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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Captain America was told the absurd, cynical lie that post-World War II history was created by Nazi Illuminati, and he accepted it. Then forgot about it apparently. He doesn't forget about it if you are paying attention. Think about the movies with Cap post Winter Solider. In Age of Ultron, the film opens with Cap and the team raiding a Hydra base. In Civil War Cap does not want himself or the team to be under a government's control, one can assume that is partially because he has witnessed Hydra's infiltration of the government. The last known place Cap ends up is likely the only country even more under the radar than Hydra was.
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Mar 14, 2018 12:27
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kartikeya posted:
Whom did he murder? Genuine question, I don't remember the movie that well.
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Mar 14, 2018 14:08
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Spacebump posted:He doesn't forget about it if you are paying attention. Think about the movies with Cap post Winter Solider. In Age of Ultron, the film opens with Cap and the team raiding a Hydra base. In Civil War Cap does not want himself or the team to be under a government's control, one can assume that is partially because he has witnessed Hydra's infiltration of the government. The last known place Cap ends up is likely the only country even more under the radar than Hydra was. An evil computer tells him that history has been controlled by Nazis for decades. There's even a montage of the things that Nazi Illuminati supposedly influenced behind the scenes. Captain America accepts this non-sense, and like you say, basically becomes an anti-government conspiracy theorist. But he doesn't seem to care that much about the last sixty years of US history being swayed by Nazi Illuminati, specifically. Crimpolioni posted:Whom did he murder? Genuine question, I don't remember the movie that well. That one prisoner, to fake his death with help from Justin Hammer. He presumably didn't deserve a mention because he was a prisoner. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Mar 14, 2018 |
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Mar 14, 2018 14:15
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temple posted:nakia was woke twitter actually protesting instead of retweeting it. So Kilmonger is a triple agent that stands for fraudulent internet marxists (Well known for being reactionaries). Since the film Black Panther is not about oppression, what is Nakia's revolutionary act in opposition to?
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Mar 14, 2018 21:41
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KVeezy3 posted:So Kilmonger is a triple agent that stands for fraudulent internet marxists (Well known for being reactionaries).
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Mar 14, 2018 21:50
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Isn't your take on the film that it's not about oppression? Who is Nakia taking a revolutionary act against?
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Mar 14, 2018 21:58
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KVeezy3 posted:Isn't your take on the film that it's not about oppression? Who is Nakia taking a revolutionary act against?
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Mar 14, 2018 22:06
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:The scene of a vigilante flying into Afghanistan to kill vastly outmatched insurgents is kind of an appalling fantasy scenario, to be honest. Agree, it's the worst scene in the movie and makes it harder to recommend. But BP does essentially the same thing in the Nigerian convoy scene.
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Mar 15, 2018 03:55
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Renoistic posted:Agree, it's the worst scene in the movie and makes it harder to recommend. But BP does essentially the same thing in the Nigerian convoy scene. He doesn't have a magic gun that separates insurgents from civilians and cleanly kills one, but not the other, so it's less troubling than the Iron Man scene.
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Mar 15, 2018 03:56
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plus they let one of the insurgents go because they recognise that he had about as much choice in the matter as the women they kidnapped, because he too was taken and forced to serve. this logic isn't exactly enforced consistently, even within the movie itself, but it's a step up from iron man's blatant fantasy of collateral-free warfare
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Mar 15, 2018 04:49
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temple posted:i didn't see it as hosed up, why is tribal combat and chanting hosed up? Jesus christ, yes, determining who leads your country via single combat is dumb. Portraying Wakanda as a place where the primary qualification for leadership is being able to gently caress another guy up with a knife is dumb, if you're trying to, as the movie clearly is, portray it as an aspirational place where Africa was able to reach it's full potential without being devastated by colonization. It's uncomfortably close to 'noble savage' racist tropes. In a normal fantasy setting it would still be dumb, but I found it especially jarring here because this is supposedly, within the context of the movie, a contemporary nation inhabited by humans, not Asgard or someplace.
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Mar 15, 2018 06:27
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The trial by combat is supposed to be where he "earns" the mantle, but he's being challenged by royals and their champions, who are only up there by favoritism just the same. Then he has to cheat and get the flower back just to stand up to Killmonger. Asgardian drama revolves around succession, so they had to have some kind of divergence, but it's just an intersectional mess.
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Mar 15, 2018 08:42
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Yeah, I don’t agree with the ‘actually, the guy who wanted world chaos and white genocide should have been the protagonist’ takes at all, but the fact that the film never really deals with the fact that the protagonist is an unelected absolute (or at least only accountable to only a handful of nobles) monarch whose qualifications for office are having the right dad and being good at stabbing makes me kinda agree with the people saying it’s at least somewhat reactionary. A quick scene that makes clear the council is the real political power and the combat is normally just ceremonial pomp and circumstance would have been good.
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Mar 15, 2018 11:07
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themrguy posted:Jesus christ, yes, determining who leads your country via single combat is dumb. Portraying Wakanda as a place where the primary qualification for leadership is being able to gently caress another guy up with a knife is dumb, if you're trying to, as the movie clearly is, portray it as an aspirational place where Africa was able to reach it's full potential without being devastated by colonization. It's uncomfortably close to 'noble savage' racist tropes. I was going to side with temple for a second there, because I missed the “combat” part of that sentence, and was going to point out that while tribal chanting is has a slight whiff of orientalism, national anthems are a thing, and there’s normally a ton of tradition revolving around parliamentary functions. But yeah, ritual combat to determine leadership is hilariously backward. Seriously, what possible virtues are there to such a system? On a more general note, problem as I see it is there are two differing themes in the movie, and they aren’t really explored deeply enough to reconcile them. On one hand you have the wonders of Wakanda, the representation of an Africa untouched by colonialism. In isolation, Wakanda are a united people with great mineral wealth that they use to improve the lives of all of their citizens. They have harmonious groups of cultures and traditions, they respect their land, they aren’t aggressive to their neighbours, and so on. If the film was set entirely in Wakanda, then Wakanda would make for a good allegory of a Pan-African nation, and a representation what the West has taken from Africa. But then you have Wakanda's interactions with the outside world, and the central conflict about it's future, which is more of an allegory about how the West should act to the rest of the world, because they enjoy the advantages over the rest of the world that Wakanda enjoys over them. Wakanda no longer represents something that could have been, or an ideal to work towards, but a place that exists in a fictional world that’s a reasonably direct representation of our modern day. Suddenly the conveniences used to insert Wakanda into the MCU, such as Wakanda’s isolationism, begin to draw criticism because of the parallels they draw. Wakanda’s isolationism despite the instability and poverty on their borders, their greed with their natural resources, their prosperity without trade, their culture without exchange, are basically the core philosophies of the alt-right. Wakanda is becomes the least Pan-African nation possible, being racist to literally everyone else, and zero concept of a shared unity between other black people. They also descend into a coup and a civil war in a hilariously short amount of time, though given their election process involves murdering political rivals, I suppose a civil war is their version of a legal challenge. What Wakanda could represent does not mesh with an actual representation of Wakanda. This is why I think temple’s arguments fall flat quite a bit; the arguments are based on the former reading and ignoring the later. At one point the claim was made that it was racist to assume that the outreach centre was placed in Oakland because T'Challa felt sorry for the kids (because that would imply that blackness equates to pitiful), and not because he felt something similar in them. But then later he admitted that Wakandans and T'Challa would have no concept of blackness, so what similarity is he supposed to be relating to? Nevermind that these arguments rely on the assumption that the characters and viewer can only see this scene through purely racial lines, not through an economic advantage lens, or the literal stated reason of a symbolic location with nothing to do with race. Temple’s claims about the “Who are you?” line have a similar issue. Originally the claim was made that the kid asked the question because he didn’t know that black heroes existed in the MCU, though this was dropped for a statement about how the lack of Pan-Africanism makes black people strangers to each other (also probably because Falcon and Warmachine exist in the MCU), and this was the one true way to read that line. And not at all because it has multiple meanings; it starts as an earnest question from a kid seeing a person making a space ship materialise in front of him, the very foundation of the Doctor Who running gag, it relates to T'Challa on a deeper level, because of his journey and how his character will shape Wakanda and the world, and on a meta level, because while the kid inside the MCU has black heroes, the kid outside the MCU that the kid represents, does not. But if we only view the movie through a Pan-African lens, then I guess it’s about Pan-Africanism. The worst bit is, I feel like these two different aspects could have been merged with only slightly more effort. Play up the Wakandan Tribal Council more, and tone down how advanced Wakanda is and the role of the king. If Wakanda military is advanced but not functionally invulnerable, looking at the rest of Africa as to how the outside world deals with Africa’s natural resources, isolationism would be a natural survival response. However, isolationism would have drawbacks, like making them more vulnerable to droughts and other natural disasters, and the humanitarian cost of not helping neighbouring countries to maintain their advantage. Different council members want different outcomes for Wakanda, and have actual proper debate about real-life policies, but keeping the advanced and prosperous Wakanda. Killmonger is introduceed and becomes a disruption to the status quo; his challenge to ritual combat is based on some ancient law that’s never been used in millennia, but eeeevil isolationist councillors, who don’t like T'Challa’s humanitarian ideals, allow it. Evil councillors get their comeuppance when they become aware of Killmonger’s plan and confront him, and get killed with an accompanying villain line like “You want to keep Vibranium to yourselves? Here, take it” *vibranium spear stab*. Killmonger frames the West, creating an actual reason for a civil war. T'Challa has to save his people and the world from war, and doubles down on his belief that isolationism and economic disparity leads to too much hatred and misery, and vows to use his rule for the betterment of all. Instead we get the strange mashup of an inspirational fantastical land, but completely tone deaf situations, like the CIA agent helping to overthrow a foreign government and launching drone strikes while being one of the good guys.
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Mar 15, 2018 11:31
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Ubik_Lives posted:Killmonger is introduceed and becomes a disruption to the status quo; his challenge to ritual combat is based on some ancient law that’s never been used in millennia, but eeeevil isolationist councillors, who don’t like T'Challa’s humanitarian ideals, allow it. Evil councillors get their comeuppance when they become aware of Killmonger’s plan and confront him, and get killed with an accompanying villain line like “You want to keep Vibranium to yourselves? Here, take it” *vibranium spear stab*. Killmonger frames the West, creating an actual reason for a civil war. T'Challa has to save his people and the world from war, and doubles down on his belief that isolationism and economic disparity leads to too much hatred and misery, and vows to use his rule for the betterment of all. this isn't better, its just different. the idea that wakanda used ritual combat and then had it employed to undermine them is criticism enough. its like one bad faith argument after another. here's how to fix the film kid: "Who are you?" t'challa: (faces the camera) "Wakanda is really backwards culturally and THE WEST does everything better. We will emulate THE WEST and also be better than them simultaneously because after all, we must be perfect because we are truly a utopia."
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Mar 15, 2018 12:25
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You were defending the ritual combat one page ago, and now it's clearly undermining them? Ignoring the fact they actively use it and yet they have ended up with a prosperous space age civilisation. Yeah, it's really been biting them in the rear end. Also I have no idea where you're pulling this West emulation stuff from, especially since I've stated that a close-minded Wakanda is a critisim of the West, not a virtue. If you think the only possible illustration of African government is a murdertocracy, that's on you.
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Mar 15, 2018 12:56
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Complaining about the The first time plays out like a fun story for babies where nobody was "really" bad and everyone makes up at the end and everyone cheers, and the second time it plays out like a CIA-trained maximum rear end in a top hat making GBS threads up your world.
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Mar 15, 2018 13:06
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Ubik_Lives posted:You were defending the ritual combat one page ago, and now it's clearly undermining them? Ignoring the fact they actively use it and yet they have ended up with a prosperous space age civilisation. Yeah, it's really been biting them in the rear end. i didn't defend it, i said they were backwards. but really, its their form of government and it worked for thousands of years. as an american, i can't judge anyone else's government process considering our leader.
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Mar 15, 2018 13:06
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Like, Wakanda isn't the only possible idea for a black utopia, it's just one that a couple of old white dudes in the 1960s came up with while Wakanda's key characteristics, as presented in the film are total isolation, fervent adherence to tradition, and boundless technological advancement. But those things can't be reconciled. It's like how you can't reconcile the existence of evil with an omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent God.
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Mar 15, 2018 13:25
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sean10mm posted:Complaining about the That sounds like it's pretty much what these kind of rituals usually come down to both in fiction and real life; while technically binding, they soon or immediately become a glorified ceremony to show off the new king's prowess, and in this case a form of ritualised protest for the gorilla tribe, and the heir apparent has the best training and experience for the most part and can be safely expected to win. Kind of the point of Erik is that he's unprecedented in Wakandan history (as far as we know, anyway) as a half-Wakandan raised in the outside world with a claim to the throne but a completely different mindset. Someone who doesn't give a poo poo about the  and gets enough people on his side because they see a chance to do things their way.
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Mar 15, 2018 13:27
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Black Panther is a wealthy man who has been handed everything his whole life. He became ruler because his dad was a ruler, he was given superpowers because he is more privileged than any other man in the country. When he loses fairly in a duel, he stages an uprising to get his power back Truly an idol, an icon for young black children all over the world to look up to
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Mar 15, 2018 13:53
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Fartbox posted:Black Panther is a wealthy man who has been handed everything his whole life. He became ruler because his dad was a ruler, he was given superpowers because he is more privileged than any other man in the country. When he loses fairly in a duel, he stages an uprising to get his power back
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Mar 15, 2018 14:00
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Probably not a 1%:er on magical steroids
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Mar 15, 2018 14:02
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What about a war veteran on magical steroids?
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Mar 15, 2018 14:11
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temple posted:its amazing you know what black children should look up to. You should probably stop posting if all your going to do is race bait instead of actually responding to the point.
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Mar 15, 2018 14:15
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bushisms.txt posted:You should probably stop posting if all your going to do is race bait instead of actually responding to the point. temple's real crime is biting on a lazy Hot Take made by a chronically creepy shitposter.
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Mar 15, 2018 14:18
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Inescapable Duck posted:What about a war veteran on magical steroids? Even Captain America endured some hardships (used to be frail and weak) and took a great risk getting his steroids (experimental procedure) and then he was still ever only a soldier, not a privileged ruler of a country Black Panthers origin story is weak as gently caress. It could have been interesting if they delved a bit more into the monarchy and what it entails to be the Black Panther ruling over this super-society but what they presented never satisfied me
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Mar 15, 2018 14:20
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kartikeya posted:Killmonger says (mostly) all the right things, but at no point does he walk his talk, and none of his history that we get suggests he ever has, nor do the glimpses we see of him using his power once he gets it suggest that he actually will. Coming in late, but the most telling thing is when Killmonger orders the burning of the herb garden. The priest says "what about the next king?" and Killmonger replies, "what next king?" In that moment his colours were shown. He's not Malcolm X preaching revolution; he's just another Joseph Mobutu. He doesn't care about the future of Wakanda, nor its present or its past. He's in it for his own personal gain. Supporting evidence: the Bling Panther suit is akin to the traditional full dress uniform with all the medals as favoured by your typical tinpot dictator. T'challa rejects it because he wants to do things, not to be seen doing things. Killmonger takes it because it suits his station.
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Mar 15, 2018 14:23
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He also shows his colors when he says he wants to conquer the entire world
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Mar 15, 2018 14:26
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Fartbox posted:Black Panthers origin story is weak as gently caress. It could have been interesting if they delved a bit more into the monarchy and what it entails to be the Black Panther ruling over this super-society but what they presented never satisfied me Yeah, it's definitely a case of the protagonist being the most boring character in the movie. Maybe that's why the MCU rarely has interesting villains, because every time they do (here, Thor 1, Spider-Man) they easily outshine the heroes.
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Mar 15, 2018 14:27
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Fartbox posted:He also shows his colors when he says he wants to conquer the entire world If he wanted to conquer the world for his people, to build an empire for the future, that's different to wanting to conquer it for himself.
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Mar 15, 2018 14:30
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Jedit posted:Coming in late, but the most telling thing is when Killmonger orders the burning of the herb garden. The priest says "what about the next king?" and Killmonger replies, "what next king?" In that moment his colours were shown. He's not Malcolm X preaching revolution; he's just another Joseph Mobutu. He doesn't care about the future of Wakanda, nor its present or its past. He's in it for his own personal gain. Killmonger is correct to abolish monarchy, by the way.
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Mar 15, 2018 15:02
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Killmonger is correct to abolish monarchy, by the way. Killmonger created a military dictatorship.
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Mar 15, 2018 15:19
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Says something about the naïveté of hereditary monarchy.
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Mar 15, 2018 15:23
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Killmonger is correct to abolish monarchy, by the way. You want me to come over there and quote Plato on yo' pasty white rear end?
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Mar 15, 2018 16:01
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KVeezy3 posted:So Kilmonger is a triple agent that stands for fraudulent internet marxists (Well known for being reactionaries). Since people are talking about the effect of Hydra post-WW2, and the reasons Killmonger had the ideas about oppression that he did, it could be argued, in the marvel universe, that Hydra purposely created the conditions that led to an oppressed African American community, which directly led to the king's brother attempting a coup, which ultimately created Killmonger. Hail Hydra, indeed.
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Mar 15, 2018 16:13
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Ubik_Lives posted:But yeah, ritual combat to determine leadership is hilariously backward. Seriously, what possible virtues are there to such a system? It provides the blessings of a god. Recall that T'Challa had been the Black Panther before, but it was only after the ritual combat that becoming the Black Panther let him visit an authentic afterlife. Believable that the procedures for the divine rule of kings are a bit harder to overthrow when the divinity is real and potent.
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Mar 15, 2018 17:21
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The existence of actual superpowers does kinda throw it for a loop. Superhero-kings have come up a lot, usually in a negative light, but there's arguments that it's just a logical extension of actually using their power to make society a better place rather than just preserving the status quo.
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Mar 15, 2018 22:45
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Killmonger is correct to abolish monarchy, by the way. His reign will also end with his death, lasting no longer or any more permanently than that of any of the other monarchs.
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Mar 15, 2018 23:02
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Hand Knit posted:His reign will also end with his death, lasting no longer or any more permanently than that of any of the other monarchs. That seems like a good thing. Also, the one remaining flower is the only thing that allows the T’Challa partisans to stage their coup, so it seems like he was onto something.
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Mar 15, 2018 23:05
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