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Oldsrocket_27 posted:That's okay, if FOH are the kind of people that sigh and piss an moan because they're expected to do their loving jobs on the clock instead of dicking around on their phones while also taking home more money than all the other people in the restaurant busting their asses then who gives a gently caress if those lazy shitbirds hate your guts. Yes everyone deserves more than minimum, but servers easily make the most regardless, and if you're too stupid to understand the connection between a clean dining area/possessing silverware to eat with and a positive dining experience that will influence people's attitudes come tip time, then you're as dense as you are lazy. Do you work at a Denny's? I'm foh at a dump and we all do all of our sidework and then some.
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Mar 17, 2018 16:02
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Maybe we could all be right, and not everyone has the same experience? infiniteguest works in states where servers get paid min wage + tips. I expect anyone in our outlets to work and act professionally, regardless of their pay. You don't have to be a server, you could be a cook, housekeeper, etc. Just because your pay may be lower doesn't mean the standards and culture apply less to you.
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Mar 17, 2018 19:24
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Oldsrocket_27 posted:I work at a place where I’m expected to tend bar and wait tables in addition to cooking if the restaurant needs it, I get a cut a of the tips, and if you aren’t bad at your job it absolutely does. I put 10 years into FoH across my city in venues that ranged from fine dining, to sports bars, to punk vegan joints, to breakfast places (my favorite service), to hipster cocktail joints; I think I was pretty good at those gigs, and was as often behind the wood as on the floor waiting tables. the difference in tips received for great vs. just normal service is around 2%
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Mar 17, 2018 19:52
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JawKnee posted:I put 10 years into FoH across my city in venues that ranged from fine dining, to sports bars, to punk vegan joints, to breakfast places (my favorite service), to hipster cocktail joints; I think I was pretty good at those gigs, and was as often behind the wood as on the floor waiting tables. I think that's about the difference in tips you can expect from handwriting "thank you" and drawing a smiley face on people's checks.
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Mar 17, 2018 19:58
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Indeed. Although according to another study (that I haven't read, so maybe it's full of poo poo), that trick only really works for women 
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Mar 17, 2018 20:01
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JawKnee posted:Indeed. Although according to another study (that I haven't read, so maybe it's full of poo poo), that trick only really works for women So I've been wasting my time.
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Mar 17, 2018 20:02
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Skwirl posted:Every word of this sentence makes me want to punch you in the throat even harder than the last one. Also you didn't say if you were paying them more than minimum wage , so I'm assuming the answer is no. I don't really give a poo poo, because I don't work there, but you're probably pretty safe assuming the entire FOH hates your guts. I don’t think they do? I generally have a good repoire with foh. Keep in mind this is in NYC at a restaurant that attracts some degree of career hospitality servers (people from Cornell and Johnson and Wales) that actually want to put themselves out there to create a better program. We don’t do roll ups, but I’ve watched backwaters and runners race each other to see who could set a 4 top faster. Oh and also eat a dick you shoemaker. Just because you work with people who suck and have lovely attitudes doesn’t mean we all do. My whole team kicks rear end, and we all generally look out for one another.
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Mar 18, 2018 01:14
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Ps. Yes they get paid more than minimum wage.
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Mar 18, 2018 01:14
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I can even break down what people tend to make weekly but IMO it’s pretty fair for the workload and we pay our dishwashers a higher wage than I made as a line cook. If we paid out more in labor I’d probably get fired.
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Mar 18, 2018 01:44
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I'm so glad I got off at 10pm tonight and don't go in till 2pm tomorrow. Or, I get to miss most of the drunks tonight and most of the hungover idiots tomorrow! 
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Mar 18, 2018 06:43
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JawKnee posted:I put 10 years into FoH across my city in venues that ranged from fine dining, to sports bars, to punk vegan joints, to breakfast places (my favorite service), to hipster cocktail joints; I think I was pretty good at those gigs, and was as often behind the wood as on the floor waiting tables. So you're arguing that doing a better job does earn you more tips, but you just don't think it's enough to be worth your precious time? In a discussion where it's being argued that you're not making enough money to work hard, you provide evidence that working harder does in fact make you more money, also including this quote, "The inability of servers to see the relationship between tips and service is important because tips will not motivate servers to deliver good service if the servers do not believe that better service results in better tips." in regards to 50% of servers not believing that better service yield better tips. The study's claim that the correlation is so weak as to be meaningless in the same breath as acknowledging it's consistent existence across a range of studies is as foolish as your continued assertion that being lazier and doing a shittier job is somehow a solution to being underpaid. Lord knows nothing motivates management to pay an employee more better than that employee doing a poo poo job. I do believe that minimum wage is garbage, nowhere near a living wage, and less than anyone in the US should be paid for any work. I want to be on your side here, but you can't use low pay as excuse for not doing your job, especially when that's the sort of behavior that traps you in poor wages instead of earning you raises.
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Mar 18, 2018 17:50
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iospace posted:I'm so glad I got off at 10pm tonight and don't go in till 2pm tomorrow. I gave away my brunch shift today cause gently caress waiting on rich hungover white people. I don't care how good the money is.
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Mar 18, 2018 19:15
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Oldsrocket_27 posted:So you're arguing that doing a better job does earn you more tips, but you just don't think it's enough to be worth your precious time? In a discussion where it's being argued that you're not making enough money to work hard, you provide evidence that working harder does in fact make you more money, also including this quote, "The inability of servers to see the relationship between tips and service is important because tips will not motivate servers to deliver good service if the servers do not believe that better service results in better tips." in regards to 50% of servers not believing that better service yield better tips. The study's claim that the correlation is so weak as to be meaningless in the same breath as acknowledging it's consistent existence across a range of studies is as foolish as your continued assertion that being lazier and doing a shittier job is somehow a solution to being underpaid. Lord knows nothing motivates management to pay an employee more better than that employee doing a poo poo job. Three words my friend: humans are lazy.
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Mar 18, 2018 19:27
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Labor: if you want me to work harder, pay me more money! Capital: if you want to get paid more money, work harder!
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Mar 18, 2018 19:52
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Phil Moscowitz posted:Labor: if you want me to work harder, pay me more money! Once you work harder Capital goes "Why would I pay you more?"
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Mar 18, 2018 20:44
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Field Mousepad posted:I gave away my brunch shift today cause gently caress waiting on rich hungover white people. I don't care how good the money is. Yeah I'm glad st pattys doesn't fall on a Saturday every year, because we got absolutely fisted during brunch. And being boh, that doesn't translate to extra pay. Unless you count the extra hour I stayed after close because our dish guy didn't come in.  Edit: also, if you are the FOH manager responsible for locking up, and boh is running late cleaning up because of being slammed and short two people, don't stand there and loving stare at us thru the pass. Pick up a broom or dry a dish if you want to get out so badly. I actually wouldn't have cared if she was dicking around on her phone or something, but for the last 20 minutes she literally just stood there and glared, like that was gonna get us all out faster. Wtf? JacquelineDempsey fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Mar 18, 2018 |
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Mar 18, 2018 21:26
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My philosophy contains these two elements, among others: 1) A culture of hard work means the restaurant will be more successful as a whole and everyone makes more money. Tip averages might stay within a certain numerical range (particularly so when you pool tips) but if you do 150k in sales vs. 15k, people make more money. This requires good service and hard work. 2) Fat paychecks are awesome but don’t necessarily compensate for the long hours, late nights, weekends and holidays we all sacrifice to do this work. Working in an environment that is challenging, fulfilling, and provides a service you believe in is its own unit of payment.
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Mar 19, 2018 04:49
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no it isn't
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Mar 19, 2018 05:36
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I totally understand taking a pay cut for a less stressful and more enjoyable job, but the idea that the work should be it's own reward is a con by capital to exploit labor.
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Mar 19, 2018 05:47
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Ahahahaha I got told I'm pulling a double on Easter
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Mar 19, 2018 05:58
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Skwirl posted:I totally understand taking a pay cut for a less stressful and more enjoyable job, but the idea that the work should be it's own reward is a con by capital to exploit labor. It’s not a replacement for cash, mind you, but emotional fulfillment is an obvious value factor in seeking a job. I typically sacrifice a little bit of easy money for a job I enjoy and find satisfying.
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Mar 19, 2018 06:14
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infiniteguest posted:It’s not a replacement for cash, mind you, but emotional fulfillment is an obvious value factor in seeking a job. I typically sacrifice a little bit of easy money for a job I enjoy and find satisfying. Yeah having a bunch of money in my bank account fulfills me emotionally as well.
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Mar 19, 2018 06:17
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iospace posted:Ahahahaha I got told I'm pulling a double on Easter infiniteguest posted:It’s not a replacement for cash, mind you, but emotional fulfillment is an obvious value factor in seeking a job. I typically sacrifice a little bit of easy money for a job I enjoy and find satisfying. This is amazing.
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Mar 19, 2018 06:32
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CONFLICT THEORY AND CLASS CONSCIOUSNESS. God drat people, we're all on the same team here.
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Mar 19, 2018 06:42
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Skwirl posted:This is amazing. I’d be interested in reading why you think so: I myself am not scheduling anyone for a double on Easter?
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Mar 19, 2018 07:00
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infiniteguest posted:I’d be interested in reading why you think so: I myself am not scheduling anyone for a double on Easter? You are apparently the best boss in the history of restaurants, most restaurants don't have someone like you. I didn't think you personally scheduled Iospace for a double shift.
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Mar 19, 2018 07:18
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re: the best wine keys https://www.webstaurantstore.com/franmara-2034-01-boomerang-black-waiter-corkscrew-with-cutter/208C2034.html these "boomerang" ones are loving ace. when I moved to germany for grad school, thinking I was an ace at deutsch and ready for all the things I had ahead of me like 'finding a place to live' and 'making money working literally any job', I quickly found I was in over my head and had to spend a week in a hotel to get my bearings. it was a hellish experience and I probably grew from how nuts it was at the time. my first two missions were 'finding literally any food' (doner) and 'finding literally any wine' (cheap muller thurgau), and then 'opening the wine' which was its own mission for reasons that make me laugh now but come on I was a shy 20 something guy being an idiot. my solution was to ask my hotel for a wein-flaschen-offener (which makes no sense) and after a lot of miscommunication and 3 different people trying to help me out, I was finally delivered a corkscrew. it was a boomerang corkscrew with some corporate logo for a local wine distributor on it. I "borrowed" and still have this wein-flaschen-offener and use it multiple times a week, and it's the best thing. I've considered having my logo put on a batch of them for own dumb IT business which has nothing to do with food or wine. If I ever have a business that does anything to do with food or wine, I will probably order 20 crates of them and do an oprah 'YOU get a corkscrew, YOU get a corkscrew, YOU get a corkscrew, EVERYONE GETS CORKSCREWS!!!'. which is objectively a good business model containing 0 flaws, come at me about food costs and profitability bro.
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Mar 19, 2018 07:58
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How long ago was that, if you couldn't find an English speaker in 70% English speaking Germany
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Mar 19, 2018 08:27
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Errant Gin Monks posted:Yeah having a bunch of money in my bank account fulfills me emotionally as well. Eh, at ig's level, or even mine, when you're looking at 60-100k yearly, I'd much rather work in a place where there's a strong culinary culture vs another 5-10k.
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Mar 19, 2018 13:21
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Ig sounds like someone who went to college for restaurant management without ever working in a restaurant and then got a foh manager position at his dad's place.
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Mar 19, 2018 14:13
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Chef De Cuisinart posted:Eh, at ig's level, or even mine, when you're looking at 60-100k yearly, I'd much rather work in a place where there's a strong culinary culture vs another 5-10k. Don't tell other people to take less money just because you have privilege.
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Mar 19, 2018 14:16
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Chef De Cuisinart posted:Eh, at ig's level, or even mine, when you're looking at 60-100k yearly, I'd much rather work in a place where there's a strong culinary culture vs another 5-10k. This is probably true. I make a bit more than that top range and like where i work, so it's understandable you want something that has a culture you enjoy. But for people at the bottom working their way up emotional fulfilment comes a distant firmly in last place to paying bills and eating. Especially FOH
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Mar 19, 2018 15:21
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Tezcatlipoca posted:Don't tell other people to take less money just because you have privilege. Seriously. There's a number of nicer restaurant groups here that are still trying to start cooks at $8 or $9 an hour or whatever which is frankly unlivable, behind the mask of 'reputation' and or 'family'. They put out good food, but loving fast food starts at like $11 or $12. If I were still cooking I'd have to work like 2.5 full time jobs at that just to make rent/mortgage in this city much less afford anything else. gently caress off with that poo poo, think back to where you started in this industry before your steady $60-$100k luxury hotel position with benefits. How vested in company culture were you then, how satisfied were you with your pay, and did the one impact the other? Did you have any significant expenses or dependents relying on you & your presumed embarrassment of a paycheck?
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Mar 19, 2018 16:04
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Field Mousepad posted:Ig sounds like someone who went to college for restaurant management without ever working in a restaurant and then got a foh manager position at his dad's place. I wish! I work back of house, and until recently I was still working the line full time. Five years ago I was at a Momofuku restaurant in NYC, making about 350-400 a week as a line cook living in Brooklyn. This meant roughly 50% of my income went to rent checks. I’m happy I don’t pay my kitchen team that but also I was pretty excited about my job at the time. I learned a ton of new techniques, got to play with a centrifuge, liquid nitrogen, a Rotisol, and also had to do weird stuff like sous vide chicken a la minute or butcher a whole goat as part of a prep list. If I went back to line cooking I would 100% take a fine dining gig for less money over a hotel job at 25 dollars an hour. I ride a bike to work and live on family meal to this day. Having money to save is pretty nice but I was able to put away a little then, too.
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Mar 19, 2018 16:33
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Double: One of my bosses has the title of “culinary director”. Back in the day he was a line cook at Cafe Boulud under Andrew Carmellini. (Who was chef de cuisine at the time.) He got paid 70 dollars a day for shift pay, whether he worked 8 hours or 16. If he worked a double he’d add two hours worth of pay. He claims he loved working there and I know everyone from that team is now a culinary superstar (Tien Ho, Karen Da-something, Rich Torrissi, David Chang, look em up) but IMO that policy is straight up abusive.
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Mar 19, 2018 17:06
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Oldsrocket_27 posted:So you're arguing that doing a better job does earn you more tips, but you just don't think it's enough to be worth your precious time? Possibly? But let's put some numbers to it: At the end of my FoH run I was reliably walking each day with $200-$300 canadian, depending on what shift I was working, and how busy it was that day. IIRC my percentages were reliably in the 17-20 range, but that was (I think) more a product of where I was/the clientele (breakfast joint that had been in the middle of a hippy-turned-yuppie community for 30 years) rather than any particular thing I was doing. I figure that put my personal sales around $1200 to $1800 per shift, which at a joint where the most expensive dish is a $12 huevos rancheros, with no alcohol on the menu, is pretty good I think. Now, we haven't actually hit on a definition of what 'great' vs 'normal' service is, and the study I provided is only concerned with a customer's interpretation of the service they received (in other words, it may or may not be related to 'working harder' as you say); this is kind of important, because if I do need to bust-rear end more than I already am for an extra 2 percentage points (assuming that that actually will happen), its going to mean - in my case, outlined above - an extra $25-$35. That's not nothing, but if I need to haul-rear end over a whole shift for it, in relation to what I would be getting anyway by working at my normal pace, I'm going to laugh in your face every time. quote:In a discussion where it's being argued that you're not making enough money to work hard, you provide evidence that working harder does in fact make you more money, also including this quote, "The inability of servers to see the relationship between tips and service is important because tips will not motivate servers to deliver good service if the servers do not believe that better service results in better tips." in regards to 50% of servers not believing that better service yield better tips. The study's claim that the correlation is so weak as to be meaningless in the same breath as acknowledging it's consistent existence across a range of studies is as foolish as your continued assertion that being lazier and doing a shittier job is somehow a solution to being underpaid. Lord knows nothing motivates management to pay an employee more better than that employee doing a poo poo job. No, you've misunderstood what the study is claiming. It is indeed claiming that there is a positive relationship between perceived better service, and a slightly higher median tip size ('less than 3% in all studies, less than 1% in 3 of the studies'), but it is also claiming that this relationship is tenuous because the range of tip values does not decrease as perceived service increases; in other words, there is no guarantee that you'll hit those median values based on the service you provide, and the study (rightly) concludes that even the median difference is too small for most servers to make the correlation themselves without sitting down and crunching the numbers. Finally: quote:your continued assertion that being lazier and doing a shittier job is somehow a solution to being underpaid Where did I say that, bitch? quote:I do believe that minimum wage is garbage, nowhere near a living wage, and less than anyone in the US should be paid for any work. I want to be on your side here, but you can't use low pay as excuse for not doing your job, especially when that's the sort of behavior that traps you in poor wages instead of earning you raises. lol
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Mar 19, 2018 17:12
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mindphlux posted:re: the best wine keys As much as I also love these, last wine rep we had in for a tasting emphasizes cutting the foil below the lip, and our managers agreed. So I need a blade. I'll probably also get a pronged one for home because it looks cool as hell. I forgot about Corkpops too. These are fun. https://youtu.be/cAhmmfVtinM
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Mar 19, 2018 17:12
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JawKnee: I agree with you in that I think a server killing themselves to refill coffees and bring people toast is stupid and unreasonable. My experience comes from restaurants like Eleven Madison Park or Charlie Trotter’s, etc. (two examples I didn’t actually work for but who I know had a vigorous service program.) Also keep in mind a backwaiter (busser, service support, table decrumber) can make 60k+ annually in that environment. Captains make six figures. This is the pay for “great” service and giving less than great service means you work somewhere else. infiniteguest fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Mar 19, 2018 |
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Mar 19, 2018 17:39
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mindphlux posted:re: the best wine keys That’s a cute story and all, but there are at least three things wrong with that wine key if you are a service professional. I know I disagree with you on pretty much everything, but I swear I’m not just being contrarian here. I would make so much fun of a server or bartender if they brought one of those to work. A fold out knife is infinitely more useful than a stupid foil cutter. You have to open it up to get to the bottle opener? Pass. Only a single lever cork remover? No thanks. Seriously spend the extra $20 and get a Coutale Sommelier Pocket. Pocket By Coutale Sommelier - The French Patented Spring-Loaded Double Lever Waiters Corkscrew and Wine Bottle Opener (Rosewood) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00EP26NAK/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_ET.RAbQY66BZV
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Mar 19, 2018 19:03
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Hauki posted:Seriously. There's a number of nicer restaurant groups here that are still trying to start cooks at $8 or $9 an hour or whatever which is frankly unlivable, behind the mask of 'reputation' and or 'family'. They put out good food, but loving fast food starts at like $11 or $12. If I were still cooking I'd have to work like 2.5 full time jobs at that just to make rent/mortgage in this city much less afford anything else. I started off in the industry as a cafeteria cook a decade ago making $10/hr, it was decent pay, good work environment, and I loved what I was doing. I know not everyone is interested in working long hours for peanuts and so on, but I was/am. Not saying you should, or that you should even be okay with it, I'm just putting my perspective out there.
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Mar 19, 2018 19:53
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