|
I thought a 30min mash would do some damage to my normally-high efficiency, but my preboil OG was spot on ~85%. I don't think I'll be going back to long mashes barring some extenuating circumstances. After I did a real quick sparge, I added that to the already heating first runnings in the kettle and left my bag hanging to drain over my smaller kettle. By the time the boil had started, there was some color left in the 3rd(?) runnings, but no detectable sugars so I'd call that a win.
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2018 20:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 20, 2024 03:21 |
|
|
I do 90 minute mashes, not for reasons of efficiency, but for flavor and mouthfeel. Of course, your mileage will vary, but I just like the beer better when I do a 90-minute mash vs. 60 minutes. Lots of homebrewing books have told me that 30 minutes is all you really need to convert a mash, but there must be more going on than that; a guy I know who works for one of the big industrial breweries tells me that they sometimes mash as long as 210 minutes (3.5 hours!) to get the wort they want out of it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2018 21:30
|
|
|
Jo3sh posted:I do 90 minute mashes, not for reasons of efficiency, but for flavor and mouthfeel. Of course, your mileage will vary, but I just like the beer better when I do a 90-minute mash vs. 60 minutes. Lots of homebrewing books have told me that 30 minutes is all you really need to convert a mash, but there must be more going on than that; a guy I know who works for one of the big industrial breweries tells me that they sometimes mash as long as 210 minutes (3.5 hours!) to get the wort they want out of it. So what kind of changes go on after / during longer mashes?
|
|
#
?
Mar 29, 2018 21:33
|
|
|
Jo3sh posted:I do 90 minute mashes, not for reasons of efficiency, but for flavor and mouthfeel. Of course, your mileage will vary, but I just like the beer better when I do a 90-minute mash vs. 60 minutes. Lots of homebrewing books have told me that 30 minutes is all you really need to convert a mash, but there must be more going on than that; a guy I know who works for one of the big industrial breweries tells me that they sometimes mash as long as 210 minutes (3.5 hours!) to get the wort they want out of it. My understanding from when pro brewers talk about super long mashes, it's mostly because of how large their volume is and because running off and getting everything mixed properly takes a long goddamn time. I've also heard of brewers who have a really short actual static mash time because of how long those take as well, since the grain will be in contact with the water for plenty of time by the time all is said and done. I've always done 60-90 minute mashes on everything, but I do want to try sort of a "short and shoddy" beer with a 30 minute mash and 30 minute boil sometime just to see how it comes out. It sounds like there are a number of beers that do just fine with that process.
|
|
#
?
Mar 30, 2018 01:24
|
|
|
Marshmallow Blue posted:So what kind of changes go on after / during longer mashes? I didn't really get what he was saying, but it has something to do with the composition of the wort. Industrial lagers are definitely engineered to exacting standards, and that's what they have to do to meet them. rockcity posted:My understanding from when pro brewers talk about super long mashes, it's mostly because of how large their volume is and because running off and getting everything mixed properly takes a long goddamn time. I suppose that's part of it, but they pump to a lauter tun for the actual runoff. My buddy's not a goon (that I know of), so I can't get him to chime in here, but the impression I got was that they mash for a long time to get a specific chemical composition of the wort, not just for procedural reasons. It may also have something to do with the high ratio of adjuncts they use. I'll try to remember to ask him next we meet for a beer.
|
|
#
?
Mar 30, 2018 01:45
|
|
|
I'm not sure I get the long mash cycle. If I'm brewing on an InBev scale though, I'm using multiple hundreds of pounds of grain per batch and a 1% efficiency change might equal a few hundred dollars. I've never done a long mash, so I can't say if it'd do anything, but I dunno.
|
|
#
?
Mar 30, 2018 01:50
|
|
|
I'd be curious to see more on this from the Brulosophy guys. I know they did one on DMS with shorter boils and they're very into the short and shoddy beers, but I don't know if they've done one on mash times. I find their triangle testing super interesting. They just did one on roasted grains where they tested some grains that you would definitely expect to be noticeably different in a beer and got non-significant results.
|
|
#
?
Mar 30, 2018 02:28
|
|
|
I think you'd need something more than a triangle test for this to be significant. Which is unfortunate, but I suspect that you'd end up extracting more of certain compounds with the extended mashing than you would otherwise. Or that this 3 hours mash includes multiple steps and isn't just an infusion mash. I'd think that was more likely as well. I do remember a chapter on mashes and the chemical processes that occur in this Chemistry of Brewing book that I have, but it's late and I won't try to understand chemistry until I'm at least two cups of coffee in tomorrow morning. If I find anything I will report back.
|
|
#
?
Mar 30, 2018 05:52
|
|
|
Oh yeah, there's a point for some of those long mashes, but in a stepped process like Protein Rests and Cereal rests, but modern highly-modified malts and already 'cooked' adjuncts like Torrified Wheat or Flaked Corn don't require those steps. --- Fake Double Post - My lager finished up last night and turned out pretty good. There's still some detectable diacetyl, but it's significantly down from BUTTERSCOTCH CANDIES!!! to a faint and not entirely unpleasant smell. It definitely tastes like a lager and I'm happy with it. It came in almost a full percent ABV higher than I'd planned and it covers that up completely. robotsinmyhead fucked around with this message at 12:06 on Mar 30, 2018 |
|
#
?
Mar 30, 2018 11:32
|
|
|
I recently built a kettle from a 33L fermentation bucket to shift into BIAB AG brews instead of extract. I intend to get some kind of mash tun down the line to do stronger recipes that use a ton of grain (barley wine etc) but I'm starting to think I should have gone a little bigger. My first brew with this is making a 23L IPA with 5.2kg total grain and after plugging the numbers into brewsmith it estimates I need to start with 29L of water, and I think dumping the grains on top of that would be pushing it (beersmith estimates it will use 32.74L). I don't really trust the pregenerated numbers for water loss in beersmith but without any experience I figure it's a good place to start and measure the actual numbers for next time. So I was thinking perhaps the way to do this (other than brewing less higher abv beer) is to start with 24L water or so and then (probably cold water) sparge up to the target preboil volume, 26L. Would this have a significant impact on my efficiency either way? Also, does milling your own grain improve efficiency much? I read somewhere that with BIAB you could get away with a much finer grind because it can't clog anything through the bag. I could probably ask my supplier to mill it finer but it would probably go stale faster too.
|
|
#
?
Mar 30, 2018 13:45
|
|
|
Crack posted:Also, does milling your own grain improve efficiency much? I read somewhere that with BIAB you could get away with a much finer grind because it can't clog anything through the bag. I could probably ask my supplier to mill it finer but it would probably go stale faster too. I BIAB and grind the hell out of my grain. You don't really have to worry about stuck sparges, though it's good practice to take your time mixing your grain into your mash water to avoid doughballs.
|
|
#
?
Mar 30, 2018 13:47
|
|
|
Jhet posted:I think you'd need something more than a triangle test for this to be significant. Which is unfortunate, but I suspect that you'd end up extracting more of certain compounds with the extended mashing than you would otherwise. Or that this 3 hours mash includes multiple steps and isn't just an infusion mash. I'd think that was more likely as well. I do remember a chapter on mashes and the chemical processes that occur in this Chemistry of Brewing book that I have, but it's late and I won't try to understand chemistry until I'm at least two cups of coffee in tomorrow morning. If I find anything I will report back. Anything past 20 minutes at stepped temperatures for protein or sacch rest is pointless. For my protein, I sit at 120-122 for 10 minutes, beta amylase rest is 140 for 15-20, and alpha is 155-160 for 20. I typically sit at 115 for ferulic acid for 10-15 if I make a weiss. At the brewery we use a 30bbl system and we tend to sit for about 50min in MLT just to ensure full thermal consistency - we typically have the rakes moving super slow to avoid disturbing the vorlauf too much but enough to get even temperature through the mash. Longer contact definitely changes wort composition, particularly with respect to what either hydrolyzes or enzymatically is released; but temperature obviously has a lot to do with this as well. Everyone knows not to sit too long at too high a temperature with really dark malts to reduce tannin (as an example). I’d need to dig up my brewing chem books as well - but I really doubt it becomes much of an issue until you reach levels of scale that cause issues, such as laminar flow issues during vorlauf, etc.
|
|
#
?
Mar 30, 2018 14:29
|
|
|
Jhet posted:I think you'd need something more than a triangle test for this to be significant. Which is unfortunate, but I suspect that you'd end up extracting more of certain compounds with the extended mashing than you would otherwise. Or that this 3 hours mash includes multiple steps and isn't just an infusion mash. I'd think that was more likely as well. I do remember a chapter on mashes and the chemical processes that occur in this Chemistry of Brewing book that I have, but it's late and I won't try to understand chemistry until I'm at least two cups of coffee in tomorrow morning. If I find anything I will report back. I am certain that chemically it will do something but more and more I am seeing results on a lot of stuff like that where it just isn’t even all that detectable to blind tasters. A lot of mashing science is still based on old studies with malt that is completely different from what we are using today as well.
|
|
#
?
Mar 30, 2018 15:14
|
|
|
robotsinmyhead posted:I BIAB and grind the hell out of my grain. You don't really have to worry about stuck sparges, though it's good practice to take your time mixing your grain into your mash water to avoid doughballs. Do you think it made a big difference in terms of efficiency though? I'm thinking of maybe getting a mill, which may not be the most expensive thing in this hobby but if it's only going to pay for itself after 1000s of brews I'd rather chuck the money at a keg or something.
|
|
#
?
Mar 30, 2018 19:17
|
|
|
If you do get a mill, make sure you either motorize it DIY with a drill or get a motorized one. Otherwise you'll get tired of hand milling 12 + pounds of grain every brewday. My mill is back in storage until I motorize it. Other than that though, i do like it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 30, 2018 19:43
|
|
|
Crack posted:Do you think it made a big difference in terms of efficiency though? I'm thinking of maybe getting a mill, which may not be the most expensive thing in this hobby but if it's only going to pay for itself after 1000s of brews I'd rather chuck the money at a keg or something. The big saving for me in owning a mill is not in efficiency, but in the ability to buy base malts in bulk. If you live anywhere close to a shop that sells sacks for reasonable prices, you'll save loads over the per-pound price. Of course, you also need a way to store the grain. Jo3sh fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Mar 30, 2018 |
|
#
?
Mar 30, 2018 20:09
|
|
|
Jo3sh posted:The big saving for me in owning a mill is not in efficiency, but in the ability to buy base malts in bulk. If you live anywhere close to a shop that sells sacks for reasonable prices, you'll save loads over the per-pound price. When I first started all grain, I was able to buy directly from Country Malt Group, since they didn't own a homebrew arm at that point. I was getting sacks for $35 each. I think my mill paid for itself in just over two sacks, since the local shop was charging about $1.50 per pound for base malt. Plus, my efficiency did go up, their mill gap was nuts.
|
|
#
?
Mar 30, 2018 20:33
|
|
|
I've been milling on my friend's old meat grinder-turned-mill and it really does an excellent job. A few months back, I brewed with another friend and used his Cereal Killer with a "stock" gap and my efficiency was more than 10pts different than I'm used to. Not sure why he mills like that, but he won't budge on it. So IMO, it makes a difference.
|
|
#
?
Mar 30, 2018 22:02
|
|
|
gamera009 posted:Anything past 20 minutes at stepped temperatures for protein or sacch rest is pointless. For my protein, I sit at 120-122 for 10 minutes, beta amylase rest is 140 for 15-20, and alpha is 155-160 for 20. I typically sit at 115 for ferulic acid for 10-15 if I make a weiss. Yeah, tannin is the one that sprung to mind. I'm pretty sure there are other things, but you're probably right that it doesn't matter on a homebrew scale particularly much. Then there's also the lack of problem with your brewhouse efficiency being a big cost sink at home too. I'd almost expect the ratios of the other compounds to be extracted at a different rate in a large scale tun, but I didn't have a spare minute to look at that book today as I'd forgotten that I was being used as a painter until my wife reminded me I had a bedroom to paint for her. Conversion itself though really doesn't take particularly long compared to what it used to take either, and we all know just how stuck in the past some brewers can be. Marshmallow Blue posted:If you do get a mill, make sure you either motorize it DIY with a drill or get a motorized one. Otherwise you'll get tired of hand milling 12 + pounds of grain every brewday. My mill is back in storage until I motorize it. Other than that though, i do like it. Just use a drill, most chucks will fit the arm just fine. It's worth sitting there and holding it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2018 02:06
|
|
|
Jhet posted:
Yeah, this is all I do for mine. I just hold the drill and go slow. Takes just a few min this way.
|
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2018 12:53
|
|
|
The drill works great for milling, I have a Cereal Killer, my only wish for my setup is a larger hopper. I brewed the Kolsch I made last month over the weekend. My goal has been trying to dial my system in a bit more in regards to grind size. The first time I made it, last August, I had issues with recirculation during the mash. My grind size was pretty much flour setting. Last month I bumped it to a larger size and was about 7 points off my estimated gravity. This weekend I tried a size between the two and seemed to hit it right on the mark. I imbibed a few too many during the brew so haven't had a chance to go back to my notes. Honestly, I'm surprised I remember to put the yeast in. What I'm trying to do is find the sweet spot where I get my efficiencies but don't get any by product clinging to my elements. I had issues trying to make a Roggenbier with something from the rye burning on my elements. I'm thinking that I was grinding too fine causing something to accumulate on my elements.
|
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2018 13:24
|
|
|
calandryll posted:I have a Cereal Killer, my only wish for my setup is a larger hopper. I used my 3D printer to make an adapter that lets me thread a Fermonster PET fermenter into the mouth of the Cereal Killer. The 7-gallon size, with the bottom cut out, makes a hopper that holds more than 30 pounds of grain, easy.
|
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2018 15:43
|
|
|
Jo3sh posted:I used my 3D printer to make an adapter that lets me thread a Fermonster PET fermenter into the mouth of the Cereal Killer. The 7-gallon size, with the bottom cut out, makes a hopper that holds more than 30 pounds of grain, easy. I remember the WIP pics you posted. That's a rad solution right there.
|
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2018 15:51
|
|
|
I'm gonna go cheapo on my side. My friend's meat grinder-turned-grain mill has like a 3cup hopper and it's a pain in the rear end, so I'm gonna whip up some kinda thing with cat litter jugs.
|
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2018 16:09
|
|
|
Jo3sh posted:I used my 3D printer to make an adapter that lets me thread a Fermonster PET fermenter into the mouth of the Cereal Killer. The 7-gallon size, with the bottom cut out, makes a hopper that holds more than 30 pounds of grain, easy. Hmm, time to convince the wife that a 3D printer is needed.  I really need to sit down and make a better stand and something like the brewpi for my controller. In addition to a better setup/stand for the grain mill.
|
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2018 17:01
|
|
|
Jo3sh posted:I used my 3D printer to make an adapter that lets me thread a Fermonster PET fermenter into the mouth of the Cereal Killer. The 7-gallon size, with the bottom cut out, makes a hopper that holds more than 30 pounds of grain, easy. I was thinking about that today. Do you still have the print file for it? There's a print shop not too far from me that does 3D orders for fairly cheap and I'm sick of my hopper falling off the thing.
|
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2018 23:39
|
|
|
Jhet posted:I was thinking about that today. Do you still have the print file for it? There's a print shop not too far from me that does 3D orders for fairly cheap and I'm sick of my hopper falling off the thing. I should still have it around. PM me your email address and I will send it to you.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2018 00:29
|
|
|
calandryll posted:Hmm, time to convince the wife that a 3D printer is needed. FWIW, I've been really happy with my Monoprice printer. It cost hundreds, not thousands, of dollars. Just on my mill cart, I printed three parts that would otherwise have been difficult to make, plus all kinds of other fun stuff - including an all-printed model rocket.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2018 15:15
|
|
|
My saison kicked and now I'm paler beer-less again. I wanted to brew a KY Common next, but I think a standard bitter or APA might be necessary. Honestly, I think I should just buy a new bucket and write 3711 on it in permanent marker and go back to using it. That or just use my sour kit for it. Or maybe I just need to brew about 6 batches to keep in a cellar to drink. Such wonderful problems to have.Jo3sh posted:FWIW, I've been really happy with my Monoprice printer. It cost hundreds, not thousands, of dollars. Just on my mill cart, I printed three parts that would otherwise have been difficult to make, plus all kinds of other fun stuff - including an all-printed model rocket. Thanks for the plans. I'd buy a printer, but I've been spending my 'allowance' on woodworking tools and I doubt I could slip a 3D printer into the house without my better half noticing. It would be interesting if I were adept at modeling in any regards, but my CAD skills are even pretty basic. It does mean that I'll probably build a stand for it, if I can ever figure out how to easily get a full sheet of plywood home in my hatchback. Probably just need to buy a few and strap them to the roof rack.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2018 16:46
|
|
|
Jo3sh posted:FWIW, I've been really happy with my Monoprice printer. It cost hundreds, not thousands, of dollars. Just on my mill cart, I printed three parts that would otherwise have been difficult to make, plus all kinds of other fun stuff - including an all-printed model rocket. Oh cool, which one do you have? If I was going to print anything it would be small stuff to play around with.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2018 17:36
|
|
|
calandryll posted:Oh cool, which one do you have? If I was going to print anything it would be small stuff to play around with. I have the Maker Select Plus. The main advantage of this over the Maker Select is that it is a 24 volt machine, which avoids some current-draw issues and overheating/burning of circuits. I looked at the smaller MP Select Mini, and it's supposed to be a very good machine for the price, but I decided that I wanted the larger build volume. The Mini is probably good for farting around, but the larger volume means larger farts, or something.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2018 18:01
|
|
|
Jhet posted:My saison kicked and now I'm paler beer-less again. I wanted to brew a KY Common next, but I think a standard bitter or APA might be necessary. Honestly, I think I should just buy a new bucket and write 3711 on it in permanent marker and go back to using it. That or just use my sour kit for it. Or maybe I just need to brew about 6 batches to keep in a cellar to drink. Such wonderful problems to have. I'm brewing saison next weekend and I'm already super excited. One of the best things about brewing is the anticipation, in my opinion. Especially since I'm pretty strict with myself when it comes to brewing season appropriate styles.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2018 18:26
|
|
|
Jhet posted:My saison kicked and now I'm paler beer-less again. I wanted to brew a KY Common next, but I think a standard bitter or APA might be necessary. Honestly, I think I should just buy a new bucket and write 3711 on it in permanent marker and go back to using it. That or just use my sour kit for it. Or maybe I just need to brew about 6 batches to keep in a cellar to drink. Such wonderful problems to have. Honestly, I’ve had zero issues with diastaticus. Caustic and surface sani with acid rinse is fine. Right now is a great time to play with witbier and pretty much all permutations of it. Also, pretty much playing with dry hopping the poo poo out of crisp pale lagers.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2018 18:33
|
|
|
Alarbus posted:When I first started all grain, I was able to buy directly from Country Malt Group, since they didn't own a homebrew arm at that point. So does that mean that they just don't sell direct to homebrewers anymore? Because if Morebeer can't get Briess Ashburne Mild Malt for me anymore, I'm going to be up a creek. San Diego is kind of a drive for me, but if I needed to, I would do it. ... And if I do that, would any SoCal brewgoons be interested in going in on a large order? I looked into this a number of years ago with some coworkers, but couldn't quite get enough brewers together to make it work out. But if I am going to drive through Ventura, LA, Orange, and SD counties anyway, there's no reason I could not stop off along the way and meet goons / drop off malt. I'd do it for my cost plus a little something for fuel, but no profit. I've got a ridiculous truck, and I'm not afraid to use it. Jo3sh fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Apr 3, 2018 |
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2018 18:43
|
|
|
^ CMG is being a turd when it comes to group buys. Just FYI. They won't sell to us anymore, but the other big maltsters have no issues. Something about the LHBS's complaining. No idea why it matters to CMG, but that's 10-20k every 6 months that will just go elsewhere and not to the LHBS still. It wouldn't be a problem, but they mark it up so much in this area that it really makes a difference. You'll still be able to get your malts from morebeer and the other brew shops the same as always.gamera009 posted:Honestly, I’ve had zero issues with diastaticus. Caustic and surface sani with acid rinse is fine. I wish that were the case. I've had issues with it ruining a stout and a porter while not drinking them quickly enough. I'd worry less after I set up a recirculating system for cleaning, but until I've got that done I'll keep things separate. I wish I had better temp control too, but it's already too warm in my brew space to maintain lager temps. A crisp lager would be wonderful, but I may just have to go with a kolsch strain instead.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2018 19:06
|
|
|
Well, I've got everything set up, I've just got to wait for my rhizome to arrive. I decided to follow more specific instructions from a nice looking guide over at the immaculate brewery blog. They suggest making a "topiary" out of the vine, almost like a bush. I'll be sure to let everyone know if it's a complete disaster, or maybe I'll have some cool beer to show off instead? Who knows! http://immaculatebrewery.com/growing-hops-at-home/
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2018 01:38
|
|
|
Jhet posted:I wish that were the case. I've had issues with it ruining a stout and a porter while not drinking them quickly enough. I'd worry less after I set up a recirculating system for cleaning, but until I've got that done I'll keep things separate. Any idea where the cross contamination came from? Are you still using buckets and glass carboys? As far as lagering goes, it’s reasonably easy to put together a peltier system to help maintain temperature if you’re space limited. I went with a couple of chest freezers from Costco with probe/cutoff switches for temperature regulation. I’m a pedantic rear end, so I have one that is 45-50 for initial fermentation, then one at 35-40 for cold crash overnight and long term storage (I never manage to keep kegs full for more than a month). Works well, and I’m moving to steel conicals at home for better replication of recipes and fermentation profile. I’m hoping to scale to half bbl soon.    Hops are coming in nicely! Almost time to select the vines I want to keep and send up the twine. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2018 02:22
|
|
|
gamera009 posted:Any idea where the cross contamination came from? Are you still using buckets and glass carboys? ^ Is that a juniper on the ground there too? I can't make out the shape. Fairly certain it was the bottling bucket and the plastics there. Either that or the fermentation buckets themselves. I have some glass carboys, but I try to move them almost never and they tend to just hold cider in bulk 'aging' (storage) until it gets packaged. I just retired it all after it happened and haven't had a problem since. The stout and porter that were infected were in the same time span, and just keeping things segregated has worked since. But I'm not really interested in taking chances when the other saison strains make great beer, but they just take longer than the 3 day fermentation times that I was able to achieve with 3711. I have the room for temp control, but I don't have the electrical where there's room yet. It's on a list of things to do, but there are more pressing home improvement projects which take priority. For now I rely on it being that 45-50 in a room in my basement, but it wasn't cold enough for long enough when I actually had time to brew more than 1 lager this weak winter where I am. I say this in a week where the weather has been poo poo again and all the green that's been coming up is going to be sad if it does snow again. My hops are still just only threatening as i had a week of about 50 outside and then it's been freezing since. I'm excited to see how much they'll do this year.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2018 04:06
|
|
|
Jhet posted:^ Is that a juniper on the ground there too? I can't make out the shape. It might be time to splurge on a temperature controlled conical. I’ve brewed in my fairly consistently since I’ve picked it up - almost entirely IPA/saison with it and it is definitely worth it. Nabbing the sprayball attachment was also a massive plus since I can cycle caustic and acid sani for fifteen minutes, lock it up, and it’s done until next brew day. The new uni tank from Spike it pretty baller. My brew lab at work will be picking some up, so I can probably provide a review of them if people are interested.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2018 15:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 20, 2024 03:21 |
|
|
I'd love stainless and a full CIP, but it's not realistic for a while on my scale. I'll settle for building a keg washer and recirculating line cleaner. I just tested the brown sour I packaged about a week and a half ago because 'science' of course. I wanted to see just how bad the THP was going to be, and while it is carbing fine thanks to all the microbes, but holy crackers does it taste like cereal. I guess I'll check again in a month or two. A small part of me thought that it couldn't possibly be as bad as all these people suggest and it's just a low threshold for flavor. Totally masked the flavor of the underlying beer.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2018 20:46
|
|