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After The War
Apr 12, 2005

to all of my Architects
let me be traitor

egon_beeblebrox posted:

The Who will provide the theme song.

Fucker, now I'm going to have that stuck in my head for the rest of the day.

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Rirse
May 7, 2006

by R. Guyovich

Bicyclops posted:

I suspect that Jenny is a mildly better character for a spin-off because yeah, she's a blank slate, and if she gets a good writer, she can keep going on with adventures and maybe even regenerate.

I think, though, that Lady Christina was awfully written only because she was a bunch of tropes shoved into an episode that wasn't exactly great to begin with, and I suspect an attempt to redeem the character would be more getting a writer who won't waste Michelle Ryan as an actor.

Big Finish will adapt anything, though, so it's possible the whole thing will just be leering at the wealthy jewel thief in her flying bus.

Maybe there will be a twist and she becomes a school teacher.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


The_Doctor posted:

Yes, I'll agree to that. Jenny is a fairly blank slate you could do a lot with, whereas Christina was a genuinely awful person.

Trying to redeem a bad character can be...interesting, though it can just not work for some.

Orson Welles revived the character of Harry Lime from The Third Man for a very popular radio series. It was a prequel, for obvious reasons, and involved the wacky adventures of charming con man Harry Lime in pre-war Europe, the Middle East, etc--various cosmopolitan places. Usually the episodes had Harry going some petty roguish crime or being hired to do something. While morally grey, he usually ended up doing something good for somebody, turning the tables on a worse person, etc. He also never quite won the big score and just about "oh well!" broke even to survive til his next caper.

I've listened to quite a few of them, and I can't get around the fact that in the movie, Lime was a monster who sold sick kids watered down medicine to make a profit and it killed them, to the shock and horror of his childhood friend Holly. And to compound it, he just didn't care or show any remorse. It's not like the radio show is a modern character arc either, which shows Lime's journey from a basically good Robin Hood type to cold rear end in a top hat, because storytelling of that era didn't work like that.

I'm a huge Welles fan, but even his great acting and in some cases, writing, on this, just leaves me cold.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Yeah I loving love The Third Man and when I found out there were audio stories featuring Welles as Lime I got excited at the notion of hearing them, till I found out he plays Lime as the rogueish quasi-protagonist. I mean, I'd absolutely be down for a series of Radio Plays featuring Orson Welles as a rogueish quasi-protagonist... just not if it is Harry Lime. That's one of cinema's all time great villains and it just doesn't make any sense to me to do it that way.

Which reminds me, reading a biography of Robert Holmes I discovered that a series he pitched but ultimately didn't write himself for various reasons was produced as a radio drama back in the 70s featuring Vincent Price and Peter Cushing :stwoon:

Burkion
May 10, 2012

by Fluffdaddy
Why has that not been animated yet

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 60 days!
It's been forever since I saw that episode with Michelle Ryan and The Magic Bus, can anyone remind me why her character was so horrible again? Not that I doubt anyone's word that her character was trash (many of RTD's characters were). I just don't remember the particulars, other than the episode itself generally being a terrible dumpster fire, so I can't be hosed to bother trying to watch it again.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Her character was straight up just a rich, bored aristocrat who steals national treasures purely for fun and robs the public of any chance to see or have access to them in favor of her amusement. Her (and RTD's) attempts to equate her selfish and self-serving actions with those of the Doctor traveling the universe and setting things right is a really terrible comparison that not only doesn't get called out but actually is left hanging as if the Doctor agrees with it. Her "nemesis" is a police officer attempting to catch a criminal committing crimes and we're supposed to enjoy him being hosed over when the Doctor aids in her escape and rewards her with a flying bus to presumably commit more crimes with.

Short of her lovely background though, she's also poorly written in her actions in the actual episode itself. There is one neat bit at the start where she takes control of the situation instead of the Doctor and he looks slightly put out but also intrigued by somebody who is willing to take the lead... except she then proceeds to do nothing other than follow him around asking questions like a standard companion and watching him sort out every situation. Even the rest of the bus inhabitants are left completely to their own devices and she doesn't lead, direct or manage them in any way.

She's a bad character with a worse backstory she doesn't do or accomplish anything or follow up on even the spark of potential she might have had. About all she manages to accomplish is to look smug about how much smarter and cleverer she is than everybody while not actually doing anything.

I really, really dislike that story. :sweatdrop:

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 60 days!

Jerusalem posted:

Her character was straight up just a rich, bored aristocrat who steals national treasures purely for fun and robs the public of any chance to see or have access to them in favor of her amusement. Her (and RTD's) attempts to equate her selfish and self-serving actions with those of the Doctor traveling the universe and setting things right is a really terrible comparison that not only doesn't get called out but actually is left hanging as if the Doctor agrees with it. Her "nemesis" is a police officer attempting to catch a criminal committing crimes and we're supposed to enjoy him being hosed over when the Doctor aids in her escape and rewards her with a flying bus to presumably commit more crimes with.

Short of her lovely background though, she's also poorly written in her actions in the actual episode itself. There is one neat bit at the start where she takes control of the situation instead of the Doctor and he looks slightly put out but also intrigued by somebody who is willing to take the lead... except she then proceeds to do nothing other than follow him around asking questions like a standard companion and watching him sort out every situation. Even the rest of the bus inhabitants are left completely to their own devices and she doesn't lead, direct or manage them in any way.

She's a bad character with a worse backstory she doesn't do or accomplish anything or follow up on even the spark of potential she might have had. About all she manages to accomplish is to look smug about how much smarter and cleverer she is than everybody while not actually doing anything.

I really, really dislike that story. :sweatdrop:

So basically RTD bungled trying to write a "naughty, cheeky" version of Lara Croft, then.

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013





I have some bad news about the new intro for the show

https://twitter.com/LFCNev/status/975403198558154753

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

A little privacy, please?
God, that's a lovely opening.

Where's the Middle Eight?

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

Have fun!
The sight of that makes me sick to my stomach!

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Looks like they've really got a bigger budget this year!

Attitude Indicator
Apr 3, 2009

nine-gear crow posted:

I have some bad news about the new intro for the show

https://twitter.com/LFCNev/status/975403198558154753

it's wetter on the inside

Pesky Splinter
Feb 16, 2011

A worried pug.

nine-gear crow posted:

I have some bad news about the new intro for the show

https://twitter.com/LFCNev/status/975403198558154753



Some NWS low-hanging fruit (which works as a euphemism) :v:

egon_beeblebrox
Mar 1, 2008

WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.



Listened to "The Destination Wars" and enjoyed it quite a bit, after I got used to the voices.

Box of Bunnies
Apr 3, 2012

by Pragmatica
Third Doctor Adventures volume 4 featuring the Monk and the Cybermen is out now. I'm well behind on boxsets I've gotta listen to, never mind main range stuff or other bits and pieces I've picked up, but I'm really feeling like bumping this one to the top given the combination of era, enemies, and writers.

egon_beeblebrox posted:

Listened to "The Destination Wars" and enjoyed it quite a bit, after I got used to the voices.

Yeah, it was good stuff. Bradley's intonation still feels off to me but they all sell the story well and mannnn is the Gimme Gimme Gimme guy a real pleasant surprise as the Master

Box of Bunnies fucked around with this message at 09:17 on Mar 21, 2018

Timby
Dec 23, 2006

Your mother!

Eccleston speaks more about his departure:

quote:

“My relationship with my three immediate superiors – the showrunner, the producer and co-producer – broke down irreparably during the first block of filming and it never recovered,” Eccleston says in the latest issue of Radio Times.

“They lost trust in me, and I lost faith and trust and belief in them,” he continues.

Eccleston starred in the sci-fi series when it first rebooted in 2005 with Russell T Davies as showrunner.

Describing the situation as “very” stressful, Eccleston claims that he felt out of place playing a lighter role, and believes it may have contributed to on-set difficulties.

“Some of my anger about the situation came from my own insecurity,” he says. “They employed somebody [as the Doctor] who was not a natural light comedian.”

He adds, “Billie [Piper], who we know was and is brilliant, was very, very nervous and very, very inexperienced. So, you had that, and then you had me. Very, very experienced, possibly the most experienced on it, but out of my comfort zone.”

In the interview, Eccleston goes on to reveal why he’s only elected to speak on the subject in recent months, with the Salford-born actor suggesting he’d made an agreement not to “damage” the reputation of the series.

“When I left, I gave my word to [then-showrunner] Russell T Davies that I wouldn’t do anything to damage the show,” he says. “But they did things to damage me. I didn’t criticise anybody.”

Asked if Davies was aware of the issues, Eccleston says, “If you’re the showrunner, you know everything. That’s your job,” adding that he “never will have” a working relationship with the screenwriter again.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 10 years!
drat. That's unfortunate, they were friends before he took the role yeah?

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."

Rhyno posted:

drat. That's unfortunate, they were friends before he took the role yeah?

Yeah, he took on the role because they worked together on Rusty’s The Second Coming.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 10 years!

The_Doctor posted:

Yeah, he took on the role because they worked together on Rusty’s The Second Coming.

Which is awesome and everybody should watch it.

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 60 days!
So if I'm reading that right, basically Eccleston clashed with RTD, Phil Collinson and Julie Gardner (the latter two were producers on DW during RTD's run). Given that Eccleston's made claims of bullying on the set by the people in charge, I'd be interested to see what specifics eventually come out.

Big Mean Jerk
Jan 27, 2009

Well, of course I know him.
He's me.
The really disappointing part of all this is how the general fan base (outside this forum, obviously) has taken all this as Eccleston attacking the show and how he’s just some diva actor whining. Check the comments on any article or twitter thread about this.

We are literally never going to get Eccleston to come back for anything at this rate :negative:

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013





Big Mean Jerk posted:

The really disappointing part of all this is how the general fan base (outside this forum, obviously) has taken all this as Eccleston attacking the show and how he’s just some diva actor whining. Check the comments on any article or twitter thread about this.

We are literally never going to get Eccleston to come back for anything at this rate :negative:

Well, the guy has royally trashed just about every schlocky big budget project he's been attached to in the last decade. There may well be a common deniminator here, and its name just might be *hristopher *celston....

egon_beeblebrox
Mar 1, 2008

WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.



Box of Bunnies posted:

Yeah, it was good stuff. Bradley's intonation still feels off to me but they all sell the story well and mannnn is the Gimme Gimme Gimme guy a real pleasant surprise as the Master

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to hearing more of him. I hope sooner or later, Big Finish does a huge Multi-Master story with as many of them as they can grab. Jacobi and Gomez would be a lot of fun together.

corn in the bible
Jun 5, 2004

Oh no oh god it's all true!
When he talks about how poo poo The Avengers is I just like him even more. Dude's savage

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

drat, that's sucks. :(

It doesn't sound like it was amicable at all, and Davies and Eccleston are basically going to have a Bill Murray/Harold Ramis relationship going forward. He does admit that some of it was his own lack of confidence in the comedic part of the role, which sort of gives voice to an issue I always had with Nine, and why I got more into the show once Tennant started. Hopefully once details start coming out, it doesn't get too ugly.

Timby
Dec 23, 2006

Your mother!

nine-gear crow posted:

Well, the guy has royally trashed just about every schlocky big budget project he's been attached to in the last decade. There may well be a common deniminator here, and its name just might be *hristopher *celston....

Well, let's see:

- Thor 2 was a complete shitpile and 99 percent of his dialogue in the movie was complete gibberish, so I don't really fault him for trashing it
- GI Joe was a complete shitpile
- RTD and the BBC literally made up a fake quote from him saying that they had all always agreed from the start that he'd only do one season of Doctor Who, which completely blindsided him

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Timby posted:


- RTD and the BBC literally made up a fake quote from him saying that they had all always agreed from the start that he'd only do one season of Doctor Who, which completely blindsided him

He's also said that he felt like he had move because he was functionally blacklisted by BBC after what happened.

PriorMarcus
Oct 17, 2008

ASK ME ABOUT BEING ALLERGIC TO POSITIVITY

Here's my understanding of it all...

Eccleston felt very uncertain taking the role and thusly didn't have much confidence.

He saw one of the shows main directors bullying people on set, mainly Billie Piper and felt the need to speak up but didn't on set due to his own apprehensions.

When he approached Davis he wasn't satisfied with the answer he got and things got very toxic very fast.

Davis tried to salvage the working relationship but by this point the damage was done and Eccleston had decided to leave. The director was never invited back.

Cut to some years later and Moffat approaches Eccleston to star in the 50th. The entire behind the scenes crew is different now and Eccleston is on board. They script and story board with his involvement in mind. He even screen test his updated costume.

At some point before filming Caroline Skinner and Moffat have a massive public arguement that leads to her being fired and Moffat replacing her. This isn't announced at the time. Speculation internally is that Moffat and Skinner had been having an affair.

Eccleston gets wind of this, talks to Skinner in private and decides not to bother with any of it again.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

We'll probably know soon enough, because it looks like he feels ready to talk about it. I expect that he'll say more.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

PriorMarcus posted:

He even screen test his updated costume.

Eccleston gets wind of this, talks to Skinner in private and decides not to bother with any of it again.

I hadn't heard of these two points before, the latter in particular is quite depressing.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Jerusalem posted:

I hadn't heard of these two points before, the latter in particular is quite depressing.

I've never seen either of the points come from anywhere but PriorMarcus, for what it's worth, although I didn't end up reading the version of the 50th with Eccleston in it that was available for purchase awhile back, maybe it's in there?

Timby
Dec 23, 2006

Your mother!

Bicyclops posted:

I've never seen either of the points come from anywhere but PriorMarcus, for what it's worth, although I didn't end up reading the version of the 50th with Eccleston in it that was available for purchase awhile back, maybe it's in there?

Yeah, don't forget that echoplex pretty conclusively proved last year that PriorMarcus' "insider" information is third-hand at best.

PriorMarcus
Oct 17, 2008

ASK ME ABOUT BEING ALLERGIC TO POSITIVITY

Timby posted:

Yeah, don't forget that echoplex pretty conclusively proved last year that PriorMarcus' "insider" information is third-hand at best.

I've always been upfront about the fact that my knowledge came from people who worked on the show and not from myself directly.

Here's me talking about the show going on a years break and then Peter leaving from back in 2015 before any of that was announced.

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3550205&pagenumber=118&perpage=40#post450283490

I've not been the perfect font of knowledge no, but I do get bigger details right.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

nine-gear crow posted:

Well, the guy has royally trashed just about every schlocky big budget project he's been attached to in the last decade. There may well be a common deniminator here, and its name just might be *hristopher *celston....

How dare anyone criticise the artistic tour de forces of *checks notes* GI Joe and Thor 2?

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!
GI Joe was bad at being a GI Joe film, which is not a very high bar

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013





MrL_JaKiri posted:

How dare anyone criticise the artistic tour de forces of *checks notes* GI Joe and Thor 2?

It's not, I'm just saying I seem to have to wrack my brain to come up with any time Eceleston has ever said anything positive about almost anything he's been attached to.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

by Fluffdaddy

nine-gear crow posted:

It's not, I'm just saying I seem to have to wrack my brain to come up with any time Eceleston has ever said anything positive about almost anything he's been attached to.

He had nothing but good things to say about Cage and I've not heard him bad mouth Heroes too much

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

nine-gear crow posted:

It's not, I'm just saying I seem to have to wrack my brain to come up with any time Eceleston has ever said anything positive about almost anything he's been attached to.

You don't think this might be because you only hear about what Eccleston thinks of a project when it's negative? "That job was ok" is in no way newsworthy

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Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 60 days!
Frankly, I'd rather hear actors talk about how much they hated working on some project that they clearly did just for the money. Nowadays everyone does the "oh I had a wonderful time on set, we were like one big family" thing, and nine times out of ten it's complete bullshit that they're basically ordered by the studio or network to spout during interviews.

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