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distortion park
Apr 25, 2011


Our graduate hires all do their first 3-6 months on the support/ops desk. It really helps them gain a feel for how the company works and gives them contacts throughout the company. Then when they join a more dev focused team they know what matters and normally come in with lots of ideas. It helps that the support team all do some dev work, and devs are expected to support their own apps.

Still doesn't mean that the grads know much about coding though.

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Mao Zedong Thot
Oct 16, 2008


how tf do you graduate with a cs degree and be literally unable to program? did i accidentally go to a good school or something?

Shaman Linavi
Apr 3, 2012

if my experience is anything to go by, they graduate by bugging people around them to share their work and just turn that in

i took a class where the prof wanted us all to do Pair Programming. my partner rarely showed up after the first day so i was stuck doing all the work solo. i also ratted his rear end out and the prof was cool with me just putting my name on stuff. almost felt a little bad about it but dude told me he would handle the last assignment for the class and flaked on that too

qhat
Jul 6, 2015


Mao Zedong Thot posted:

how tf do you graduate with a cs degree and be literally unable to program? did i accidentally go to a good school or something?

This is me after 9/10 phone interviews

SamDabbers
May 26, 2003



Shaman Linavi posted:

hella same
also seen a lot of places where the only junior positions specify "must have graduated college in the last year" or something

translation: we want the young and naive so we can pay them as little as possible

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016


:cheers:


pointsofdata posted:

Our graduate hires all do their first 3-6 months on the support/ops desk. It really helps them gain a feel for how the company works and gives them contacts throughout the company. Then when they join a more dev focused team they know what matters and normally come in with lots of ideas. It helps that the support team all do some dev work, and devs are expected to support their own apps.

Still doesn't mean that the grads know much about coding though.

this is actually a pretty decent idea if your company is large enough to handle it

Mao Zedong Thot posted:

how tf do you graduate with a cs degree and be literally unable to program? did i accidentally go to a good school or something?

yup.

PokeJoe
Aug 24, 2004

hail cgatan


the range of people applying to programming roles includes people who are 100% full of poo poo so it's best to cut them early with incredibly basic coding questions

Mao Zedong Thot
Oct 16, 2008


i've seen a lot of mid-career people that are completely useless, and that's not surprising sadly, hence fizzbuzz. But out of a new grad I would expect someone relatively dumb, but also with base level competence

The MUMPSorceress
Jan 6, 2012


^SHTPSTS

Gary’s Answer
Cs programs are now riddled with people who aren't actually into the subject matter at all but heard you can get paid a lot to program. They don't engage with the courses but don't switch programs because sunk costs, and then graduate having gamed their way to a degree without absorbing any material.

Also 18-22 year olds just don't loving appreciate the education they're receiving and gently caress around on their phones during class. It really stuck out to me how disengaged they were as an adult going back to school.

jony neuemonic
Nov 13, 2009

cis autodrag posted:

Also 18-22 year olds just don't loving appreciate the education they're receiving and gently caress around on their phones during class. It really stuck out to me how disengaged they were as an adult going back to school.

yeah i'm a much better student in my 30s, probably because i appreciate how much time and money this is costing me.

qhat
Jul 6, 2015


Younger students are 70% at university to party and get laid a lot.

PokeJoe
Aug 24, 2004

hail cgatan


traditional college students are teenagers for half of school so it's not surprising at all they don't pay attention. im sure I'd be a better student now that I was then

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


yeah i dont think i would do schooling again unless im really into it.

Bored Online
May 25, 2009

We don't need Rome telling us what to do.

qhat posted:

They cannot program. I don't mind if they are bad as long as it's fixable, but I shouldn't have to explain what inheritance is to a new graduate.

i was chatting with an old high school pal and he has been programming for four five years and makes six figgies. i had to be explain inheritance to him and im a fuckwad just getting into upper division courses. how? is basic knowledge really this selective in computer jobs?

carry on then
Jul 10, 2010

by VideoGames

(and can't post for 10 years!)

Mao Zedong Thot posted:

how tf do you graduate with a cs degree and be literally unable to program? did i accidentally go to a good school or something?

i wonder this frequently




northern arizona: top 50????

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Dongslayer. posted:

i was chatting with an old high school pal and he has been programming for four five years and makes six figgies. i had to be explain inheritance to him and im a fuckwad just getting into upper division courses. how? is basic knowledge really this selective in computer jobs?

getting jobs seems to be related more to networking and nepotism than it is actual skill sometimes

carry on then
Jul 10, 2010

by VideoGames

(and can't post for 10 years!)

Dongslayer. posted:

i was chatting with an old high school pal and he has been programming for four five years and makes six figgies. i had to be explain inheritance to him and im a fuckwad just getting into upper division courses. how? is basic knowledge really this selective in computer jobs?

i knew a few other students who could easily end up like this because they were passable programmers but absolutely positively did not care about any material that did not interest them personally. like, sit in class with arms folded, bad mouth profs with careers older than they were, etc.

turns out they're terrible to work with too!

PokeJoe
Aug 24, 2004

hail cgatan


how do you make it years without understanding inheritance :psyduck:

i mean I guess you could work only in a language without it?????

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

qhat posted:

We're hiring co-ops at the moment and trying to find ones that can even program at all is very difficult. I have to keep reminding myself that even though we need more hands doing the easy stuff, the cost of wasting my time on someone who cannot grasp the very basics of programming will far outweigh any benefit of an additional person.

no co-op / intern will ever produce more than they cost you

it's a recruiting effort, not a way to get work done

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

SamDabbers posted:

translation: we want the young and naive so we can pay them as little as possible

that's what a "junior" position is already

not sure why you would need illegal age discrimination in there, too. what's wrong with a 60 year old who wants to be underpaid in exchange for valuable job experience?

4lokos basilisk
Jul 17, 2008


Pollyanna posted:

getting jobs seems to be related more to networking and nepotism than it is actual skill sometimes

Yeah, I even would go as far as saying that as long as your school was not a straight up diploma mill, if you were driven, paid attention, learned stuff also from the internet and by doing practical projects and exercises you got a good education, no matter if it was a top-something school or not.

Some schools just have it better in terms of networking & nepotism, there's not a lot someone can do about that besides to be rich or have amazing grades and do research work as soon as possible so that you can apply to some scholarship at a big name school. Obviously these strategies are not for everyone so my solution was to just pay attention and make sure I learn as much as I can by understanding concepts and the reasoning behind them (don't just memorize). I am still a dumbass but it seems maybe I am not the dumbest around anymore.

Shaggar
Apr 26, 2006

Mao Zedong Thot posted:

how tf do you graduate with a cs degree and be literally unable to program? did i accidentally go to a good school or something?

maybe, but also consider unless you did a coop or side work you got paid for, you cant really judge your skills in the context of the real world.

this is not a problem as nobody is expecting CS grads to know how to program irl. you goal should be to get somewhere that can mentor you and your mentor's goal should be to turn you from a time sink into a productive employee.

Shaggar
Apr 26, 2006
networking and nepotism are good and you should never be afraid of exploiting your connections.

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Mao Zedong Thot posted:

how tf do you graduate with a cs degree and be literally unable to program? did i accidentally go to a good school or something?

i recently interviewed a dude with an MS CS who couldn't manage fizzbuzz

Shaggar
Apr 26, 2006
and I'm not even talking cant do fizzbuzz I'm talking about grads who can do basic programming but cant understand why they'd ever do something like validate input

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

move fast, break things

Shaggar
Apr 26, 2006
also new grads always want to reinvent every wheel instead of just using the appropriate library. you have to break them of that pretty quick.

qhat
Jul 6, 2015


Notorious b.s.d. posted:

no co-op / intern will ever produce more than they cost you

it's a recruiting effort, not a way to get work done

They're subsidised in Canada so it costs us very little in hard capital. So if they end up really bad then shove them in a corner doing a project no-one cares about for rest of their term.

Jimmy Carter
Nov 3, 2005

THIS MOTHERDUCKER
FLIES IN STYLE
current recruiting status:

it’s been 3 weeks since interview and no response yet so I guess I didn’t completely bomb, because they’d let me know immediately if that were the case right :ohdear:

DaTroof
Nov 16, 2000

CC LIMERICK CONTEST GRAND CHAMPION
There once was a poster named Troof
Who was getting quite long in the toof

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

what's wrong with a 60 year old who wants to be underpaid in exchange for valuable job experience?

at that age overworking them might kill them instead of merely drive them out of the industry

qhat
Jul 6, 2015


Jimmy Carter posted:

current recruiting status:

it’s been 3 weeks since interview and no response yet so I guess I didn’t completely bomb, because they’d let me know immediately if that were the case right :ohdear:

If you've been waiting longer than 2 weeks you should email asking for an update.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


i would be extremely worried if junior engineers didnt know what inheritance was

HoboMan
Nov 4, 2010

ugh, my resume suuuuucks

as a stem-lord i am completely helpless to make it better

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


anonymize and post it

HoboMan
Nov 4, 2010

as a junior dev working with a few other junior devs i quickly found out that just indenting my code properly so it was readable easily put me in the top 10% of our work group

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


HoboMan posted:

as a junior dev working with a few other junior devs i quickly found out that just indenting my code properly so it was readable easily put me in the top 10% of our work group

wow

maybe im not as awful as i think :unsmith:

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


im still kinda mad that at my last job everything took the form of "one guy writes all the code and does all the architecting and makes all the decisions, and the other engineers just copy his code and tweak it slightly"

i will not join a project like that again

jesus WEP
Oct 17, 2004


spending time on yospos makes you underestimate you are ability because you think everyone in the world is as good as tef or mononqc

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
while this is true the software development interview process is a fickle beast and success or failure is only weakly correlated with programming ability at best

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4lokos basilisk
Jul 17, 2008


Sapozhnik posted:

while this is true the software development interview process is a fickle beast and success or failure is only weakly correlated with programming ability at best

ftfy, because I personally prefer to work with people who are amicable and with whom it is fun to solve problems rather than some code wizard who is unapproachable and terrible to work with

that said good luck if you think 6-8 hours of sporadic face to face time is enough to estimate this quality accurately

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