified, they're all right to be angry at Team Arrow for bugging them and not trusting them, and even Rene betraying Oliver was about his kid and Oliver acknowledged he might have done the same. And the episode ends with Rene hurt badly so it put them in the worse for wear position, which is how i think we end up getting them feeling the most wronged and Team Arrow backing off out of respect.

But its kind of unquestionable that the point of the episode was that both teams were crossing lines and the big scene came with Curtis talking Dinah down from crossing another as their friends were all lying around hurt. The ending hospital scene just ends up being the last word said on the subject so makes it play like Outsiders having the high ground. But like, if we go by what we saw instead of what the Outsiders said I think we can all assume that they're still just as ethically challenged as they were mid episode.

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


Sir Potato posted:

I suppose I'm also in the minority in actually really appreciating how far off the deep end Quentin has gone with Laurel. It's super creepy and uncomfortable what he's doing, but as usual Blackthorne is pulling it off.
He's about the only character who's not terrible right now. After everything that's happened to him over the last few years, it actually kind of makes sense for him to be like this.

TwoPair posted:

I don't know, I think they were supposed to be sympathetic, which is stupid. They cross lines, but the only time they (and the show) even acknowledge it is the John thing. Stuff like bugging Oliver is (as written) supposed to be seen as a clever ploy, not as another betrayal of trust. Otherwise they just go "oooh that darn Oliver is so distrustful :argh:" while Rene and Curtis just kind of brush off Dinah's seething rage. It's just so goddamn stupid.
The Outsiders actions and motivations are just complete nonsense.

:argh: You betrayed our trust by not trusting us!
:what: Rene betrayed us all by literally betraying us.
:argh: Yours is worse somehow.


:downs: You shouldn't murder Laurel, murder is bad!
:j: I'm definitely going to though.
:downs: But what about the money we need?
:j: Well, maybe we can torture her first.
:downs: But torture is also bad!
:j: I'm still going to do it.
:downs: OK but you shouldn't kill her though.
:j: I already told you I'm going to do that.
:downs: OK well let's go find her then!


:argh: We're here to fight you and murder Laurel, even though two of us don't want to!
:what: I'm not going to let you murder anyone.
:argh: Well you'd better not fight us when we attack you!
:what: I- what?
*fight*
:argh: I can't believe you fought us when we attacked you and stopped Dinah from murdering Laurel (even though we also didn't want her to do that)! We hate you even more now!


STAC Goat posted:

they're all right to be angry at Team Arrow for bugging them and not trusting them, and even Rene betraying Oliver was about his kid and Oliver acknowledged he might have done the same.
Oliver spied on them. They spy on people all the time. Rene was actively working against them and hiding it. Like, there are definitely better ways that Oliver could have handled it, but how are Dinah and Curtis so angry with Oliver and not at all with Rene? And why are Curtis and Rene so blase about Dinah's crazy vengeance angle? And why are Dinah and Rene fine with Curtis still working with Felicity outside of their vigilantism? Their team makes absolutely no sens on any level. The only thing they have in common is that they're annoyed about being spied on, and even that doesn't make any sense for Rene since he was actually doing the thing that Oliver suspected him of! You can't get angry about not being trusted when you're actually untrustworthy and you know it!

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

Tiggum posted:


Oliver spied on them. They spy on people all the time. Rene was actively working against them and hiding it. Like, there are definitely better ways that Oliver could have handled it, but how are Dinah and Curtis so angry with Oliver and not at all with Rene? And why are Curtis and Rene so blase about Dinah's crazy vengeance angle? And why are Dinah and Rene fine with Curtis still working with Felicity outside of their vigilantism? Their team makes absolutely no sens on any level. The only thing they have in common is that they're annoyed about being spied on, and even that doesn't make any sense for Rene since he was actually doing the thing that Oliver suspected him of! You can't get angry about not being trusted when you're actually untrustworthy and you know it!

I think simplifying the Outsider breakup to the spying is missing the big picture. They were clearly angry that they were treated like second class members of the team and weren't trusted. And Dinah was worked up about all the Vigilante stuff. There were a lot of serious issues at play that all go back to Oliver's well worn character flaws, trust issues, and hypocrisy. And what really kind of made the divide was Felicity and Diggle being on board with him drawing a clear divide.

Again, I'm not saying the Outsiders are in the right. Rene talking to the cops. Dinah protecting Vigilante and wanting to kill Black Siren at the cost of the city. Curtis hacking Diggle's arm. These are all clear lines they crossed and wrong actions. The show has said as much. But they split from Team Arrow because they all see each other as equals while they realized that Oliver, Felicity, and Diggle would never see them as partners on Team Arrow.

I actually think that's a bigger hurdle to getting this team back together than all the line crossing stuff. Because like, no matter what happens going forward if Oliver says "yeah, it will be different this time" they'd be dumb to think he'll actually hold to that the next time he's tempted to keep a secret or divide lines of who he trusts.

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001

I thought Oliver was pretty open this season. He literally walked away from the group and let them run the show. He spied on a group of new guys when he found out there was a mole that compromised the entire team.

TwoPair
Mar 28, 2010

Pandamn It Feels Good To Be A Gangsta
Grimey Drawer
Frankly the dumbest thing about the whole conflict is Curtis (and Felicity I guess) harping about them not sharing information. I mean no matter how you look at it, that is objectively bad for the city. Let them tackle problems differently if you want, but it is a Bad Thing© to let your crimefighting friends run around in the dark.

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

Its my party
and I'll die if
I want to
I like how Joe Toy owns basically the entire City while the heroes are busy loving off with their personal issues.

And I guess this episode answers a question I've had for a while; Rene's bullets I guess are non-lethal?

Mr Beens
Dec 2, 2006

twistedmentat posted:

I like how Joe Toy owns basically the entire City while the heroes are busy loving off with their personal issues.

And I guess this episode answers a question I've had for a while; Rene's bullets I guess are non-lethal?

Rene has always been a totally stupid member of the team, he has never brought anything other than "dual wields full auto pistols".

Sir Potato
May 26, 2012

PO-TAY-TOES
Boil 'em, mash 'em, cook 'em in a stew
My favorite part of the whole New Team Arrow vs. Old Team Arrow is that Echo Kellum (Curtis) tweeted after the episode aired to favorite for NTA and retweet for OTA and the ratio was overwhelmingly OTA. Like, I feel like everyone involved thinks they're producing some even-handed argument, but they're not. It's not even close.

Mr Beens posted:

Rene has always been a totally stupid member of the team, he has never brought anything other than "dual wields full auto pistols".

Has it ever actually shown him hitting anything?

VictorianQueerLit
Aug 25, 2017

TwoPair posted:

Frankly the dumbest thing about the whole conflict is Curtis (and Felicity I guess) harping about them not sharing information. I mean no matter how you look at it, that is objectively bad for the city. Let them tackle problems differently if you want, but it is a Bad Thing© to let your crimefighting friends run around in the dark.

This is the CW though so the 30 year old former Olympic athlete needs to have a Taylor Swift "We are never, ever, getting back together" moment.

"Renee tried to kill someone that didn't want to fight him and got hurt when they defended themselves. No more information sharing, I don't even want to hear your name." *cue linkin park song*

oh jay
Oct 15, 2012

Stupid thing that I don't think was mentioned yet.

They obviously wrote the storyline of the team team breaking up wanting to have an awesome Civil War fight between the two. Then when they actually write the episode, they cripple Diggle 30 seconds before the fight so it's just another Oliver vs a bunch of mooks fight, like in every other episode.

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

Its my party
and I'll die if
I want to

Mr Beens posted:

Rene has always been a totally stupid member of the team, he has never brought anything other than "dual wields full auto pistols".

Yea, he's basically the #1 reason I keep thinking "why am I still watching this show?" because he ads nothing to the show other than just being the guy who always is giving pushback against what ever everyone else is doing.

"I'm going to get some coffee"
" I don't think that's a good idea Hoss, you should be drinking tea"

Its pretty bad that Legends is ten times better than Arrow now.

howe_sam
Mar 7, 2013

Creepy little garbage eaters

Legends is amazing though, so that ratio seems about right.

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001

I liked Rene before the split. His job working for Oliver showed his growth and maturation as a person, he provided some non Felicity snark and light sarcasm, and he was a more effective fighter in the field than t sphere throwing Curtis.

Rocksicles
Oct 19, 2012

by Nyc_Tattoo

twistedmentat posted:

I like how Joe Toy owns basically the entire City while the heroes are busy loving off with their personal issues.

And I guess this episode answers a question I've had for a while; Rene's bullets I guess are non-lethal?

Hitler gets one of these right across the windpipe, Roosevelt changes Thanksgiving to Joe Toye Day, pays me ten grand a year for the rest of my loving life.

VictorianQueerLit
Aug 25, 2017
The contrast when they all got ready to fight and Digg starts pointing a gun at people and Rene starts blasting away made me think of this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epVpOAWa0pE

bamhand
Apr 15, 2010

WhyteRyce posted:

I liked Rene before the split. His job working for Oliver showed his growth and maturation as a person, he provided some non Felicity snark and light sarcasm, and he was a more effective fighter in the field than t sphere throwing Curtis.

Yeah, and he was actually good at his job working for Oliver. Like he turned out to be a charismatic speaker.

Blaise330
Aug 13, 2007

GOD'S FAVORITE CHAMPION
6 seasons in and the villain is loving..... Diaz. I'm assuming season 7's villain wont be darkseid.

Feenix
Mar 14, 2003
Sorry, guy.
At this point, I’m just hate-loving this show. :/

bamhand
Apr 15, 2010
Is Diaz from something? Or was he introduced this season?

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK
Sep 11, 2001



This Lance plotline is still real bad. "I'm changing her."

Oh good, more League of worthless assassins crap.

bamhand posted:

Is Diaz from something? Or was he introduced this season?
This season and he's still barely a character. "I am Ricardo Diaz and I am a super crimelord. I know everything!" :v: I like how everyone in the episode was talking about how scary / smart / powerful Diaz is because the writers know they didn't build him up at all.

Psychepath
Apr 30, 2003
I miss even the tiniest bit of explanation for a scene like the cops watching Roy going out for a burger, Thea jumping through a clearly Diggle-sized vent after suiting up for the first time in a year because the vents are too small, and then a SWAT team shows up for absolutely no reason.

The writers just stopped caring, I guess.

Narcissus1916
Apr 29, 2013

This season is neck-and-neck with the back half of Season 4 right now.

That half was a poo poo show, but it was an INTERESTING poo poo show. Oliver fighting his way through a goddamn underground Stepford Wives Suburban Bunker kept me wide awake.

This has not.

Phenotype
Jul 24, 2007

You must defeat Sheng Long to stand a chance.



CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:

This Lance plotline is still real bad. "I'm changing her."

Oh good, more League of worthless assassins crap.

This season and he's still barely a character. "I am Ricardo Diaz and I am a super crimelord. I know everything!" :v: I like how everyone in the episode was talking about how scary / smart / powerful Diaz is because the writers know they didn't build him up at all.

No, he totally beat up that guy just now, and told him that karate matches aren't the same as people actually trying to kill you, so you know he's a badass. What more do you need?

TwoPair
Mar 28, 2010

Pandamn It Feels Good To Be A Gangsta
Grimey Drawer
Maybe it's just that anything would be better than last week messing with my head, but I actually thought last night was pretty good.

ApeHawk
Jun 6, 2010

All the NPCs will look up and shout, "Do this quest!"
and I'll whisper, "Sure, why not."
"Hey Dinah and Lance, let's talk about the corrupt police INSIDE the police building!"

Yes, I know they turned the cameras off, but still, that was stupid.

Digital Jedi
May 28, 2007

Fallen Rib
It was and they were in an interrogation room I believe so someone easily could be on the other side of the 2 way mirror.

VVV I think there was? I'll rewwatch it later.

Digital Jedi fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Mar 9, 2018

TwoPair
Mar 28, 2010

Pandamn It Feels Good To Be A Gangsta
Grimey Drawer
Was there even a mirror in that room?

Honestly though, I'm glad they're already addressing the corruption rather than saving it for some almost-end-of-season twist. I mean they'll probably treat it as a big reveal when they find out the commissioner is dirty, but still, it feels like the show is course correcting after veering way into crazy town.

muscles like this!
Jan 17, 2005


The Diaz stuff might have been better if he hadn't been such a nothing character in the first half of the season. Also Roy sure got beefy while "on the run."

howe_sam
Mar 7, 2013

Creepy little garbage eaters

Dig yanking an arrow out of a dude, shooting him, then stabbing another dude with the arrow was pretty boss.

nooneofconsequence
Oct 30, 2012

she had tiny Italian boobs.
Well that's my story.

They've seemed to abandon all pretense of Oliver only shooting to wound. He shot that one dude full in the chest.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

I think the standard for quite awhile now has been "No assassinating dudes if it's avoidable but when in a gunfight with private armies equal force is ok."

I mean, Diggle and Rene have been carrying around guns for awhile now.

Oliver doesn't have a "don't kill" rule as much as an "exhibit self control and don't kill as a first resort" rule. That was basically the resolution of the Darkh, Ra's, and Prometheus stuff.

STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Mar 10, 2018

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nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013





I want everyone on this show who's not Thea or Laurel to go away... which is ironic because I think Willa Holland doesn't want to be on this show anymore either :v:

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