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exquisite tea posted:I think you've uh, totally misunderstood what I've said. If you think that was misunderstanding then tell me how you didn't come off as saying that ethical choices only matter if they're legitimized by the public at large, there's no point internally considering right from wrong since it's all a popularity contest.
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Mar 21, 2018 07:29
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McSpanky posted:If you think that was misunderstanding then tell me how you didn't come off as saying that ethical choices only matter if they're legitimized by the public at large, there's no point internally considering right from wrong since it's all a popularity contest. tea didn't come off like that at all. What I got from it was, like, not buying or interacting with Gilliam's art isn't a way to actually change things. It's a statement to make, and statements are fine and people are free to boycott or not boycott. But it won't fix Hollywood or the attitudes and systems that exist therin and let terrible people do or say terrible things and basically get away with it. tbh nobody can change Hollywood but the people in Hollywood and that kind of blows. I tend to think people should vote with their wallet, whether that actually works or not, when it comes to disagreeing with the kind of products being pushed. Like, if you're tired of studios pushing horrible cookie cutter movies or games or w/e media it is you spend money on, don't buy the things that you don't want to see made or disagree w/ how they were made. Maybe people not paying money to see the films people like Spacey or Weinstein or whomever are involved with will send a message that helps spark real change in the system, that would be cool and good. I kind of feel bad for all the other people involved with the project, though. Like a movie's a collaborative art form and for every rear end in a top hat on set there's a whole lotta good people, too. Hollywood seems to be doing okay (e: this time. obvs they historically have been bad at that) in actually making it difficult for some of the offenders to do any work in the biz any more, so that's a start. R. Guyovich posted:the mental image of weinstein showing up to hollywood party as guy incognito is very, very funny to me agreed and agreed esperterra fucked around with this message at 07:58 on Mar 21, 2018 |
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Mar 21, 2018 07:48
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McSpanky posted:If you think that was misunderstanding then tell me how you didn't come off as saying that ethical choices only matter if they're legitimized by the public at large, there's no point internally considering right from wrong since it's all a popularity contest. If you read my other posts in this thread you'll see that I don't believe in separating the art from the artist, and I don't believe there's no point to "internally considering right from wrong." What I'm saying is that personal ethical choices like these are ultimately ineffective and insufficient compared to widespread systemic change, because whatever effects they have upon the industry are nebulous, arbitrary, and place the burden of responsibility upon the endpoint consumer rather than the offender. You take a group of people and they'll all have varying stances on the cases of Polanski, Allen, Weinstein and so on, but these differences of opinion are meaningless if the industry continues to categorically shield and protect male transgressors from professional harm. You or me boycotting Polanski for decades has done absolutely nothing to damage his long-lived, critically praised, and wholly undeserved career.
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Mar 21, 2018 07:56
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I was a little mistaken on the last page: Weinstein got slapped, not punched. Here’s the story if anybody needs a little catharsis today.
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Mar 21, 2018 19:16
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I like how his friend has no idea how to block a camera phone.
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Mar 21, 2018 19:22
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Robin Williams’ co-star never took offense at his groping https://pagesix.com/2018/03/21/robin-williams-co-star-never-took-offense-to-his-groping/ "And I never took offense. I mean I was flashed, humped, bumped, grabbed. I think he probably did it to a lot of people … but it was so much fun." Halle Berry says she's 'livid' former manager allegedly used her name to prey on women https://www.yahoo.com/gma/halle-berry-says-shes-livid-former-manager-allegedly-190603186--abc-news-celebrities.html Ford ousts top exec over 'inappropriate behavior' https://www.yahoo.com/news/ford-ousts-top-exec-over-211817193.html
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Mar 21, 2018 23:16
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Zogo posted:Robin Williams’ co-star never took offense at his groping Knowing Robin Williams, his behavior was probably non-sexual (at least in his mind) and done to everyone in his path regardless of gender or sexuality.
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Mar 21, 2018 23:29
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Zogo posted:Halle Berry says she's 'livid' former manager allegedly used her name to prey on women quote:Meanwhile, Henson spoke positively to the Post of her relationship with Cirrincione, her one-time producing partner, saying, "I’ve never had any issue with this on any level." man, it must suck to end your career with loving Proud Mary of all movies. e: alternately, he must have some dirt on her. WeedlordGoku69 fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Mar 21, 2018 |
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Mar 21, 2018 23:31
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chitoryu12 posted:Knowing Robin Williams, his behavior was probably non-sexual (at least in his mind) and done to everyone in his path regardless of gender or sexuality. Can we stop this random assuming that just because someone looks nice or mean or their persona was such that we just attach this poo poo into them? Same goes for people going “ohhh if “nice guy actor” is a rapist I’ll be so annoyed!!” Like if he groped someone (not saying he did) he groped someone and that’s not ok
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Mar 25, 2018 11:06
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teacup posted:Can we stop this random assuming that just because someone looks nice or mean or their persona was such that we just attach this poo poo into them? Same goes for people going “ohhh if “nice guy actor” is a rapist I’ll be so annoyed!!” Yeah context is completely meaningless, you’re totally right
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Mar 25, 2018 14:21
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Please don't armchair-diagnose why a celebrity groped another person.
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Mar 25, 2018 15:20
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Bust Rodd posted:Yeah context is completely meaningless, you’re totally right -said the poster with the Ugandan Knuckles avatar
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Mar 25, 2018 19:19
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Vegetable posted:Please don't armchair-diagnose why a celebrity groped another person. Especially a dead one.
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Mar 25, 2018 19:30
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chitoryu12 posted:Knowing Robin Williams, his behavior was probably non-sexual (at least in his mind) and done to everyone in his path regardless of gender or sexuality. Oh, did you now? Don't try to minimise or justify that poo poo, dude.
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Mar 25, 2018 19:34
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teacup posted:Can we stop this random assuming that just because someone looks nice or mean or their persona was such that we just attach this poo poo into them? Same goes for people going “ohhh if “nice guy actor” is a rapist I’ll be so annoyed!!” Robin Williams makes me sad. Thinking about him, looking at his picture. I always liked the guy. I always liked his movies, but there always seemed like somewhat more to him - like Steve Martin who is a wonderful novelist and skillfully plays awful banjo music - or how Shel Silverstein (a Jew) wrote so many famous outlaw country songs - Williams always seemed to have so much more to him. He seemed like a good guy. And then he gets sober, relapses, and kills him self almost right away. It’s like the years of being in the rooms and standing in front of people as an example and the anxiety of humbly admitting failure and “start over” are just too much for him. So he kills himself. I don’t watch Robin Williams movies anymore, I don’t keep them around. Just thinking about him makes me sad. It’s almost worse to see his dead body dug up into headlines because some lady mentioned in one paragraph of her biography that he was kinda handsy 40 years ago. edit: soon we’ll discover Spalding Grey had a dodgy sexual encounter or two over his lifetime. bad day fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Mar 25, 2018 |
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Mar 25, 2018 19:36
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I feel really weird about stories like this coming out about dead celebrities. It's like a weird line I'm straddling, or something. Part of me says 'leave it be, they're dead, just let them stay dead don't drag their name through the papers even if they did something wrong' and the other part of me is like, well, if a dead celebrity did something loving heinous to a person and that victim wants to be heard I can't blame them, either. I didn't look at the Williams article so idk the severity of the allegations.
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Mar 25, 2018 19:40
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They’re all just reporting on the same lines from her biography, only a small part of which talks about Williams.
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Mar 25, 2018 19:43
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esperterra posted:I feel really weird about stories like this coming out about dead celebrities. It's like a weird line I'm straddling, or something. Part of me says 'leave it be, they're dead, just let them stay dead don't drag their name through the papers even if they did something wrong' and the other part of me is like, well, if a dead celebrity did something loving heinous to a person and that victim wants to be heard I can't blame them, either. Jimmy Saville was dead before he was exposed. Not at all comparing the two or anything but the idea of letting sleeping dogs lie when the person in question is dead and beloved- either “for the good of [x]” or because “they’re no longer around to defend themselves” or just because “it would keep things from getting complicated” - is a big part of why we have such a problem with accounting for this poo poo in the first place.
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Mar 25, 2018 19:59
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I think it defintely does come down to severity of the crime, in the end. Like something like Saville I wouldn't want sat on just because he died. But if it's just a celebrity was kind of a jerk then I start to feel weird about it. Like I said it's a weird line for me.
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Mar 25, 2018 20:03
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Killing yourself is not a get-out-of-jail-free card for sexual assault. If anything, being dead just makes the accusations worse, both because it means he can't face any real consequences and because it means whatever he did was so heinous someone still needed to come out with it even though he's dead. If we have any sense at all, the end result of this should be Robin Williams becoming a completely detested figure, and then a completely forgotten one whose works are left on the ash heap of history. It's probably not going to be possible to completely get rid of Aladdin, so maybe we can at least dub him out of it? Dan Castellaneta voiced the Genie in Return Of Jafar. Getting him to voice the Genie in future releases of Aladdin itself would be a good start.
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Mar 25, 2018 20:12
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We should exhume his corpse and beat it up.
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Mar 25, 2018 20:17
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Yes grind his corpse to pulp. Hold no quarter. Incinerate the bones to ash.
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Mar 25, 2018 20:18
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Magic Hate Ball posted:We should exhume his corpse and beat it up. Sounds prohibitively difficult and unnecessary, but I can hardly say it would be unjustified. The world would probably be at least a little bit of a better place, just for the statement it would make. But there are easier and more effective measures.
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Mar 25, 2018 20:20
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Robin Williams was cremated
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Mar 25, 2018 20:23
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sponges posted:Robin Williams was cremated Then simply force his children to eat his ashes. I've always said we're overdue for an auto-da-fé, this way we can roll the mass conservative floggings in with the ceremonial racking of the molesters. We can save on parade funding that way.
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Mar 25, 2018 20:28
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sponges posted:Robin Williams was cremated Okay, then, doubling down on what I said. It would be nice if we could beat him up, but there are much more feasible ways of accomplishing the same thing better.
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Mar 25, 2018 20:28
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Magic Hate Ball posted:We should exhume his corpse and beat it up. Nice to see other people on this site appreciate Repentance.
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Mar 25, 2018 20:30
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21 Muns posted:Killing yourself is not a get-out-of-jail-free card for sexual assault. If anything, being dead just makes the accusations worse, both because it means he can't face any real consequences and because it means whatever he did was so heinous someone still needed to come out with it even though he's dead. If we have any sense at all, the end result of this should be Robin Williams becoming a completely detested figure, and then a completely forgotten one whose works are left on the ash heap of history. er... i don't think you actually read any of the stuff about this and you're just going off "Robin Williams accused of being a sex pest." we're seriously not talking about Jimmy Savile level stuff here, dude made dirty jokes and a couple people saw his dick on the Mork and Mindy set. and the tone with which this was put forth is less "Robin was horrible" and more "Robin was a crazy goof."
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Mar 25, 2018 20:31
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I should clarify that what he did was still lovely. I’m just saying there’s levels between “perfect saint” and “chronic rapist.” Robin Williams supposedly did crap like that to everyone, male and female. I don’t think he had any deeper motivation than being a goofball making dirty jokes.
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Mar 25, 2018 20:38
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Wait are you really suggesting that our response to a woman saying “Robin Williams suggestively touched me and I didn’t mind at all” is to tar and feather his memory and erase him from Aladdin?
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Mar 25, 2018 20:42
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Quick! Heat up the iron maiden! His wife is still on the loose! edit: also, his suicide was attributed to his onsetting dementia. He wasn't trying to "escape" sexual assault allegations. Magic Hate Ball fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Mar 25, 2018 |
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Mar 25, 2018 20:44
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Bust Rodd posted:Wait are you really suggesting that our response to a woman saying “Robin Williams suggestively touched me and I didn’t mind at all” is to tar and feather his memory and erase him from Aladdin? Why would it matter that she didn't mind at all?  If you're driving drunk, I don't particularly care if you're lucky enough to only hit suicidal people.
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Mar 25, 2018 20:45
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because there's nuance and not everything is on the same level? she said she wasn't bothered, Williams had literal decades to clean up his act, and him being a fuckin' weirdo doesn't compare to people who made an absolute habit out of controlling and repressing people with sexual power.
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Mar 25, 2018 20:49
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21 Muns posted:Why would it matter that she didn't mind at all? because the entire basis for it being a bad thing is lack of consent, and she apparently consented?
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Mar 25, 2018 21:01
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Also as she said, it was the 70's and they were probably both on drugs at the time. Robin Williams is a non-story as they were co-stars and she's clearly stated it wasn't non-consensual or a case of him abusing his power or anything like that. Now if you start hearing stories about him abusing kids, drugging or casting couching his co-stars, then you can start acting self-righteous about denouncing him, but when its consensual then all you're doing is virtue signalling.
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Mar 25, 2018 21:02
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21 Muns posted:Why would it matter that she didn't mind at all? Yeah what does ‘consent’ really mean, ya know?
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Mar 25, 2018 21:14
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Tornhelm posted:Also as she said, it was the 70's and they were probably both on drugs at the time. Robin Williams is a non-story as they were co-stars and she's clearly stated it wasn't non-consensual or a case of him abusing his power or anything like that. Lol @"virtue signaling" & she didn't say it was "consensual" (which would require - consent - & not saying "I didn't think it was a big deal retroactively even though I'm writing them into my memoirs"). Also, it being the 70s absolutely informs the power dynamic & Williams absolutely abused that power dynamic. You don't have to think it's a big deal if you don't think it is, there's no obligation to feel any specific way about this. But it's important not to misrepresent the reality of the situation.
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Mar 25, 2018 21:43
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Hat Thoughts posted:Lol @"virtue signaling" & she didn't say it was "consensual" (which would require - consent - & not saying "I didn't think it was a big deal retroactively even though I'm writing them into my memoirs"). Also, it being the 70s absolutely informs the power dynamic & Williams absolutely abused that power dynamic. You don't have to think it's a big deal if you don't think it is, there's no obligation to feel any specific way about this. But it's important not to misrepresent the reality of the situation. That's fair, but "Therefore if we are ethical we must relegate Robin Williams to the dustbin of memory" doesn't really seem to track either.
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Mar 25, 2018 22:12
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Magic Hate Ball posted:We should exhume his corpse and beat it up. There is precedent for this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_Synod quote:Probably around January 897, Stephen VI ordered that the corpse of his predecessor Formosus be removed from its tomb and brought to the papal court for judgment. With the corpse propped up on a throne, a deacon was appointed to answer for the deceased pontiff.
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Mar 26, 2018 01:06
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Electric Bugaloo posted:That's fair, but "Therefore if we are ethical we must relegate Robin Williams to the dustbin of memory" doesn't really seem to track either. I just don't see that as a practical fear, it's not like Song of The South has vanished from people's consciousness despite Disney's efforts to sweep it under the rug I mean, historically, the people actually in danger of being erased or muted out of history have always been those within marginalized communities, those who have long operated within the dominant culture r usually fine. I mean that's the whole concept behind #Metoo right? Like, finally recognizing a voice and a history that's been papered over or effectively ignored. My feelings are that it's important to make these issues heard, immediately remove people who actively create or perpetuate danger for others within their workplace and, vitally, the various structures that allow them to do so. But on the individual level of engaging w/ a lovely human who makes good art that's really up to each person. In the abstract I believe in separating the art from the artist but deciding where you draw that line is always gonna depend on an individual's sensitivities. I don't think I'd really feel comfortable engaging w/ The Cosby Show or Cosby's standup, but at the same time I think someone saying, "I loved The Cosby Show when I was a kid and it means something to me regardless of my feelings towards Cosby" or, "I see value in watching Cosby's standup because it's so important and the foundation for so many comics" is just as valid as I am So, whether or not they should redub Aladdin seems like...their call, y'know? Like, let's say a ton of stuff comes out about Williams, Disney's a company so for them it's probably gonna come down to a business decision. Is Aladdin falling out of favor because less people are comfortable watching it? Is it less loved because every time someone talks about it they throw in an asterisk & Disney by association gets attached 2 the crimes? Seems like those would be the general sort of questions they'd have to deal with, but they're like, y'know, business calls. I don't think any particular good comes out of acting like nothing ever happened
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Mar 26, 2018 03:23
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