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Skwirl posted:Culinary school? Also it's totally a living wage as long as you don't plan to live here that long. No, because as I clearly wrote, it’s *not* a student visa. Also, one of the conditions of a J-1 is that the person has to have health insurance - are restaurants paying for that? From reading this thread that seems unlikely. (WRT to wages, it’s not like that many postdocs are well-paid; I was on about $36k/yr living in San Diego, then $32k/yr in Kentucky. Thankfully that was two careers ago.)
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Mar 26, 2018 03:36
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Liquid Communism posted:Because exploiting the visa system is profitable. Same way the IT industry runs on using H-1B visas to recruit from overseas (primarily India) at wages below what a US graduate with loans to repay can afford to take for a salary. We have a lot of people who work with us on H1-B visas. We literally can not find people who know what we need. IBM doesn't actually train people outside of their support offices in India on the systems we use. We hired 3 of the level 3 support admins and one of the applications senior programmers away from IBM to work for us, all on H1-Bs
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Mar 26, 2018 05:40
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Skwirl posted:It’s totally a living wage as long as you don't plan to live that long. Ftfy, thread title, etc
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Mar 26, 2018 05:57
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Errant Gin Monks posted:We have a lot of people who work with us on H1-B visas. We literally can not find people who know what we need. did you get vendor locked in on ibm stuff or are you working on mainframes
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Mar 26, 2018 06:45
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bob dobbs is dead posted:did you get vendor locked in on ibm stuff or are you working on mainframes Well I'm a mainframe security administrator, (RACF AND CA TSS) but we are a mostly IBM shop in general. Our Identity and Access management stuff is all ISIM and IGI.
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Mar 26, 2018 06:49
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Errant Gin Monks posted:Well I'm a mainframe security administrator, (RACF AND CA TSS) but we are a mostly IBM shop in general. Our Identity and Access management stuff is all ISIM and IGI. so you both got vendor locked on ibm and work on mainframes for olds ibm had a weirdo spate of hugely ageist hiring so i randomly find young escapees over at startupland where i am who had a stint in ibm and were like, "lol death to ibm" i hope you have a plan to get out of the job in <5 years. they've been spiralling for a long time and those kids' understanding was that this is the final spiral. they may be wrong
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Mar 26, 2018 07:18
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bob dobbs is dead posted:so you both got vendor locked on ibm and work on mainframes for olds I think I'm okay. I have plans to extract max knowldege but I work for one of the top 5 world wide car manufacturers so our stuff isn't going anywhere any time soon. If you are looking for some high end mainframe consultants I know some with 40+ years experience.
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Mar 26, 2018 07:49
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Oldsrocket_27 posted:I want to be on your side here, but you can't use low pay as excuse for not doing your job, especially when that's the sort of behavior that traps you in poor wages instead of earning you raises. Have you like, never heard of a strike or?
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Mar 26, 2018 07:56
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Errant Gin Monks posted:I think I'm okay. I have plans to extract max knowldege but I work for one of the top 5 world wide car manufacturers so our stuff isn't going anywhere any time soon. what the hell do car peeps do that requires a ca tss anyhow i hope you learn how to security janitor normal computers sometime friend goon mainframes are not long for the world
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Mar 26, 2018 07:59
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bob dobbs is dead posted:what the hell do car peeps do that requires a ca tss Hahahaha yeah I started as an AD admin. I have a few MCSEs. I'm good. I chose mainframe becuase of how rare a non 80 year old is in the field. Its also fascinating. So weird how it works. They offered me the training and support to get up to speed. We have 4 mainframes worldwide. I'm the main sec admin for all of them. They aren't going anywhere until I die. You would be surprised how much financial and bank data transfers a 50 billion dollar company does. All of it requires mainframe and encryption. I'm amazed every day at what I get to put my hands on.
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Mar 26, 2018 08:12
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From my understanding as someone with a foot in the IT world, mainframes are both hopelessly outdated and also not going anywhere until the last remaining programmers die off.
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Mar 26, 2018 16:28
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Democratic Pirate posted:From my understanding as someone with a foot in the IT world, mainframes are both hopelessly outdated and also not going anywhere until the last remaining programmers die off. They aren't as outdated as people think. There is still no other platform that can handle the number of transactions with the stability of zOS. It really is impressive. It also has the ability run virtual Unix boxes. (Kind of) That being said JCL is hysterically clunky and the terminal (green screen) is amusing to work with. Most of my job is securing transactions, managing the pgp keys and ssl certs, and determining access requirements. Working with the mainframe olds is fun as well. They call other IT people "Matel admins" because their servers are just little toys compared to the mainframe. Errant Gin Monks fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Mar 26, 2018 |
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Mar 26, 2018 16:36
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Democratic Pirate posted:From my understanding as someone with a foot in the IT world, mainframes are both hopelessly outdated and also not going anywhere until the last remaining programmers die off. It's like a lot of ancient legacy stuff in that there are things they're used for that the companies who use them would have to lay out huge expenses to replace them with, if it is even possible given that the software running on them likely won't run on anything else. I've seen some seriously ugly stuff, like industrial machinery running on DOS 3.1 emulated in a Linux box because it won't take commands in any other way without a six to seven digit bill to replace controls hardware.
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Mar 26, 2018 17:05
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Catfishenfuego posted:Have you like, never heard of a strike or? Organizing a strike and not cleaning dirty tables as a server because you make minimum wage are miles apart, but thanks for dredging this argument back up from pages ago. My whole argument sprang from Skwirl's post about "don't expect servers do perform basic functions of their job" post and every post since then in his defense since then has been walking it back and trying to claim it's about the larger issues regarding pay in the industry. The jumping back and forth between an individual's actions and the state of the industry to play whichever part of the argument suits you and ignoring the rest is stupid. I'm aware they're interconnected issues, but pretending the micro and macro can't examined individually is just another distraction from the fact that this whole argument started because someone claimed that if you don't like your pay, you shouldn't be expected to do the parts of your job you don't feel like doing and once everyone jumped in to defend that statement, they've been nothing but intentionally obtuse at every turn.
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Mar 26, 2018 17:06
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Errant Gin Monks posted:They aren't as outdated as people think. There is still no other platform that can handle the number of transactions with the stability of zOS. It really is impressive. It also has the ability run virtual Unix boxes. (Kind of) Oh god, I'm having JCL flashbacks.
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Mar 26, 2018 18:02
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Oldsrocket_27 posted:Organizing a strike and not cleaning dirty tables as a server because you make minimum wage are miles apart, but thanks for dredging this argument back up from pages ago. I wasn't saying servers shouldn't be expected to help clean tables, I was saying they don't enjoy it and inventing new, silly bits of side work like whatever is involved in making perfectly clear ice, would be incredibly annoying.
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Mar 26, 2018 18:13
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Skwirl posted:I wasn't saying servers shouldn't be expected to help clean tables, I was saying they don't enjoy it and inventing new, silly bits of side work like whatever is involved in making perfectly clear ice, would be incredibly annoying. You said cleaning table and rolling silver was "pointless busy work" to the same degree as making perfectly clear ice, which was being presented as a better use of on-the-clock time than dicking around on facebook. Having silverware and a clean table is definitely more important than crystal clear ice, and working when your on the clock, even if it's piddly busy work, comes before wasting time on your phone. Your statement implied that those things weren't true if FOH isn't getting paid more than the legal state minimum. It may be lovely work and it may feel shittier when you're underpaid, but it isn't pointless or less important than phone time.
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Mar 26, 2018 20:03
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Uhhhhhh yeah. Every FOH person should know that silverware and cleaning tables comes before phone time. The hell.
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Mar 26, 2018 20:48
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Wraps can die in a fire. Give me my phone.
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Mar 27, 2018 00:17
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Oldsrocket_27 posted:You said cleaning table and rolling silver was "pointless busy work" to the same degree as making perfectly clear ice, which was being presented as a better use of on-the-clock time than dicking around on facebook. Having silverware and a clean table is definitely more important than crystal clear ice, and working when your on the clock, even if it's piddly busy work, comes before wasting time on your phone. Your statement implied that those things weren't true if FOH isn't getting paid more than the legal state minimum. It may be lovely work and it may feel shittier when you're underpaid, but it isn't pointless or less important than phone time. Look if you're going to use my own words that I typed against me I don't see how we can ever come to consensus. I phrased myself poorly, I was trying to say that restaurant work already contains a lot of tedious work their employees don't like, so managers shouldn't be inventing new forms of it just because they're paying some one the legal minimum they are required to pay them and that person has a minute of downtime and looked at their phone.
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Mar 27, 2018 00:35
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drgitlin posted:I need closure. Did the dishwasher unfuck themselves? No, I worked with her and she is bat poo poo nuts. She's an older black woman who mutters to herself constantly - and I mean constantly - throughout the shift, and I could never really tell if she was talking to me, to herself, about me to herself, about other people, about nothing, whatever. When I got there all 3 sinks were completely full of random dishes in random order; she kept draining and refilling the sanitizer sink literally every 10 minutes, which drained half a container of sanitizer fluid over 3/4th of the shift she actually stayed. She left at 10(scheduled till 12) and left me to do all the really hard poo poo and close. I kept looking over and she'd be scrubbing the wall or some poo poo while there was poo poo loads of dishes to do still, and I was doing them. Eventually I got her to just put clean poo poo away while I cleaned everything because I simply couldn't trust her to do it. I told her again and again and again - 7 times in total - to stop draining the sanitizer. Every time she'd be like 'oh ok' and then 5 minutes later, she'd draining it again for no reason. For reference, I worked lunch today and didn't change my sanitizer a single time because it doesn't get dirty if you don't put dirty dishes in it. you loving clean ugly poo poo off in the slop sink, use the soap sink for what you gotta use it for, and when that poo poo looks immaculate, you put it in the sanitizer, let it dry, put it away. But she wasn't even getting the water dirty, she'd just randomly and without any rhyme or reason change the water. She didn't change it right, either. She'd fill it up 1/4th what it should be. I kept trying to do it right when she'd needlessly change it, but the second I'd walk away from the sink she'd walk by, turn off the sanitizer as it was filling, and then walk off to do something else and I'd turn around and realize it was off. Again, couldn't get her to stop doing this. She's seriously so loving annoying, impossible to have a conversation with because she just didn't seem to speak english very well(no, she doesn't speak any other language). Please god fire this woman.
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Mar 27, 2018 01:06
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There's a decent chance she'll randomly just not show up to work ever again in the near future.
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Mar 27, 2018 01:12
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empty whippet box posted:(absolute insanity)  We only have a dedicated dish guy on weekends (rest of the week it's, "you dirtied it, you wash it"), and he's what we old folks from the pre PC/SJW, pre Tumblr era would call "sweetly retarded". And my guy would do a better job than that. Where do you live that you cant even find vaguely competent dish help?
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Mar 27, 2018 02:32
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JacquelineDempsey posted:
It's shockingly hard to find good dishwashers since the pay is poo poo and it's also a horrible job. Shockingly is probably the wrong word given the rest of the sentence.
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Mar 27, 2018 02:35
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We have a dedicated dishwasher/busser on the weekends, but usually we're a "you bus the tables" as a server. Everyone's job to do dishes. Unless you're this one guy, who does none of them. Zero. Except what he has to do.
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Mar 27, 2018 02:53
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pay dishwashers more and you suddenly won't have a problem filling that position of course the truth is that businesses don't actually want the best employees overall, they want the cheap ones they can abuse
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Mar 27, 2018 03:06
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JawKnee posted:pay We just had someone quit before their first week over the pay being too low 
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Mar 27, 2018 03:11
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iospace posted:We just had someone quit before their first week over the pay being too low sounds like you just need to work harder --your boss
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Mar 27, 2018 03:12
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JawKnee posted:pay dishwashers more and you suddenly won't have a problem filling that position it was a nasty revelation to young me that a lot of people in the industry don't see your uncomplaining hard work as a virtue, just as something to take for granted until they get annoyed that you might no longer provide when you finally ask for something
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Mar 27, 2018 03:20
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JacquelineDempsey posted:
Hattiesburg, MS. I live like almost right next door to the Fuzzy's Taco Shop I work at and I like working there a lot but I get paid 8 an hour and that sucks. I don't find doing dishes to be as oppressive as everyone else seems to, but it is extremely high volume. I have a hard time seeing them attracting any more people willing to bust their asses like I do to do this job, but hey, minimum wage is 7.25 down here. We absolutely have to have a dedicated dish guy on from 9-3 and 5-12. And if it's not someone with some experience doing dishes at that Fuzzy's, it will still be insanely miserable because people constantly need things done on the fly, and you also have to organize poo poo so that you're keeping the front stocked with silverware, both sides of the line are stocked with all types of plates and bowls, and prep has all their tools that they need currently. If massive mountains of dishes and bus tubs pile up on you then you are hosed and everything will be a disaster and someone will have to come back and help you etc etc. I am the only dishwasher that can handle shifts alone so far. Some shifts they have 3. How someone can think that it's OK to hire high schoolers or have mediocre people doing a job like that, or think that that position deserves less pay than anyone else, is just beyond me. I do more work than anybody else in the restaurant and I'm pretty sure I get paid the least. Oh well. That's restaurant owners for you I guess. And lol forever at anyone working the line who thinks I couldn't do their job. I think the line is the easiest job in the restaurant, but that's because I barely even consider expo to be a real job in the first place Also worth noting that I have lost almost 30 pounds since we opened(about 4.5 weeks ago). GhostofJohnMuir posted:it was a nasty revelation to young me that a lot of people in the industry don't see your uncomplaining hard work as a virtue, just as something to take for granted until they get annoyed that you might no longer provide when you finally ask for something I have some hope that when shift leader positions come available, I'll be one of the ones considered. This is a reasonable assumption, I think, because the owners love me and tell me so constantly. I'm one of I think 2-3 people still getting overtime at this point and people show their appreciation for how well I do my job literally every day. However, I also came into this aware that it may be where I stay, without a pay raise, ever. That's OK, while I'd be happy to just work here for a while if they gave me a job paying 12-13 an hour, I'm also finishing my doctorate(writing my dissertation) in music so, like, if I really get tired of this type of work then I have things I can go do. I actually find washing dishes to be less oppressive than trying to make a living as a classical clarinetist. It pays more, too. I expect to be at this place for a little while, and I'm cool with being a dishwasher at 8 an hour the whole time if that's what happens. Especially if people stay appreciative as they've been, it really makes it easier just to feel appreciated. empty whippet box fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Mar 27, 2018 |
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Mar 27, 2018 04:29
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empty whippet box posted:I have some hope that when shift leader positions come available, I'll be one of the ones considered. This is a reasonable assumption, I think, because the owners love me and tell me so constantly. I'm one of I think 2-3 people still getting overtime at this point and people show their appreciation for how well I do my job literally every day. However, I also came into this aware that it may be where I stay, without a pay raise, ever. That's OK, while I'd be happy to just work here for a while if they gave me a job paying 12-13 an hour, I'm also finishing my doctorate(writing my dissertation) in music so, like, if I really get tired of this type of work then I have things I can go do. I actually find washing dishes to be less oppressive than trying to make a living as a classical clarinetist. It pays more, too. i don't want to burst your bubble, especially when i don't know your exact circumstances, but getting promoted to shift lead may be infinitely worse then just working a steady dish pit shift. i kind of roll my eyes at the more culinary mind posters in this thread who post about how it's about the passion and the food, but honestly if you really are as hard working and contentious as you post, there are a ton of industries where you can make as good or better money for less work and with less substance abuse, criminality, destruction of your own body and just general degradation. you're not even collecting those sweet tips a waiter or bartender have the potential to get
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Mar 27, 2018 06:35
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Errant Gin Monks posted:Hahahaha yeah I started as an AD admin. I have a few MCSEs. I'm good. I chose mainframe becuase of how rare a non 80 year old is in the field. Its also fascinating. So weird how it works. They offered me the training and support to get up to speed. hey you don't know of any financial firms wanting to groom an admin for one of these things do you? The Maestro posted:That’s a cute story and all, but there are at least three things wrong with that wine key if you are a service professional. I know I disagree with you on pretty much everything, but I swear I’m not just being contrarian here. I would make so much fun of a server or bartender if they brought one of those to work. naw I don't disagree, those are good points. I don't open wine bottles for a living, and I also am not lovely enough at opening bottles of old wine to break a cork with a single lever, so none of that really occurred to me. the foil cutter is probably pretty gimmicky, and double levers are inherently better than single so I'll give you that.
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Mar 27, 2018 06:57
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:i don't want to burst your bubble, especially when i don't know your exact circumstances, but getting promoted to shift lead may be infinitely worse then just working a steady dish pit shift. i kind of roll my eyes at the more culinary mind posters in this thread who post about how it's about the passion and the food, but honestly if you really are as hard working and contentious as you post, there are a ton of industries where you can make as good or better money for less work and with less substance abuse, criminality, destruction of your own body and just general degradation. you're not even collecting those sweet tips a waiter or bartender have the potential to get yea but it's like right next door to me and I really like tex mex. Honestly I know I could probably find a 'better job' but I'm kinda digging what I got going here for now. I like working in kitchens. I'll get tired of it if I don't advance, I'm sure. But for where I'm at right now(just trying to write this dissertation) it's nice. I don't know if I'll leave the restaurant industry when I either graduate or give up on the dissertation(both of which are equally likely tbh). Also you may be seriously overestimating the opportunity available in Mississippi. If I want to use my degrees, I will have to move. Teaching in a public school in this state would simply not be worth it. Jobs that don't use my degrees - well, dishwasher at a tex mex place right next to my house is honestly the best I'm gonna get until I move to houston(which is what we're ultimately going to do). This state really, really blows.
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Mar 27, 2018 08:50
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Tezcatlipoca posted:What you ignore is that most people don't have the luxury of choice. But you're too far up your own rear end to think about what most people actually have to struggle with. This isn't about opposition to enthusiasm, it's about opposition to your corporate motivational speak coming from a bougie rear end in a top hat who apparently has been overpaid his entire career. You are speaking from privilege to those without it and being a real oval office about it too. I'm not really sure why you'd think I've been overpaid my whole career - I started as a dishwasher and worked mostly as a line cook. I don't know what privilege you are presuming - I had living parents who worked and fed me, taught me how to be a person. I feel pretty lucky to have gotten the support I did but my career is one I worked my way up slowly and put in a significant amount of time working for less money in exchange for more intensive training. I don't really work for a corporation - I work for a restaurant within a hotel as a 3rd party operator. Our "group" is pretty small. Now the corporation that operates the hotel itself pays its line cooks 8 dollars more an hour than we do. But their cooks also get 20-25 hours a week during slow seasons, provides an f&b program that emphasizes efficiency over learning and techniques, and for the most part I see their cooks standing around looking bored. I might not be able to pay my cooks as much money but they do pretty well and get consistent hours. On top of that they get to learn trade skills like butchering, proper knife technique, and all elements of classic and modern cookery. We also encourage them to learn about food, history, ingredients, and all the nuts and bolts about how to operate a business. Later on when the cooks inevitably move on they will hopefully have a better skillset to do what they want in the industry, to choose better jobs. (Sometimes because they like the food better, or the commute is shorter, or yes, because of more money.) I could organize the business so that cooks come in at 4PM, plate a bunch of food, go home at 11:30. I could probably pay them a higher hourly rate that way. I could pay them a higher rate if I bought cheap preportioned steaks and asked the seafod purveyors to clean and fillet all the fish. But allowing cooks the time and product to train properly and make mistakes is expensive. But teaching people proper cooking, proper table service, any of the skills that can be used to further their career ambitions, that is in my opinion a more valuable contribution to a person's life than just giving them a job they could leave or take. I also make about the same amount of money as a busboy on a good week, and a barback on a decent week. I don't know what loving Scrooge McDuck vision you have of me and my glamorous working chef lifestyle, but trust me when I say my own hourly rate when factored against my working hours is pretty dismal. It's cool, though, because I don't need to buy a fancy car and I'd rather operate a sustainable, well-run eatery than whatever the gently caress you do with yourself.
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Mar 27, 2018 11:05
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It's really not that loving hard... PAY the dishwasher... He works his loving rear end off and we won't go through multiple people or people who don't show up. Jesus Christ give him $12 an hour and call it a day. The dishwasher we got now is good and reliable but can also be real rude. Been plenty of times where I had to do a drop and go ( cause we don't have a bus person) to run and clean the table. And he screams at me and I say: "Look bro I'm loving busy to, and these loving customers or what is paying the bills so get the gently caress over it."
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Mar 27, 2018 11:47
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The other dishwashers(not all of them) where I'm at also get mad at people for bringing them dishes. It boggles my mind because dude that is your job. If they didn't bring you the dishes you'd have to go get them yourself. I thank people when they bring stuff to me because it legitimately makes my life easier. According to that living wage chart, where I live (forrest county MS) a living wage for a single person is 11.23. If they gave me that I wouldn't complain about pay for quite a while. However,  never gonna happen.
empty whippet box fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Mar 27, 2018 |
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Mar 27, 2018 15:12
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Crosspost from the OSHA thread.
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Mar 27, 2018 19:55
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I realize I'm filling this thread up with bullshit about dishwashing, but.... I was scheduled to be off today. One of the regular prep people had been bitching about not getting enough hours, so they gave her a 9-3 dishwashing shift today. I said to the owner, you know, she's not a regular dishwasher, you sure she'll be alright alone? So he went ahead and put me on 11-2 to make sure the rush was covered. When I got there, she switched back to prep. The owner comes over and says, no, actually, you're still on dishes, he's just here to help you out. At this point she realized: the only way she was getting more hours was by washing dishes. So she quit. Thanks for the hours, throw 'em on the overtime pile for the week(again).
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Mar 27, 2018 21:11
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empty whippet box posted:The other dishwashers(not all of them) where I'm at also get mad at people for bringing them dishes. It boggles my mind because dude that is your job. If they didn't bring you the dishes you'd have to go get them yourself. I thank people when they bring stuff to me because it legitimately makes my life easier. Are they getting mad at people bringing them dishes, or stacking them with all the skills of a toddler? I really hate it when servers put plates of the same size/shape beside each other, then build rickety towers of misshaped dishes I have to slowly disassemble else I drop everything on the floor.
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Mar 27, 2018 22:36
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mindphlux posted:hey you don't know of any financial firms wanting to groom an admin for one of these things do you? Nope. That doesn't happen. You get in as a Windows admin, you express interest in the mainframe to the old mainframe guys and they adopt you. Sooner or later they convince someone to move you over and learn because they are going to die soon.
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Mar 27, 2018 23:33
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