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Kudaros
Jun 23, 2006
From this chat I feel like my physics and math education was more instructive in programming. Albeit scientific computing, not whatever real people do.

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Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Kudaros posted:

From this chat I feel like my physics and math education was more instructive in programming. Albeit scientific computing, not whatever real people do.

howso? legit question, not being an rear end

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016


:cheers:


Shaggar posted:

networking and nepotism are good and you should never be afraid of exploiting your connections.

yup. my dad could have gotten me a real cushy gig out of college that i turned down out of pride. 6 years later i kick myself constantly over it as i've just now caught up to where i would have been had i taken him up on it.

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
Slippery Tilde

Mao Zedong Thot posted:

how tf do you graduate with a cs degree and be literally unable to program? did i accidentally go to a good school or something?
You don't indicate a country, but CS colleges in the US choose whether to seek accreditation. Lots of them don't and then they have a choice of what to teach and how to teach it, sometimes influenced by whatever companies sponsor the program or the narrow interests of the faculty

Star War Sex Parrot
Oct 2, 2003

Accreditation is a vague word that carries varying levels of significance:

Regional accreditation is important. National accreditation usually means a for-profit school. ABET accreditation is pretty pointless for CS but exists

Star War Sex Parrot fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Mar 10, 2018

Kudaros
Jun 23, 2006

Pollyanna posted:

howso? legit question, not being an rear end

Speaking strictly in the scientific computing domain, my program had a number of options. I double majored in math and physics. There were routes you could take where you barely used a computer. I specialized in condensed matter physics but joined a lab early on and did a lot of computational simulations for carbon nanostructures including graphene, and other (at the time) hypothetical 2d materials. Before that, or around the same time, I took two classes that hurled me into a depression: computational physics and numerical analysis. I had no real programming experience, or classes, before that. The computational physics one had me reproducing work in atomic physics using fortran of all things (actually a good language imo, for its purpose, and for learning), while the numerical analysis used computational fluid dynamics problems, using C, as its mode of teaching.

The point is that all the core concepts in a subject like (I guess?) data structures and algorithms are always on ones mind. As is memory management and computational complexity. Like, I need to know if this thing is going to take something on the order of minutes, hours, or millenia to calculate. I sometimes would get lazy and just assume things would work out. I'd come back a day later and the thing is still running. I would estimate the number of operations for each step and get something on the order of 10^20 seconds. Thats a bit of time.

Getting the job done at all was a huge task and a great, but frustrating way of learning. It felt good to later on produce a beautiful animated visualization of flows. They just kinda expected you to figure it out, and I'm sure I've got some bad, fossilized habits (that's why I lurk some of these programming threads here -- to get rid of them), but just doing a thing and loving it up and staying up all night and day drinking coffee works.

Math department had some discrete mathematics courses which helped me immensely in understanding how to think about computer operations.

I took an intro to programming class in the CS department, in C, later in my undergrad, and it helped me better structure my code and understand things like case switching, that I hadn't really used. But otherwise it was very basic and not challenging. I assume higher level courses would have been, and many of my peers have come out of that program fairly proficient, in my estimation. But the best ones always had a ton of side projects.

I've got a lot of experience in related areas, which when synthesized, might actually approximate the subject matter of a CS degree. But I've never studied it formally, which is something I think hurts me. I've got books and internet though. It's a sore spot for me in many ways.

I couldn't make you a GUI to save my life. I've never used Java, C#, or .Net. I love python now because all the stuff that was obnoxious to think about in C is just kinda there. I would still use FORTRAN over anything for a particular, but very limited, class of problems. But I struggle thinking about Python in the way one builds a backend in Django or Flask. It's just high level methods to me and I prefer to work close to the metal, so to speak. I'm uncomfortable when I don't understand how things work at least at some lower level, so I don't do well with that sort of thing anyway. I will never be a software engineer, but I can write you a fizzbuzz. I can write some fibonacci poo poo. But I prefer to do it on paper first, think about how cool it is, then do the programming thing.

I also have a lot of experience interfacing a bunch of devices using LabVIEW, which has it's own contribution to thinking about data flows and such. I was basically actually interested in all the work described here. Judging by the chat, that alone goes a long way. I don't think I could study programming for programming's sake. It has to be a means to an end. Although as I worked my way through grad school I found myself becoming more and more interested in computing as a topic of it's own.

Incidentally, in my job search, I've had only two callbacks and one interview, which I thankfully got. I start in a week and I'm nervous as hell someone will find out how lovely a programmer I am.

edit: this is a lot of text that just says that building stuff matters I guess.

Kudaros fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Mar 10, 2018

Progressive JPEG
Feb 19, 2003

if you're coming in straight out of college and you refrain from breaking everything in you're first week then your already ahead of the curve so don't worry about it too much

if you know what langs/tools they're using it can't hurt to read up on them and try them out a bit on your computer (assuming you have one)

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
Slippery Tilde

Star War Sex Parrot posted:

Accreditation is a vague word that carries varying levels of significance:

Regional accreditation is important. National accreditation usually means a for-profit school. ABET accreditation is pretty pointless for CS but exists
For those fortunate schools that are already top ranked abet accreditation is pointless, for the rest it serves to check the school from defining CS education however suits it. My opinion on this is informed by my undergrad experience where the curriculum reflected the pet interests of senior faculty (numerical comp and formal methods) and was terribly weak in everything else, where the professors promised to teach things they didn't actually bother to (I got a degree in something else)

TerminalRaptor
Nov 6, 2012

Mostly Harmless
I really wish I could post about what a raging dumpster fire my workplace is turning into, but I'll have to save that until I end up at a new job. it's also sad because I don't want to leave, but they are doing everything humanly possible to convince me otherwise, and I don't see it getting better for at least a year.

a buddy of mine got me a phone screen with their tech guy at a smaller shop next week. when I had their HR screen this week I told them what I considered an absurd increase for my desired salary and they didn't even blink. it makes me wonder how horribly underpaid I am as well.

PokeJoe
Aug 24, 2004

hail cgatan


my job is a huge dumpster fire too, my boss made one of my co-workers so angry that he walked out and didn't come back all week and has pretty much just refused to talk to him in general lol

Arcsech
Aug 5, 2008
did a phone screen with an internal recruiter for a place this week, got asked for my salary requirements, asked what the band for the position is

midpoint for the range is about a 50% raise. what the gently caress

e: well okay, ~20% raise just considering base salary. including bonus target it’s ~50%

kloa
Feb 14, 2007


do not count on that bonus being there when it comes time to get paid

also bonuses are taxed at like 50% :wtc:

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016


:cheers:


kloa posted:

also bonuses are taxed at like 50% :wtc:

lol get a load of this guy

ThePeavstenator
Dec 18, 2012

:burger::burger::burger::burger::burger:

Establish the Buns

:burger::burger::burger::burger::burger:
My school was ABET accredited but it's kind of necessary for them because the only other degrees they offer outside of 30+ engineering disciplines are Business, Actuarial Science, Construction Management, and Nursing so without accreditation and reputation they're hosed.

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

kloa posted:

do not count on that bonus being there when it comes time to get paid

also bonuses are taxed at like 50% :wtc:

nice humble brag about making over 400k in California

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

ThePeavstenator posted:

My school was ABET accredited but it's kind of necessary for them because the only other degrees they offer outside of 30+ engineering disciplines are Business, Actuarial Science, Construction Management, and Nursing so without accreditation and reputation they're hosed.

engineering programs are required to be ABET accredited so you can actually become a PE. they started accrediting these programs a century ago

ABET started accrediting CS programs like 20 years ago. it will remain completely irrelevant unless the programming PE exam starts to matter. however an ABET accredited CS degree will still not prepare you for the morning section of the FE exam

basically ABET got involved when CS programs were moved from colleges of arts/sciences to engineering colleges

Analytic Engine
May 18, 2009

not the analytical engine

hobbesmaster posted:

nice humble brag about making over 400k in California

In NYC my $10k bonus was taxed at ~50% and my salary sure as hell wasn't

big shtick energy
May 27, 2004


trap sprung I guess on a guy that doesn't know the difference between withholding and actually paying tax

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

qhat posted:

They're subsidised in Canada so it costs us very little in hard capital. So if they end up really bad then shove them in a corner doing a project no-one cares about for rest of their term.

the pay isn't the cost that matters. it's trivial. the subsidy doesn't matter.

it's the time spent by senior staffers, mentoring

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Analytic Engine posted:

In NYC my $10k bonus was taxed at ~50% and my salary sure as hell wasn't

that is your every-day marginal tax rate. 28% fed + 8% payroll + 7% state + 4% city = 47%. (or, if you are a little bit wealthier: 33% + 8% + 1% + 7% + 4%, including the medicare surtax.)

poo poo stacks up pretty fast.

Mao Zedong Thot
Oct 16, 2008


mods pls change my name to bonus taxes

prisoner of waffles
May 8, 2007

Ah! well a-day! what evil looks
Had I from old and young!
Instead of the cross, the fishmech
About my neck was hung.

Your experience may not be typical for a software engineer or programmer, but math and physics are really good disciplines for reasoning about and seeing through logical constructs and their practical application. Keep learning skills, asking coworkers how the hairy, complicated stuff works, and thinking and you'll probably do fine.

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

DuckConference posted:

trap sprung I guess on a guy that doesn't know the difference between withholding and actually paying tax

your witholding is essentially estimated tax paid out of each paycheck

the only ways that it differs from literally paying estimated tax:
  • there is a special form for it (w-4) and you don't have to accompany it with any worksheets that explain how you came to your figure

  • it's mandatory -- if you earn wages you are subject to witholding. (pre-paying estimated tax is, sometimes, voluntary)

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene
oh yeah also: do not gently caress up your witholding in your favor. if you withold too much, you gave the government an interest free loan. inconvenient, but not a big deal.

if you withold too little, you are subject to a cash penalty and you have to pay estimated tax in addition to witholding. imagine filing your tax return four times a year.

the cash penalty is small but lol at quarterly filing, gently caress that so hard

Fiedler
Jun 29, 2002

I, for one, welcome our new mouse overlords.

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

7% state + 4% city

... why do people live in New York?

qhat
Jul 6, 2015


More like gently caress doing your tax returns ever. In other civilised nations, your tax returns are done automatically if you're not self employed and the government automatically gives you your rebate. At this point it's a social welfare program for tax agency employees.

jony neuemonic
Nov 13, 2009

Fiedler posted:

... why do people live in New York?

uh, because it's new york. if you like big cities i imagine there's no greater luxury.

Mao Zedong Thot
Oct 16, 2008


Fiedler posted:

... why do people live in New York?

new york is pretty good

it will ruin all other american cities for you, like whats the point in somewhere equally lovely but lacking all the good bits

cheque_some
Dec 6, 2006
The Wizard of Menlo Park
bonuses sometimes get withheld at a higher marginal rate because they're extrapolated out as if they're one paycheck for a full year salary instead of a one-time bonus

there's no special tax rate for bonuses, they're just taxed as regular income, that's the point

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
doing my own taxes is a huge pain in the rear end but i refuse to give a penny to tax prep companies on principle

Fiedler
Jun 29, 2002

I, for one, welcome our new mouse overlords.

jony neuemonic posted:

if you like big cities

Ah, yes, that's right. I forgot some humans enjoy living in hives.

Workaday Wizard
Oct 23, 2009

by Pragmatica

Fiedler posted:

Ah, yes, that's right. I forgot some humans enjoy living in hives.

i find the size and density of cities doesn’t matter nearly as much as how much open space it has and how wide and walkable the streets are.

FamDav
Mar 29, 2008

Fiedler posted:

Ah, yes, that's right. I forgot some humans enjoy living in hives.

a thing a normal person says

champagne posting
Apr 5, 2006

YOU ARE A BRAIN
IN A BUNKER

Sapozhnik posted:

doing my own taxes is a huge pain in the rear end but i refuse to give a penny to tax prep companies on principle

you could just live in a place that's not terrible and actively tries to make taxes easier to figure out

in a well actually
Jan 26, 2011

dude, you gotta end it on the rhyme

Boiled Water posted:

you could just live in a place that's not terrible and actively tries to make taxes easier to figure out

fairly sure international migration is involves more paperwork than a 1040

TerminalRaptor
Nov 6, 2012

Mostly Harmless
My entire bonus for last year was 1k(pre-tax) because as a development manager I'm responsible for sales targets somehow.

qhat
Jul 6, 2015


my company is great right now because developers get literally no say in the deadlines that sales arbitrarily set according to whenever their target company receives a new batch of funding. they then get paid no overtime to hit that deadline, but they do receive the promise of a bonus if they hit the deadline which never happens because it's physically impossible with the current resources. so in the end they work overtime anyway, miss the deadline, the sale falls through and sales gets no commission, but it's okay because a month later sales goes on to sell the same system to another customer and receives commission on that, while the devs who worked overtime on it receive nothing.

Progressive JPEG
Feb 19, 2003

PCjr sidecar posted:

fairly sure international migration is involves more paperwork than a 1040

you say that but

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


qhat posted:

my company is great right now because developers get literally no say in the deadlines that sales arbitrarily set according to whenever their target company receives a new batch of funding. they then get paid no overtime to hit that deadline, but they do receive the promise of a bonus if they hit the deadline which never happens because it's physically impossible with the current resources. so in the end they work overtime anyway, miss the deadline, the sale falls through and sales gets no commission, but it's okay because a month later sales goes on to sell the same system to another customer and receives commission on that, while the devs who worked overtime on it receive nothing.

that product sounds like a ripoff and a racket

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TerminalRaptor
Nov 6, 2012

Mostly Harmless

Pollyanna posted:

that product sounds like a ripoff and a racket

enterprisesoftware.txt

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