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I mean you don't want to go too far into the Killmonger Was Right zone since, as with The Vulture in the Spider Man movie, it's important to recognize the moral warping that he's subjected to to make sure that Iron Man is still the good guy.
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Mar 15, 2018 23:10
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Hand Knit posted:I mean you don't want to go too far into the Killmonger Was Right zone since, as with The Vulture in the Spider Man movie, it's important to recognize the moral warping that he's subjected to to make sure that Iron Man is still the good guy. i think it's easy to separate the intended characterization of killmonger from the hysterical revisions requested by marvel execs though, like when he randomly adds that he wants to kill everybody's children. there's no need to blindly take every line spoken by him as a fact of his character rather than a reality of the movie being a marvel movie
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Mar 15, 2018 23:27
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what was killmonger's original character in the film, before the revisions?
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Mar 15, 2018 23:39
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The point of Killmonger Was Right is less to say that in no way was Killmonger was wrong, but that he was more right than allowed for in the synthesis viewpoint T'Challa adopts at the end of the movie.
Sir Kodiak fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Mar 15, 2018 |
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Mar 15, 2018 23:39
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so what was t'challa to do?
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Mar 15, 2018 23:48
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Sir Kodiak posted:The point of Killmonger Was Right is less to say that in no way was Killmonger was wrong, but that he was more right than allowed for in the synthesis viewpoint T'Challa adopts at the end of the movie. I'm thinking along the lines that "the radical is actually just motivated by psychological damage (or other past harm) and is just going to take power for themselves" is a pretty common slander. But to recognize that in the movie, then you have to acknowledge that Killmonger really is motivated by selfish reasons and the desire to harm.
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Mar 15, 2018 23:50
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temple posted:so what was t'challa to do? I'd settle for just having the final fight somewhere more visually interesting and, if I'm really feeling greedy, having his character arc (such that there was one) be something other than a morality tale for American politics.
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Mar 15, 2018 23:52
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temple posted:so what was t'challa to do? Fight oppression.
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Mar 16, 2018 00:13
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temple posted:so what was t'challa to do? Not having his personal journey revolve around violently restoring his throne.
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Mar 16, 2018 00:24
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temple posted:so what was t'challa to do? Abolish the Wakandan monarchy, for starters.
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Mar 16, 2018 02:02
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When are people going to learn, democracy doesn't work!!!
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Mar 16, 2018 02:04
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temple posted:what was killmonger's original character in the film, before the revisions? What was Killmonger's face before T'Chaka was born or whatever his dad's name was
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Mar 16, 2018 02:09
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I really hate both credits scenes. The UN one is superfluous after showing the kids in oakland, and the bucky one is pointless and makes idiots wait 10 minutes before i can kick them out of the screen to clean it.
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Mar 16, 2018 04:14
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Samuel Clemens posted:When are people going to learn, democracy doesn't work!!! The people would just elect Killmonger like they elected Trump because the mob wants to watch themselves and the world burn and wallow in self and outward hate.
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Mar 16, 2018 04:28
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got any sevens posted:I really hate both credits scenes. The UN one is superfluous after showing the kids in oakland, and the bucky one is pointless and makes idiots wait 10 minutes before i can kick them out of the screen to clean it. If it's any consolation, I never stick around for those things if I can possibly help it. Ever. I am my own man, and will not subject myself to the whims of corporate filmmaking just for the chance I might know more than somebody else (which is what the internet is for. So naturally, Net neutrality is going away.) Oh yeah, I haven't posted here yet, have I? I liked it. Probably my favorite Marvel movie, not without its flaws, but it has its own aesthetic and I appreciate what it's trying to do.
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Mar 16, 2018 18:26
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temple posted:so what was t'challa to do? This is assuming that T'Challa has capacity for choice. He is a fictional character. The question isn't about what the character should have done, the question is about what the story is about.
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Mar 16, 2018 18:33
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Anyone know what the guitar song was towards like the beginning / middle? Everything on the soundtrack is rap 
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Mar 17, 2018 02:58
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this poem kinda puts the ideological difference between t'challa and killmonger in perspective for me. its easy to call for revolution. what does it mean to be brothers and sisters? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9moWet_gwfY
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Mar 17, 2018 05:42
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Woof, love the man, but you really gonna link respectability politics the poem in here? Heron is talking about keeping your head down and just living, but the movie, just like real life, shows some folks don't have the constitution to handle outright oppression. We can discuss the way he generalizes those folks another time, but you can watch Do the right thing for a summary. One side called for a revolution to save our brothers and sisters. And of course it's not easy, that's the entire point of his character and his "tattoos," which is the opposite of what the heron poem is about, talking while doing nothing. Wakanda doesn't recognize us as anything and in the end only gives lip service to the entire idea. bushisms.txt fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Mar 17, 2018 |
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Mar 17, 2018 14:19
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bushisms.txt posted:Woof, love the man, but you really gonna link respectability politics the poem in here? Heron is talking about keeping your head down and just living, but the movie, just like real life, shows some folks don't have the constitution to handle outright oppression. We can discuss the way he generalizes those folks another time, but you can watch Do the right thing for a summary. as for calling GIL SCOT HERON respectability politics, you should listen to this as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3hCQcrfg28
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Mar 17, 2018 15:36
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In that poem you linked Heron is claiming that anyone repping Africa so hard as to be social pariah in his eyes, isn't helping whatever cause. He thinks just living is enough, which for some is, but for more empathetic folks, it's not. There are some, called hoteps, who are negative to our own women and hold bad values but theyre such a minority within a minority, its not worth conflating them with others like my grandmothers who only wear dashikis and are just as vocal on very similar subjects. Eric shouldn't have to talk to tchalla. Eric and his father were left for dead by Wakanda. T'challa was right to be angry at his father, but he doesn't do anything different than kill their shame. He should've been laying out the welcome mat for him and helping heal him mentally, then have that conversation. But avengers 3 is this year so, no time for that. You keep trying to put this on others like T'challa had no choice. He has the power to do anything and he chose death and complacency. Also notice in that poem, heron is lamenting "black capitalism" even though white America has explicitly explained that isn't a thing, ie Tulsa's Black Wall Street. bushisms.txt fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Mar 17, 2018 |
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Mar 17, 2018 18:09
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I think people complaining about Killmonger being watered down in some way are missing what makes him such a subversive character. Killmonger's ideology isn't wrong. The problem with Killmonger is that he's too broken of a person to ever be an effective vessel for his message. Not because of the bullshit good black/bad black narrative that has been created out of Martin and Malcolm, but because Killmonger has been infected with the worst of America. As much as he hates authoritarianism, he can not shrug off the fact that he is himself an authoritarian. His last lines at the end show how broken a person he is that he cannot perceive any in-between of king and slave. But where the film becomes subversive is how it tries to ensure that it doesn't fall into the good black/bad black narrative. Martin Freeman's character is clear that Killmonger is just using stuff he learned in the CIA. The costume design tells us Killmonger is an authoritarian by dressing him in blue tactical gear, presenting him as a cop. When he become evil black panther, the thing that separates the two are avarice as Killmonger chooses to go with the gold outfit. Killmonger needs to lose because he is a bad person, but that doesn't cheapen his message, it strengthens it. The thing that makes Killmonger such a bad guy are literally all the things he's fighting against. He's a living example of how all that is wrong in America doesn't just break someone materially, but spiritually. It's a marvel movie where the costume design says, "gently caress the police."
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Mar 17, 2018 20:09
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"Being infected with the worst of America" is not a subversive message.
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Mar 17, 2018 20:33
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Timeless Appeal posted:But where the film becomes subversive is how it tries to ensure that it doesn't fall into the good black/bad black narrative. This is a common narrative?
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Mar 17, 2018 20:44
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And it literally does this, with the slow motion shot where Kaluuya takes in the last battle. They don't even learn anything other than bring backup.
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Mar 17, 2018 21:09
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Timeless Appeal posted:I think people complaining about Killmonger being watered down in some way are missing what makes him such a subversive character. yeah i agree with all this. killmonger was wakanda's chickens coming home to roost. wakanda's neglect lead them almost being ripped apart. if t'chaka had reached out sooner, he could have avoided it. t'challa was inheritor of that debt and in no way responsible for it.
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Mar 17, 2018 21:11
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But that's the point of a king. He literally is responsible for it.
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Mar 18, 2018 01:38
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Killmonger would have been alright if he didn't also want to conquer the world and create a wakandan empire that the sun never sets on that's kind of bad
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Mar 18, 2018 02:16
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Killmonger's plan is basically 'The only way to stop them potentially loving us over is to gently caress them over back, harder and worse'. Which has basically been the excuse of all manner of horrific empires historically.
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Mar 18, 2018 04:28
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Random topic change; I brought up in another thread how I found it interesting from my (admittedly very shallow) exposure to African-American cinema and television, there's often subtle or overt Christian overtones or the assumption that African-American characters are likely to be active Christians to some degree. Black Panther on the other hand specifically has African main characters who are active in pre-Christian religions (being a king by divine right being pretty drat active, I'd reckon) and even having an implied cultural conflict due to religious differences, all in a modern-day setting. Of course, that comes from comic book weirdness, but notable that the movie rolled with it, even with Christianity being popular in Africa thanks to extensive missionary efforts and forced conversion. Of course, a lot of that comes from comic book weirdness, but with some plausible elements. The ancient Egyptian gods are probably the only African religion you could expect Western audiences to be even vaguely familiar with outside of very vague and very racist ideas of tribal shamans and that, but it also establishes that Wakanda is a very, very old country, which has been influenced by outside sources but otherwise retained its own culture and identity for a very, very long time. And it's far from implausible that an Egyptian god should be worshipped elsewhere in Africa, given some Egyptian gods became popular in Rome. Similarly, there's actually plausible precedent for the Hindu god Hanuman to have picked up worshippers in Africa, given there's been trade and cultural exchange between India and Africa for millennia. This also establishes that Wakanda is a very diverse country, which has maintained itself and remained apparently stable for an equally long time despite having some pretty clear tribal, cultural and religious divisions, through what appears to be a policy of tolerance and giving representatives of each tribe a voice in the leadership. (and notably the end of the movie has T'challa replace the traitorous general with the chief of the Jabiru tribe, who hadn't been on speaking terms with a king for centuries) Religion is something that the Marvel movies don't touch on much despite one character being nominally a god, for probably obvious reasons, though there's some subtext and potential. Just interesting that it's one of a seeming rare case where black spirituality is explored to some extent in a non-Christian (or even Muslim) context. (The other example that comes to mind, oddly, is Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, where an African-American Starfleet officer well aware of his cultural and racial heritage and history is forced into a messianic sort of role in an alien religion, which he comes to accept and try to use for the good of all, helping Bajorans, Starfleet and even the gods themselves)
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Mar 18, 2018 08:17
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yeah i went with a group of black atheists and we commented on wakanda believing in bast as their god. ancestor worship is a trend now. Its divergent but in line with modern black thought instead of stuff from 50 years ago (which is unique).
temple fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Mar 18, 2018 |
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Mar 18, 2018 18:15
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temple posted:yeah i went with a group of black atheists and we commented on wakanda believing in bast as their god. ancestor worship is a trend now. Its diverged but in line with modern black thought instead of stuff from 50 years ago (which is unique). Wakanda has been around for a while and in isolation. It's not impossible that Egypt got Bast from them.
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Mar 18, 2018 18:31
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Timeless Appeal posted:I think people complaining about Killmonger being watered down in some way are missing what makes him such a subversive character. What you are identifying is precisely why a film about revolution is widely accepted and uncontroversial across the American political spectrum. Woke leftists and alt-righters both agree that it's a moral imperative that Kilmonger must die. Which brings us to the really important question: GORDON posted:Since people are talking about the effect of Hydra post-WW2, and the reasons Killmonger had the ideas about oppression that he did, it could be argued, in the marvel universe, that Hydra purposely created the conditions that led to an oppressed African American community, which directly led to the king's brother attempting a coup, which ultimately created Killmonger. Kilmonger's revolt would clearly be the catalyst for reuniting the lover's quarrel from Civil War. But who would feel more guilty about violently repressing it, Team Iron Man or Team Captain America? I'm on Team Iron Man. KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Mar 18, 2018 |
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Mar 18, 2018 20:18
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https://twitter.com/Chiaunbae/status/975415570765148171
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Mar 18, 2018 21:09
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I approve. Want this cartoon.
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Mar 18, 2018 21:14
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Black Panther tied Avatar for weeks at number 1 and will out gross The Last Jedi before next weekend. I never would have imagined.
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Mar 18, 2018 22:34
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Well, at least something good came of this movie.
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Mar 18, 2018 22:38
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Snowman_McK posted:Well, at least something good came of this movie. A lot of good things came from the movie.
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Mar 19, 2018 00:14
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Inescapable Duck posted:The existence of actual superpowers does kinda throw it for a loop. Superhero-kings have come up a lot, usually in a negative light, but there's arguments that it's just a logical extension of actually using their power to make society a better place rather than just preserving the status quo. The later Dune books actually had a lot of good things to say about this. Basically, it's probably gonna end up bad.
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Mar 19, 2018 00:15
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KVeezy3 posted:What you are identifying is precisely why a film about revolution is widely accepted and uncontroversial across the American political spectrum. Woke leftists and alt-righters both agree that it's a moral imperative that Kilmonger must die. Well, yes, but woke leftists say he must die because he's destabilising legitimate government and fomenting terrorism and alt-righters say he must die because he's black.
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Mar 19, 2018 00:30
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