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Fiedler
Jun 29, 2002

I, for one, welcome our new mouse overlords.

Progressive JPEG posted:

brb debugging why mono doesn't do the same thing as the sole supported c# platform
Don't use mono. Use .net core.

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Progressive JPEG
Feb 19, 2003

brb checking a big ol table to see if this standard library function is in my standard library

Fiedler
Jun 29, 2002

I, for one, welcome our new mouse overlords.

Progressive JPEG posted:

brb checking a big ol table to see if this standard library function is in my standard library

Sounds awful. You should stop using Java.

Pendragon
Jun 18, 2003

HE'S WATCHING YOU
serious post thanks everyone for discussion on the generalist stuff. I've worked only in small companies and know a decent amount about a crapton of stuff as a result and thought about marketing myself as a jack of all trades. probably will hold off on that for now and just customize the crap out of my resume for every application.

on the other hand I like being a generalist and doing everything but it's impossible to find jobs that require that skillset and choosing what "specialty" to apply for is hard.

Progressive JPEG
Feb 19, 2003

Fiedler posted:

Sounds awful. You should stop using Java.

go back to picking your favorite ms office widget set

Progressive JPEG
Feb 19, 2003

Pendragon posted:

serious post thanks everyone for discussion on the generalist stuff. I've worked only in small companies and know a decent amount about a crapton of stuff as a result and thought about marketing myself as a jack of all trades. probably will hold off on that for now and just customize the crap out of my resume for every application.

on the other hand I like being a generalist and doing everything but it's impossible to find jobs that require that skillset and choosing what "specialty" to apply for is hard.

places don't generally know that they need a generalist so they won't be hiring for one. in practice you'd sign up against a specialty (and get the $$$) and then branch out as you interact with other teams within the company

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

Pendragon posted:

serious post thanks everyone for discussion on the generalist stuff. I've worked only in small companies and know a decent amount about a crapton of stuff as a result and thought about marketing myself as a jack of all trades. probably will hold off on that for now and just customize the crap out of my resume for every application.

on the other hand I like being a generalist and doing everything but it's impossible to find jobs that require that skillset and choosing what "specialty" to apply for is hard.

all development positions want a specialist in that thing. to apply to one of those as a “generalist” as you said really means to tailor your resume as a specialist for that company’s tech

if you want to legitimately be a generalist as a career you will not be looking at software engineering gigs that are called “software developer” or engineer or whatever

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
I mean, again, Java itself isn't so much as inherently good as populated by grownups who have some actual sense of responsibility. Google Guava notwithstanding (it's good but it does make the odd breaking change here and there so you do have to keep up with it). Otherwise, Maven doesn't support more than one version of any given transitive dependency in any given project and in practice this is virtually never a problem which speaks to the maturity of the people in the Java ecosystem.

Compare it to the JavaScript ecosystem: it's not just that JS is an awful language (even though a lot of the worst stuff has been brought under control with new language revisions and type checkers and suchlike) it's the fact that it attracts the worst kinds of thoroughly punchable dickheads.

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016


:cheers:


Pendragon posted:

serious post thanks everyone for discussion on the generalist stuff. I've worked only in small companies and know a decent amount about a crapton of stuff as a result and thought about marketing myself as a jack of all trades. probably will hold off on that for now and just customize the crap out of my resume for every application.

on the other hand I like being a generalist and doing everything but it's impossible to find jobs that require that skillset and choosing what "specialty" to apply for is hard.

i mean- flaunt it if you've got it. if you don't really have a concentration yet and are happy being a 'jack of all trades' then by all means lean on that in your resume since that will make you look best while also painting an accurate picture.

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016


:cheers:


also real talk the only genuine 'career booster-shot' that i know of is signing on with a consulting firm and putting in several pounds of flesh.

Shaman Linavi
Apr 3, 2012

Rex-Goliath posted:

i mean- flaunt it if you've got it. if you don't really have a concentration yet and are happy being a 'jack of all trades' then by all means lean on that in your resume since that will make you look best while also painting an accurate picture.

this is what my resume ends up looking like since my only dev job was embedded c++ and that was year ago, also it was mostly QA compared to my current bullshit with ASP.Net
also those consulting firms that are like "Wow we will teach you how to program 10 weeks get paid any college major OK" dont even bother sending me rejection emails lol

edit: i would also like to say indeed is a piece of poo poo to search. they seem to really love throwing >50% sponsored jobs into every search, showing the same jobs on multiple pages

Shaman Linavi fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Mar 25, 2018

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
i'm a "generalist" in that i can do embedded stuff, native code on linux and win32, i can write a thing that responds to http requests in a bunch of different languages, i can do an sql, and i can also design then single handedly implement and then maintain a system that integrates all of these things that doesn't catch fire at least some of the time, because i've had to do just that (minus the win32 part)

but idk much about distributed systems though other than the cap theorem is a thing, also i think docker and suchlike things are garbage poo poo for idiots. so that probably doesn't make me very hireable.

Progressive JPEG
Feb 19, 2003

docker is fine for prototyping

dont use it past that point

qhat
Jul 6, 2015


A real problem with JavaScript is npm, which is the worst package manager I've ever used in my entire life.

freeasinbeer
Mar 26, 2015

by Fluffdaddy

Sapozhnik posted:

I mean, again, Java itself isn't so much as inherently good as populated by grownups who have some actual sense of responsibility. Google Guava notwithstanding (it's good but it does make the odd breaking change here and there so you do have to keep up with it). Otherwise, Maven doesn't support more than one version of any given transitive dependency in any given project and in practice this is virtually never a problem which speaks to the maturity of the people in the Java ecosystem.

Compare it to the JavaScript ecosystem: it's not just that JS is an awful language (even though a lot of the worst stuff has been brought under control with new language revisions and type checkers and suchlike) it's the fact that it attracts the worst kinds of thoroughly punchable dickheads.

except when it comes to running Java. Give me all the ram and then allocate all the ram is the laziest goddamn pattern that all java devs inherently do. They never go back to tune their poo poo.

individually Java and the jvm are decent but goddamn are devs so lazy when it comes to running things.

qhat
Jul 6, 2015


I had to explain to a coworker why basing his container on a rolling release of alpine is a terrible loving idea. He ignores the advice and 3 months later I'm having to rebuild all his loving containers because guess what, all the packages changed and none of the derived containers build anymore.

freeasinbeer
Mar 26, 2015

by Fluffdaddy

Progressive JPEG posted:

docker is fine for prototyping

dont use it past that point

I mean you can maybe get away with that attitude at places, but for example if a place is using kubernetes they are using docker in production.


And if your response is don’t use something like kubernetes then I’m sure those windows shops are hiring. Just like devs, Ops folks are using new tech and deploying stuff all the time in new formats. if you don’t like that the people who aren’t messing with new stuff are the happy windows admins who will make your life pain.

freeasinbeer
Mar 26, 2015

by Fluffdaddy

qhat posted:

I had to explain to a coworker why basing his container on a rolling release of alpine is a terrible loving idea. He ignores the advice and 3 months later I'm having to rebuild all his loving containers because guess what, all the packages changed and none of the derived containers build anymore.

I mean that’s stupid as poo poo. What base image is he even using? If you aren’t using the base docker image library for openjdk or whatever you are probably doing it wrong.

qhat
Jul 6, 2015


freeasinbeer posted:

I mean that’s stupid as poo poo. What base image is he even using? If you aren’t using the base docker image library for openjdk or whatever you are probably doing it wrong.

He's using alpine:edge. I changed all of them to 3.7 fixed after this nonsense. To be honest I don't know why alpine is a viable option for anything anyway, nerds seem to throw out reliable long term support in favour of minimal storage footprint. He's one of those guys.

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Sapozhnik posted:

I mean, again, Java itself isn't so much as inherently good as populated by grownups who have some actual sense of responsibility. Google Guava notwithstanding (it's good but it does make the odd breaking change here and there so you do have to keep up with it). Otherwise, Maven doesn't support more than one version of any given transitive dependency in any given project and in practice this is virtually never a problem which speaks to the maturity of the people in the Java ecosystem.

Compare it to the JavaScript ecosystem: it's not just that JS is an awful language (even though a lot of the worst stuff has been brought under control with new language revisions and type checkers and suchlike) it's the fact that it attracts the worst kinds of thoroughly punchable dickheads.

this is an insanely good post. normally i would empty-quote it, except that it's important to note that sapozhnik has pointed out key flaws in the java ecosystem.

poo poo isn't like, some kind of perfect loving garden of eden. it's just a baseline level of fuckups and clownshoes bullshit that other languages can't seem to match.

it ain't that java tooling is flawless. it's that most other things are so loving broken, java looks pretty ok by comparison

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Sapozhnik posted:

i'm a "generalist" in that i can do embedded stuff, native code on linux and win32, i can write a thing that responds to http requests in a bunch of different languages, i can do an sql, and i can also design then single handedly implement and then maintain a system that integrates all of these things that doesn't catch fire at least some of the time, because i've had to do just that (minus the win32 part)

but idk much about distributed systems though other than the cap theorem is a thing, also i think docker and suchlike things are garbage poo poo for idiots. so that probably doesn't make me very hireable.

i am a "generalist" in that i know a dozen programming languages well, i've ported real code to every unix platform you've ever heard of, and i've worked in a dozen industries

nobody cares about any of that technology side of that poo poo

my actually-relevant technology expertise is that i work in distributed systems and i have extensive experience in debugging java/scala applications in said systems.

edit: despite my assertions that domain expertise are the most valuable specializations, i do not want to talk about my own domain expertise itt, it gets too fuckin personal way too fast and internet detectives will gently caress with me

Notorious b.s.d. fucked around with this message at 06:41 on Mar 25, 2018

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016


:cheers:


yeah business types are way more interested if they can speak healthcare/finance/education/govt/whatever business requirements at you and have you not only understand it but able to identify issues before they become issues than if you know c++ or java

Progressive JPEG
Feb 19, 2003

freeasinbeer posted:

I mean you can maybe get away with that attitude at places, but for example if a place is using kubernetes they are using docker in production.


And if your response is don’t use something like kubernetes then I’m sure those windows shops are hiring. Just like devs, Ops folks are using new tech and deploying stuff all the time in new formats. if you don’t like that the people who aren’t messing with new stuff are the happy windows admins who will make your life pain.

sorry i but couldn't read your post because the network disappeared for several hours and then all the disk on the host was consumed

Progressive JPEG
Feb 19, 2003

whoops, minor point release upgrade just wiped out the cluster, oh well

freeasinbeer
Mar 26, 2015

by Fluffdaddy

Progressive JPEG posted:

whoops, minor point release upgrade just wiped out the cluster, oh well

Ah so you are a c# developer.

FamDav
Mar 29, 2008

Progressive JPEG posted:

whoops, minor point release upgrade just wiped out the cluster, oh well

kubernetes is javascript is rails. a lot of good stuff and superficially easy to start using, marred by the lie (by omission) that it can be hard to maintain and has quite a few sharp edges. much like anything successful.

cargo culting doesn’t mean you made a bad decision, it just means you’re an idiot who doesn’t know why you do anything (much like windows developers)

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com
Never rely on the code of a generalist.

Blinkz0rz
May 27, 2001

MY CONTEMPT FOR MY OWN EMPLOYEES IS ONLY MATCHED BY MY LOVE FOR TOM BRADY'S SWEATY MAGA BALLS

FamDav posted:

kubernetes is javascript is rails. a lot of good stuff and superficially easy to start using, marred by the lie (by omission) that it can be hard to maintain and has quite a few sharp edges. much like anything successful.

cargo culting doesn’t mean you made a bad decision, it just means you’re an idiot who doesn’t know why you do anything (much like windows developers)

that's why i hate the kubernetes quick start and kops because it turns something really complicated and hard into "easy mode if you only do things the way we do them disregarding your network topography/existing deployments/infrastructure." like you said it's rails for container orchestration

it's telling that the actual requirements for running kubernetes is buried under at least 3 links from the home page

MononcQc
May 29, 2007

If you like the idea of being a generalist and advertising yourself as such, look for jobs that have a polyglot environments. They are a bit more likely to understand the importance of a generalist there.

freeasinbeer
Mar 26, 2015

by Fluffdaddy

Blinkz0rz posted:

that's why i hate the kubernetes quick start and kops because it turns something really complicated and hard into "easy mode if you only do things the way we do them disregarding your network topography/existing deployments/infrastructure." like you said it's rails for container orchestration

it's telling that the actual requirements for running kubernetes is buried under at least 3 links from the home page

Don’t disagree that this is major issue with k8s, the devs basically code to a pretty far departure of what traditional sysadmins are comfortable with. But to me fighting it to fit your legacy network design is a fools errand. I’ve also gotten in some pretty nasty fights with this in the grey forums, but I tend to agree with the vision that k8s has set forth for designs and think that maybe legacy design patterns need a shake up.

FWIW I brought it up to refute the FUD that docker isn’t used in production(it has warts but there not that bad) and to shed light on the fact that operations folks are trying new things all the time as well, to try and make their lives easier. Docker is one of them.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


cis autodrag posted:

I mean, in the last 6 years I've gone from supporting 2 people on $10/hour with no benefits while living in my in laws basement to a quarter mil a year household income so if my career is at a dead end because I don't have any attractive areas of specialty I think I still did pretty well.

But after my no compete is up I can probably make more bux selling my soul back to the insurance industry

quarter mil a year what the gently caress teach me your ways

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Notorious b.s.d. posted:

applicant management systems are dumber than gently caress

fill your resume with ltierally ever technology you have ever been paid money to touch. it doesn't matter whether you are an expert or a novice, because the dumbass keyword search can't tell

caveat to this, if it's a piece of tech you never want to work with again, don't

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Rex-Goliath posted:

yeah business types are way more interested if they can speak healthcare/finance/education/govt/whatever business requirements at you and have you not only understand it but able to identify issues before they become issues than if you know c++ or java

hipaa is a good example of this

freeasinbeer
Mar 26, 2015

by Fluffdaddy

Pollyanna posted:

hipaa is a good example of this

never do a job with HIPAA, it pays poo poo(cause only doctors executives and sales make any money in healthcare) and it’s painful how stupid it all is.

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost

Pollyanna posted:

quarter mil a year what the gently caress teach me your ways

quarter mil household income

that is to say two adults making an average of 125k between them

which cis autodrag pointed out by mentioning her spouse a few posts later

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
this is at least the second time, in this very thread, that i've seen, that you do not actually read a post but rush to engage with it

and you're wondering why you're having difficulty finding a good job

i'm not saying this to be an rear end in a top hat to you, i'm saying this because you need a bit of tough love in this regard

freeasinbeer
Mar 26, 2015

by Fluffdaddy

Sapozhnik posted:

this is at least the second time, in this very thread, that i've seen, that you do not actually read a post but rush to engage with it

and you're wondering why you're having difficulty finding a good job

i'm not saying this to be an rear end in a top hat to you, i'm saying this because you need a bit of tough love in this regard

Lol she also went with the “stable” company and now is complaining about meetings and having to work on tech debit.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


i never said that

Kudaros
Jun 23, 2006
I finished my first week at my new job. Compared to grad school I feel way more sure of myself, more competent, etc. I realize it's the first week but I feel like the popular saying of "they expect results in industry" is exactly backwards. I also had some pretty aggressive advisers though.

It's weird to come home and not think about work in a way that stresses me out. I still can't stop thinking about work, but I'm not dreading it. People skills and the technical skill to back it up go a long way in this environment. 80% of data science in this role is making c-levels feel safe and comfortable. They gave me my own office which is nice too. And I don't really worry about money anymore. It's a surreal experience going from crackhouse to office.

I was not prepared for two things however: many these people have the straightest, cleanest, whitest teeth I've ever seen in my life, and they actually engage in small talk like "got any big plans this weekend?"

I thought that was just a joke about office culture.

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Mao Zedong Thot
Oct 16, 2008


Blinkz0rz posted:

that's why i hate the kubernetes quick start and kops because it turns something really complicated and hard into "easy mode if you only do things the way we do them disregarding your network topography/existing deployments/infrastructure." like you said it's rails for container orchestration

it's telling that the actual requirements for running kubernetes is buried under at least 3 links from the home page

even worse: kubernetes isn't really that complicated (theres like a grand total of 4 major pieces you need to setup) but when you start with some magic push button poo poo, it absolutely turns into a set of whirling blades that you haven't thought about, and that will eventually in fact cut you in prod

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