interviewing: The Land of the Rising Fig

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PIZZA.BAT: Nov 12, 2016

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

nobody really cares about your technology specializations. knowing a programming language isn't worth anything because anyone can get up to speed in a few months. the money is in business and domain expertise

yeah by tech i meant broader category like 'big data' or 'embedded systems' or 'distributed systems' or whatever- not a specific language. the specific tech specialization comes in when it's a truly niche tech that solves a small set of problems really well. if those problems are experienced by large companies with deep pockets and they struggle to find people who actually know how to use it then there's gold in them there hills

# ? Mar 24, 2018 18:40

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# ? Apr 25, 2024 08:43

Pollyanna: Mar 5, 2005; Milk's on them.

MononcQc posted:

An experienced generalist is not just someone who goes and knows the surface of a bunch of technologies, it's a person who knows a vastly satisfying amount about multiple techs.

A workplace should see their value. They are going to be those employees who can break the silos of various teams or specialities on a team, and can foresee issues in interactions with other components in an entire stack. There's nothing more easily preventable than a guru in fancy algorithms for rendering or physics simulation not having the breadth of experience required to write safe, performant SQL queries.

Your good generalists skip over the borders between circles of expertise in an organisation and carry valuable information and experience with them. A team that recognizes that and makes use of it will get much better results than one who builds disjoint circles around experienced experts who do not communicate enough or can't get a vision on a broader area than the one they are an expert in.

In a small business or agency, where the workload varies a lot over time depending on contracts, a good generalist is the last person fired (after the boss's family) because they can replace, at least for a while, most other employees in some area. The generalist is more easily replaceable by any expert in one single area of work, but can also offer the most bang for your buck when the job is not always being specialized. Knowing a bit of everything is worth more than a lot of a few things when the nature of your work is that you do a bit of everything!

Expertise does come with higher salaries, but a higher long-term risk. If you made your reputation in interactive games and sites by focusing a few years in Flash to the point of being an expert about it, and that that market dies with one iPhone release, you probably have to start from further back than a bunch of people who already knew far more varied pieces of tech and for whom their general experience can be reused better in new environments.

What I find happening is a kind of oscillation between generalisation and specialisation: try a lot of things, dig deeper in one you like, and once you're solid enough there, start looking a bit around again to prevent yourself from walling you in.

Notorious b.s.d. is kind of right in saying that domain expertise is what is really worth it, but I think it's a bit larger than that as well. Any cross-competencies can end up being real useful to people who need them. I'm an expert at Erlang and whatnot, but what makes me worth hiring the most is that I also ended up having decent competences in system design, training and teaching, documentation writing, and operations. There's one expertise where people find me, but it's the other things around that makes me better suited at say, building a team made out of people who never used functional programming before, than someone who only knows the tech stuff very well.

yes

# ? Mar 24, 2018 18:40

Pollyanna: Mar 5, 2005; Milk's on them.

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

nobody really cares about your technology specializations. knowing a programming language isn't worth anything because anyone can get up to speed in a few months. the money is in business and domain expertise

being an expert in python or whatever is worth nothing, zip, $0, unless you work for a python tools vendor. (because then python is the domain expertise)

being an expert in petrochemical engineering / ground imaging software who knows C++ is much more valuable than being an "expert in C++"

being an expert in financial trading platforms who knows java is much more valuable than being the guy who wrote the book on java testing etc

being an expert manager who develops talent effectively at a series of jobs is much more valuable (and much more transferrable!) than any technology skill

most definitely yes

and this is why people go to school n poo poo

# ? Mar 24, 2018 18:41

Gazpacho: Jun 18, 2004; by Fluffdaddy; Slippery Tilde

Managers may not give a poo poo about competent use of frameworks, but that doesn't make it a sensible position in the interest of the business. The whole purpose of a framework or platform is to enable devs to work at the level of business requirements, not computer whispering

# ? Mar 24, 2018 18:46

Gazpacho: Jun 18, 2004; by Fluffdaddy; Slippery Tilde

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

nobody really cares about your technology specializations. knowing a programming language isn't worth anything because anyone can get up to speed in a few months. the money is in business and domain expertise

This is not consistent with the way recruiters select candidates ityool 2018. I have had a recruiter cut me off because I didn't have insurance biz experience but he was an exception, overwhelmingly they look for a tech skills match and the possibility of "learning" is unthinkable

# ? Mar 24, 2018 18:55

qhat: Jul 6, 2015

I don't think anyone gives a poo poo either that you spent 10 years programming C++ in a highly specific domain unless you are also applying to jobs that specifically ask for that domain. Ultimately when a company is hiring, their dream new hire is someone who will sit down and immediately start producing value with minimal effort and resources on the company's part. This is easier if you already have a vast in depth knowledge of many different paradigms and technologies.

# ? Mar 24, 2018 19:26

Pollyanna: Mar 5, 2005; Milk's on them.

oftentimes a company�s dream new hire is a clone of their highest performer, down to the domain knowledge

# ? Mar 24, 2018 19:31

feedmegin: Jul 30, 2008

Sapozhnik posted:

yeah if you switch from swt to something designed more recently than 20 years ago then you're going to have an easier time of it

in other news qt 5 is a lot easier to program for than motif

that's not a reflection upon the language one way or the other

Qt 2 is about 20 years old now and wasnt that much harder to program for. Motif, on the other hand, is plain C not C++ :shobon:

# ? Mar 24, 2018 19:38

Pollyanna: Mar 5, 2005; Milk's on them.

what is the best way to guarantee you have a career for the rest of your life outside of embedding yourself into a company like a tick

# ? Mar 24, 2018 19:42

Pollyanna: Mar 5, 2005; Milk's on them.

Pollyanna posted:

what is the best way to guarantee you have a career for the rest of your life outside of embedding yourself into a company like a tick

own land

# ? Mar 24, 2018 19:42

hobbesmaster: Jan 28, 2008

if you truly believe you are a good generalist you should be looking at getting into project management, product management, solutions architecture/sales engineering/whatever your company calls it

those are the types of things that are for �generalists� - note that being a true generalist requires business sense

# ? Mar 24, 2018 20:07

qhat: Jul 6, 2015

hobbesmaster posted:

if you truly believe you are a good generalist you should be looking at getting into project management, product management, solutions architecture/sales engineering/whatever your company calls it

those are the types of things that are for “generalists” - note that being a true generalist requires business sense

So the least useful people migrate into management. Checks out.

# ? Mar 24, 2018 20:22

PIZZA.BAT: Nov 12, 2016

Pollyanna posted:

what is the best way to guarantee you have a career for the rest of your life outside of embedding yourself into a company like a tick

anyone who gives you a gameplan which goes past 5 or 10 years is either an idiot or trying to sell you something

it's the 21st century. the only thing that's really going to last your career is people skills

# ? Mar 24, 2018 20:38

Arcsech: Aug 5, 2008

Rex-Goliath posted:

anyone who gives you a gameplan which goes past 5 or 10 years is either an idiot or trying to sell you something

it's the 21st century. the only thing that's really going to last your career is people skills

solid advice.

1) people skills, and
2) make sure to keep looking at where your industry is going. if your current job isn�t going to give you opportunities to go in that direction, time to find one that is

note I mean very general direction here. like �cloud stuff� or �security�. if someone tries to tell you a specific technology is the future (ie bitcoin, oculus rift, whatever) they�re also trying to sell you something

# ? Mar 24, 2018 20:47

Fiedler: Jun 29, 2002; I, for one, welcome our new mouse overlords.

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

you don't want to get into a c# shop. c#, the technology, is pretty awesome. c#, the community, is a shitshow.

the problem is that c# is inextricably tied to microsoft windows. every c# shop is a windows shop. every windows shop is owned by someone stupid enough to bet his business on microsoft loving windows

can you imagine how loving idiotic your bosses are if they bet their loving livelihood on windows? titanically stupid. monumentally stupid. so stupid, it beggars belief

and, following from that:

A players hire B players.

B players hire Cs.

What do the C players hire?

Windows guys.

don't be a windows guy. it's not worth it. no matter how cool the latest shiny C# thing is, it is never worth working with windows guys

The best part of these rants of yours is that your worldview can't conceive of software development jobs that aren't webdev. But even limiting oneself to webdev, your opinion that c# requires Windows is quite dated.

# ? Mar 24, 2018 21:31

champagne posting: Apr 5, 2006; YOU ARE A BRAIN
IN A BUNKER

Fiedler posted:

The best part of these rants of yours is that your worldview can't conceive of software development jobs that aren't webdev. But even limiting oneself to webdev, your opinion that c# requires Windows is quite dated.

it does though. I mean you could neuter yourself and use something else but it's easier to say the least in windows.

my shop is a matlab / c# shop and it is possibly the worst

# ? Mar 24, 2018 21:34

Fiedler: Jun 29, 2002; I, for one, welcome our new mouse overlords.

The c# authoring experience is better in Windows, but c# runs everywhere.

# ? Mar 24, 2018 21:41

Fiedler: Jun 29, 2002; I, for one, welcome our new mouse overlords.

Which is not to say that the c# authoring experience on non-Windows is bad. VS for Mac is good and getting better as VS features like the editor are ported to VS for Mac, and VS Code is not too shabby.

# ? Mar 24, 2018 21:43

qhat: Jul 6, 2015

Realistically though, how often do you see serious C# apps not on Windows.

# ? Mar 24, 2018 21:58

Gazpacho: Jun 18, 2004; by Fluffdaddy; Slippery Tilde

Fiedler posted:

VS for Mac

# ? Mar 24, 2018 22:28

hobbesmaster: Jan 28, 2008

qhat posted:

Realistically though, how often do you see serious C# apps not on Windows.

well whats your definition of serious; lots of games are done in unity

# ? Mar 24, 2018 22:42

qhat: Jul 6, 2015

hobbesmaster posted:

well whats your definition of serious; lots of games are done in unity

More just pointing out that yes although C#is cross platform, 95% of c# jobs out there you'll be dropped into a Microsoft ecosystem.

# ? Mar 24, 2018 23:14

Workaday Wizard: Oct 23, 2009; by Pragmatica

St Evan Echoes posted:

i have to wait until summer to move because i got a pretty good bonus this year but they claim it back if you leave within 6 months of receipt

wait what the gently caress?

the bonus is for work already done. how can they claim it? is this even legal?

# ? Mar 24, 2018 23:29

jony neuemonic: Nov 13, 2009

qhat posted:

More just pointing out that yes although C#is cross platform, 95% of c# jobs out there you'll be dropped into a Microsoft ecosystem.

yeah i�m into .net core as much as anyone but let�s be real here. c# still means windows at most jobs.

# ? Mar 24, 2018 23:31

Arcsech: Aug 5, 2008

Shinku ABOOKEN posted:

wait what the gently caress?

the bonus is for work already done. how can they claim it? is this even legal?

it may be legal (might depend on what state you�re in) but it�s super loving shady

# ? Mar 25, 2018 00:06

homercles: Feb 14, 2010

Be lucky, have well placed friends, don't be an introvert and if daddy can place you into a fintech position early on even though you can't bang two rocks together, you're set.

This thread is harsh but true.

# ? Mar 25, 2018 00:53

carry on then: Jul 10, 2010; by VideoGames
(and can't post for 10 years!)

if you aren't hired out of college into a chief architect position at a fortune 500 your career is already at a dead end

# ? Mar 25, 2018 00:55

The MUMPSorceress: Jan 6, 2012; ^SHTPSTS; Gary’s Answer

I mean, in the last 6 years I've gone from supporting 2 people on $10/hour with no benefits while living in my in laws basement to a quarter mil a year household income so if my career is at a dead end because I don't have any attractive areas of specialty I think I still did pretty well.

But after my no compete is up I can probably make more bux selling my soul back to the insurance industry

# ? Mar 25, 2018 01:04

qhat: Jul 6, 2015

I hope to eventually be making a figure which I can confident call a portion of a million a year.

# ? Mar 25, 2018 01:18

Mao Zedong Thot: Oct 16, 2008

cis autodrag posted:

But after my no compete is up I can probably make more bux selling my soul back to the insurance industry

Some things aren't worth money

# ? Mar 25, 2018 01:21

The MUMPSorceress: Jan 6, 2012; ^SHTPSTS; Gary’s Answer

qhat posted:

I hope to eventually be making a figure which I can confident call a portion of a million a year.

Get married, lol. My wife's pay shot way up at the same time mine did which helped put us over. Maybe in a couple years I'll stop feeling existential financial stress even!

# ? Mar 25, 2018 01:23

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

Fiedler posted:

The best part of these rants of yours is that your worldview can't conceive of software development jobs that aren't webdev. But even limiting oneself to webdev, your opinion that c# requires Windows is quite dated.

1. i don't work in webdev you colossal dumbass

2. i was a mono contributor 10+ years ago. i am well aware that c# does not technically require windows. in reality, all actual business users in the world that actually exists are windows shops

i mean i guess you could get a unity job but that implies working on video games, which sounds even worse than working in a windows shop

# ? Mar 25, 2018 01:36

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

Gazpacho posted:

This is not consistent with the way recruiters select candidates ityool 2018. I have had a recruiter cut me off because I didn't have insurance biz experience but he was an exception, overwhelmingly they look for a tech skills match and the possibility of "learning" is unthinkable

applicant management systems are dumber than gently caress

fill your resume with ltierally ever technology you have ever been paid money to touch. it doesn't matter whether you are an expert or a novice, because the dumbass keyword search can't tell

# ? Mar 25, 2018 01:38

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

St Evan Echoes posted:

i have to wait until summer to move because i got a pretty good bonus this year but they claim it back if you leave within 6 months of receipt

you can start looking now

if an employer quibbles with your start date, you have already negotiated a salary and you can ask for a signing bonus to clean up your clawback problem

# ? Mar 25, 2018 01:40

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

Pollyanna posted:

what is the best way to guarantee you have a career for the rest of your life outside of embedding yourself into a company like a tick

embed your self in every company like a tick

# ? Mar 25, 2018 01:45

Progressive JPEG: Feb 19, 2003

Analytic Engine posted:

What are the advantages to selling yourself as a Generalist Programmer? Most of my success in getting hired and changing jobs seems to be because I wanted to (and did) specialize years ago. Honestly asking this question since most of my friends & colleagues are Generalists

a generalist is a programmer who cant point to any vaguely similar/relevant experience in their employment history when applying for the job

# ? Mar 25, 2018 02:18

Progressive JPEG: Feb 19, 2003

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

you don't want to get into a c# shop. c#, the technology, is pretty awesome. c#, the community, is a shitshow.

the problem is that c# is inextricably tied to microsoft windows. every c# shop is a windows shop. every windows shop is owned by someone stupid enough to bet his business on microsoft loving windows

can you imagine how loving idiotic your bosses are if they bet their loving livelihood on windows? titanically stupid. monumentally stupid. so stupid, it beggars belief

and, following from that:

A players hire B players.

B players hire Cs.

What do the C players hire?

Windows guys.

don't be a windows guy. it's not worth it. no matter how cool the latest shiny C# thing is, it is never worth working with windows guys

everything in this post is 100% accurate

# ? Mar 25, 2018 02:19

Progressive JPEG: Feb 19, 2003

jony neuemonic posted:

my only real complaint about what i've seen of java's ecosystem is that a lot of things feel very uh, "enterprise" for lack of a better word. the path from "add to pom.xml" to "do something useful" isn't always super clear.

use tools from this decade and java is Fine bordering on Good, which is pretty amazing given its ubiquity in the stuff i work on (mainly distributed systems and databases)

i've been programming java the last couple years and ive never touched an xml*. that said im on a pretty small team that picks its own tools, so maybe there's some shithole out there still using ant or something lmao. tbh i've had way more problems dealing with e.g. golang's and python's bad decisions than anything java related on this project, despite the latter making up the vast majority of the codebase involved (golang is just used for some standalone CLI tools, and python for integration testing and misc build/dist tooling)

* i've technically touched an xml for log4j configuration, but that was one and done

Progressive JPEG fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Mar 25, 2018

# ? Mar 25, 2018 02:28

Progressive JPEG: Feb 19, 2003

Fiedler posted:

The c# authoring experience is better in Windows, but c# runs everywhere.

brb debugging why mono doesn't do the same thing as the sole supported c# platform

# ? Mar 25, 2018 02:34

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# ? Apr 25, 2024 08:43

Progressive JPEG: Feb 19, 2003

Pollyanna posted:

what is the best way to guarantee you have a career for the rest of your life outside of embedding yourself into a company like a tick

pick up a trade like plumber or electrician

but those are still subject to boom/bust cycles

# ? Mar 25, 2018 02:35

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