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Vern says that John Woo's Manhunt is good. http://outlawvern.com/2018/03/15/manhunt/ I'm waiting until May to see it on Netflix.
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Mar 15, 2018 18:58
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I thought Manhunt was pretty good. Nothing amazing and of course a far cry from Woo's better films, but still a fun time.
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Mar 15, 2018 19:58
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While we're on Woo, has anyone done anything like his Red Cliff movies worth watching? I was rewatching them the other night, and I've been playing a lot of Total War, I'm in the mood for some cool battle scenes. I know there's a lot of Three Kingdoms movies, but most of them are long, and, due to Sturgeon's law, will be bad.Tezcatlipoca posted:That sequence about editing the two shots together to show the impact of the elbow is my everything. What he didn't mention, and what I think makes most of Jackie Chan work, is how a huge number of his fights spend a fair amount of their time with Jackie moving. If he's fighting 20 guys, he'll create a whole bunch of distance first, and he just fights the first guy to catch up to him. Then, as the second guy catches up, he moves on, slowly whittling his opponents down. You end up with a scene where Jackie fights a small army, but you never wonder 'why didn't they all rush him?' Which ties into the other thing, Chan gets that action is story. It needs structure, and its players need to act in a way that's consistent with their character and where their character is at. It's amazing how few film makers get this.
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Mar 16, 2018 00:43
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Snowman_McK posted:While we're on Woo, has anyone done anything like his Red Cliff movies worth watching? I was rewatching them the other night, and I've been playing a lot of Total War, I'm in the mood for some cool battle scenes. I know there's a lot of Three Kingdoms movies, but most of them are long, and, due to Sturgeon's law, will be bad. What is it specifically you are looking for more of? More Three Kingdoms set films? Just historical epics with good fights, or something really long that focuses on just one or two battles like that one? The first thing one that comes to mind is Chang Cheh's The Heroic Ones. A few centuries later, but still historical and the action is really good. Also probably a good idea for any serious Woo fans to check out Chang, he was a huge influence. The version on amazon is unfortunately English dubbed only, but there is a blu-ray out with the original audio. A little further off, but I'd say maybe just in the same ballpark if you want an epic with sweet fights (and some good song and dance) are the two Baahubali films. Very fun historical fantasy with some very large and spectacular battles. Lots of CG effects which aren't quite Hollywood level in looks but I love what was done with them.
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Mar 16, 2018 01:15
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I watched the bastardized Red Cliff version (two movies mashed together) and it was fun. Not particularly memorable, but not bad at all. I was a bit weirded out by their choice of casting Takeshi Kaneshiro as Zhuge Liang, but then I learned he's Taiwanese-Japanese anyway. (I would like some Chinese war epics too)
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Mar 16, 2018 06:37
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FancyMike posted:What is it specifically you are looking for more of? More Three Kingdoms set films? Just historical epics with good fights, or something really long that focuses on just one or two battles like that one? Just that style of big, elaborate, violent period action film. Ideally Asian or at least East of the Rhine, which gives us pretty broad scope.
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Mar 16, 2018 06:53
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When the gently caress does Triple Threat come out?
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Mar 16, 2018 16:25
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Coming back to the Yen vs Chan debate, I think one of the things that appeal to me about Chan is his fights are about overcoming his opponents through desperation, luck, and endurance. Whereas Yen's fights tend to just demonstrate his mastery and dominance of opponents.
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Mar 16, 2018 19:12
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You think Yen’s bad, you oughta look at some of Seagal’s old stuff. It’s absurd how god-tier untouchable he’s made out to be in his fight scenes. I mean he kills Tommy Lee Jones like five times in as many seconds at the end of Under Siege. That element of give-and-take in a fight scene is really important. Not just in terms of pacing, but in terms of establishing stakes for the protagonist. When they’re not there, it’s very noticeable.
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Mar 16, 2018 19:19
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Marked for Death is one of his best films, not at all for the crazily reactionary story, but just for the fight scenes. And a big part of that is that he actually takes some punches here and there. Seagal's a really interesting personality. He's mentally stuck at the age of 13 where you worship heroic violence, but he has to somehow resolve that with his hippie-lib New Age beliefs, and the results are something to behold. It really shouldn't be a surprise that he went full on right-wing conspiracy nut in his old age. (Nor that he's a rapist.)
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Mar 16, 2018 19:24
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I mentioned it in my initial impression, but the new Adkins joint Accident Man is kind of a return to the "untouchable man of action" style of fighting. He take a few hits but he's firmly in control at all times. No real overcoming or struggle until the final fight.
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Mar 16, 2018 19:37
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Fart City posted:You think Yen’s bad, you oughta look at some of Seagal’s old stuff. It’s absurd how god-tier untouchable he’s made out to be in his fight scenes. I mean he kills Tommy Lee Jones like five times in as many seconds at the end of Under Siege. At least Tommy Lee Jones gets to flick a knife around and look kind of cool; the most egregious one to me is in Out for Justice where Seagal doesn't fight a hopelessly outmatched William Forsythe so much as beat him half to death then finish him off with a corkscrew to the head. Still, when he was at the top of his game physically, didn't Chan once say Seagal was the one western action star he didn't think he would be able to beat in a real fight?
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Mar 16, 2018 20:43
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Wheat Loaf posted:Still, when he was at the top of his game physically, didn't Chan once say Seagal was the one western action star he didn't think he would be able to beat in a real fight? Well Seagal was one of the few American action stars around that time that had actual training in a martial art, it's not like Arnold or Stallone could actually fight, and Van Damme also had very little actual training. So I feel like the answer was really Seagal by default and maybe Jackie not wanting to sound arrogant by saying nobody could beat him. Surprised he didn't say Chuck Norris actually.
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Mar 16, 2018 20:52
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Basebf555 posted:Surprised he didn't say Chuck Norris actually. I feel like he'd have made the comment in the 80s; did Chuck Norris still do a lot of martial arts in his movies in the 80s? In all those Cannon movies, his martial arts aren't really emphasised so much as him mowing guys down with machine guns.
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Mar 16, 2018 20:54
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Seagal has never been even a little bit legit as a fighter. If he is intimidating it's because he's big and tall and used to be in decent shape.
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Mar 16, 2018 20:55
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Halloween Jack posted:Seagal has never been even a little bit legit as a fighter. If he is intimidating it's because he's big and tall and used to be in decent shape. Definitely not, but he's at least trained in a few different martial arts. Training doesn't mean fighting ability, BUT I do think there was a bit of Jackie trying to be modest there too.
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Mar 16, 2018 20:59
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Halloween Jack posted:Seagal has never been even a little bit legit as a fighter. If he is intimidating it's because he's big and tall and used to be in decent shape. Wasn’t there a story about Seagal bragging about kicking Van Damme’s rear end at a party JCVD was throwing, and him running away when JCVD tried to cash that check?
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Mar 16, 2018 21:10
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Basebf555 posted:Well Seagal was one of the few American action stars around that time that had actual training in a martial art, it's not like Arnold or Stallone could actually fight, and Van Damme also had very little actual training. So I feel like the answer was really Seagal by default and maybe Jackie not wanting to sound arrogant by saying nobody could beat him. "Professional karate" and kickboxing leagues have generally been a shitshow of rinky-dink feds that all use different rules, are terrible at keeping records, and were never popular enough to be widely televised, which fostered these debates over who was a better fighter, or even a real fighter at all. Van Damme isn't Chuck Norris, but he has actually competed in something beyond touch-contact. Basebf555 posted:Definitely not, but he's at least trained in a few different martial arts. Training doesn't mean fighting ability, BUT I do think there was a bit of Jackie trying to be modest there too. X-Ray Pecs posted:Wasn’t there a story about Seagal bragging about kicking Van Damme’s rear end at a party JCVD was throwing, and him running away when JCVD tried to cash that check? Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Mar 16, 2018 |
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Mar 16, 2018 21:16
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"Seagal was a legit fighter" is most definitely NOT a hill I'm looking to die on, I'm just trying to explain why Chan may have singled him out for praise like that. I guess it may have just been his intimidating look.
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Mar 16, 2018 21:18
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Halloween Jack posted:Van Damme is infinitely more legit than Seagal. Van Damme spent his time on the set of Street Fighter getting high as poo poo on mountains of coke and carrying on a not-so-secret affair with Kylie Minogue. Dude has always done whatever the hell he wants.
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Mar 16, 2018 21:19
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Fart City posted:You think Yen’s bad, you oughta look at some of Seagal’s old stuff. It’s absurd how god-tier untouchable he’s made out to be in his fight scenes. I mean he kills Tommy Lee Jones like five times in as many seconds at the end of Under Siege. I totally agree. Seagal has always been about abusing his stuntmen in increasingly bloody ways. Yen's fights, even at his most arrogant, are always a marvel to behold.
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Mar 16, 2018 21:27
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I liked Seagal as an enjoyable trash-tier action star through Under Siege doing gross arm snaps and poo poo. But he kept getting fatter and giving less of a poo poo about anything, and of course was always a huge rear end in a top hat IRL. e: I love the  facial expressions he pulls in almost all the screen shots here.http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Above_the_Law sean10mm fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Mar 16, 2018 |
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Mar 16, 2018 21:41
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X-Ray Pecs posted:Wasn’t there a story about Seagal bragging about kicking Van Damme’s rear end at a party JCVD was throwing, and him running away when JCVD tried to cash that check? If I remember correctly he actually chased Seagal to his home in a car, parked on his lawn and challenged him, and Seagal never came out. Van Damme chilled about it over time, but will still throw out some burns when prodded Tart Kitty fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Mar 16, 2018 |
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Mar 16, 2018 21:48
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JCVD is a loving freak athlete. Real training or not, someone that crazy loving strong hitting you is going to hit.
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Mar 17, 2018 00:35
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Halloween Jack posted:Van Damme is infinitely more legit than Seagal. For that matter, so is Billy Blanks. Speaking of things that completely fuckin' own: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87oTk73tOmo
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Mar 17, 2018 00:42
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Snowman_McK posted:JCVD is a loving freak athlete. Real training or not, someone that crazy loving strong hitting you is going to hit. I'm actually just rewatching Hard Target right now. Haven't got to the bit where he catches a rattlesnake, punches it out, then pulls off its rattle with his teeth.
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Mar 17, 2018 00:58
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Reminder that Steven Seagal broke the wrist of Sean Connery - who was 53 at the time - on the set of Never Say Never Again while training him in Aikido. Because cool guys always make movie sets unsafe like that.
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Mar 17, 2018 00:58
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Fart City posted:Reminder that Steven Seagal broke the wrist of Sean Connery - who was 53 at the time - on the set of Never Say Never Again while training him in Aikido. Because cool guys always make movie sets unsafe like that. You forgot the punchline of the story, that connery took two years to actually get it diagnosed. Because Sean Connery might be kind of dumb. The best Steven Seagal story is Steven Tobolowsky's. I'd try to recite it, but I can't do it justice. The upshot is that, in addition to being a talented character actor, Tobolowsky speaks fluent Steven Seagal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cUNU8GkMso&t= Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Mar 17, 2018 |
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Mar 17, 2018 01:13
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Didn't Sean Connery have a black belt in karate? I feel like I've read that someplace. Don't know if it's true or not.
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Mar 17, 2018 01:15
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Neo Rasa posted:Speaking of things that completely fuckin' own: Hmm, the only Billy Blanks fight scene I ever remember is this bit of brilliance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jna8FblC3dA
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Mar 17, 2018 01:48
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Wheat Loaf posted:Didn't Sean Connery have a black belt in karate? I feel like I've read that someplace. Don't know if it's true or not. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sOPTsDZIt4&t=2990s
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Mar 17, 2018 02:06
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Fart City posted:Reminder that Steven Seagal broke the wrist of Sean Connery - who was 53 at the time - on the set of Never Say Never Again while training him in Aikido. Because cool guys always make movie sets unsafe like that. okay, this is a little unfair to Seagal, martial arts training is usually not a completely safe thing to do and you're occasionally going to get injured doing it. unless it happened because Seagal hosed something up and/or didn't give Connery proper advice, this isn't really something I can add to his litany of crimes. e: like, pretty much everyone who worked on Mortal Kombat had at least one broken rib by the end of filming, per that oral history that was going around a while back, and those were all seasoned stuntmen who knew martial arts before going in, not an Aikido guy training someone with no experience.
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Mar 17, 2018 03:32
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Wheat Loaf posted:Didn't Sean Connery have a black belt in karate? I feel like I've read that someplace. Don't know if it's true or not. You might be thinking of Honor Blackman who was cast as Pussy Galore (and in Avengers the spy show not the Marvel franchise) because of her martial arts training.
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Mar 17, 2018 04:48
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Neo Rasa posted:You might be thinking of Honor Blackman who was cast as Pussy Galore (and in Avengers the spy show not the Marvel franchise) because of her martial arts training. I know that she did; I just thought Connery did as well. Must have been mistaken. Didn't William Shatner had a black belt in something?
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Mar 17, 2018 12:56
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sean10mm posted:I liked Seagal as an enjoyable trash-tier action star through Under Siege doing gross arm snaps and poo poo. But he kept getting fatter and giving less of a poo poo about anything, and of course was always a huge rear end in a top hat IRL. Please also note the thinning hair line.
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Mar 17, 2018 15:16
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Under Siege was more of a real movie, but I don't know that it's the best STEVEN SEAGAL MOVIE if you know what I mean. The pre-Under Siege movies were all mean-spirited exploitation movies where pre-fatness Seagal did gross poo poo to bad people. They weren't actually good, but they were kind of a breath of fresh air. Stupid, limb-snap-y fresh air. Weirdly, they were often less right-wing than the preceding 80s action movies. Then his brain broke (more) and he became a Putin fanboy and whelp. Also: Ruthless Reviews posted:Seagal encourages a young soldier to occasionally question authority and think for himself. Busy says that Seagal “hates America.” Seagal blows Busy up with a shell the size of my couch.
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Mar 17, 2018 16:16
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Outlaw Vern's book Seagalogy does a really good job of breaking down the different eras of Seagal and going over his obvious pet themes. It actually lays out his evolution pretty well. I just bought Vern's Yippee Ki-Yay-Moviegoer! which is less focused but still includes a ton of writing on action cinema.
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Mar 17, 2018 16:29
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Wheat Loaf posted:I'm actually just rewatching Hard Target right now. Haven't got to the bit where he catches a rattlesnake, punches it out, then pulls off its rattle with his teeth. Speaking of Van Damme, the new Kickboxer movie is pretty rad. I'm not a huge fan of the particular sub-genre or anything, but they managed to bring useless poo poo like plot and dialog to a minimum and focus on what's really important: punching dudes in the face. The first fight starts two minutes into the movie and the main character is beating up like 50 Thai dudes in no time. There's a bit too much slo-mo and/or choppy framerate at times for my taste, but in general it's pretty clear by modern standards. The final fight is pretty epic but if that's not enough, where else are you going to see a blind JCVD fight Mike Tyson?
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Mar 18, 2018 02:10
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Woo had a whole boat chase on the bayou planned for Hard Target, then ended up getting dropped because Van Damme said "nah, I want to ride a horse instead"
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Mar 18, 2018 02:22
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There's plenty of Woo in Hard Target but I feel like it was Van Damme's show more than his. How do you rank John Woo's American movies? I put it down as: 1. Face/Off 2. Hard Target 3. Broken Arrow 4. Mission: Impossible 2 5. Paycheck (I have never seen Windtalkers.)
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Mar 18, 2018 02:27
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