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temple posted:What are the unique criticisms of bp that aren't reductions to fit it in the traditional super hero critiques? Read the thread. That might help.
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Apr 2, 2018 11:37
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unstucker posted:Is it worth to watch this film? It's OK. A little boring and predictable but Jordan's pretty good. Renoistic fucked around with this message at 14:10 on Apr 2, 2018 |
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Apr 2, 2018 14:07
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temple posted:you are poisoning the film by using trump and blm to paint clear lines of morality. and the reason for revolution wasn't the point building tech centers or killmonger coming to wakanda. How is he gonna check a body he threw off a cliff? The king was saved by someone else(blatant interference the trial by combat was specifically designed against) then the former ruling class stole the rightful kings property, and gave it to tchalla. Even mbaku saw nothing wrong with his definitive loss. The movie is purposely written for t'challa to come out looking clean, but it can't even pull that off. The end of the movie is, we hate tradition, so throw it out and let us keep our tradition. You have done nothing but stifled conversation and none of your reasons have followed through beyond you being a marvel fan. Please better think out your responses, especially when you're trying to generalize an entire thread you obviously didn't read. bushisms.txt fucked around with this message at 14:34 on Apr 2, 2018 |
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Apr 2, 2018 14:25
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Inescapable Duck posted:I think that while it's quite valid to bring up the bad, muddled and unfortunate politics and implications of the movie, it's still also worth acknowledging that marginalised people can take a positive message away from it regardless and accept that it might be a good thing in the long run. (if only because the bad stuff is something that everyone's exposed to anyway, it's nearly background noise in commercial art) Inescapable Duck posted:I think that while it's quite valid to bring up the bad, muddled and unfortunate politics and implications of the movie, it's still also worth acknowledging that marginalised people can take a positive message away from it regardless and accept that it might be a good thing in the long run. (if only because the bad stuff is something that everyone's exposed to anyway, it's nearly background noise in commercial art) Good take but too nuanced. I’d rather just shame whites for Barry Convex posted:I'd say less that they're racist and more that many of them are just engaging in standard-issue fanboy tribalism that they've convinced themselves is rooted in Serious Intellectual Leftist Critique but ymmv I’d say it’s racism
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Apr 2, 2018 14:55
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Those straw men are getting rekt
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Apr 2, 2018 14:57
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bushisms.txt posted:How is he gonna check a body he threw off a cliff? The king was saved by someone else(blatant interference the trial by combat was specifically designed against) then the former ruling class stole the rightful kings property, and gave it to tchalla. Even mbaku saw nothing wrong with his definitive loss. The movie is purposely written for t'challa to come out looking clean, but it can't even pull that off. The end of the movie is, we hate tradition, so throw it out and let us keep our tradition. stop talking about me, i don't think i've posted in the marvel thread. i don't even like marvel movies.
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Apr 2, 2018 15:03
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It is really funny that it's staged on the edge of a cliff but there is no provision for, you know, checking if the guy gets thrown off is dead.
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Apr 2, 2018 15:09
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If you want to talk about finding truthful aspects in a ‘problematic’ film, then we are talking redemptive interpretation. And in that case, we should examine the conventional, preferred reading of Killmonger: that he’s ‘twisted by vengeance’ and totally crazy. (Note: the name of the series is The Avengers, about a bunch of good guys who love vengeance.) ‘Killing the children of the oppressors’ is an obvious nonsense if approached with boneheaded literalism, because of course genocide of white Christian babies would be oppressive. But let’s presume for a moment that the oppressed peoples of the world are not utterly moronic Himmlers who will indulge in orgiastic slaughter once armed. Is Tony Stark’s ‘baby’ not Stark Industries itself? The truth of Eric’s statement is that he opposes a mere changing of the guard, or otherwise compromised approach. He’s talking about dismantling systems of oppression, calling for permanent revolution.
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Apr 2, 2018 15:11
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temple posted:the point being, the ritual was undermined by circumstance. to say t'challa cheated is just being hostile towards him for personal reasons. the rules weren't "if you get thrown off a cliff". So yes, he does cheat. Personal reasons including wanting a solid movie that doesn't sell my people respectability politics? You folks keep popping in talking about racism when i have a family slave name. I'm well aware of our history and how this movie is lacking in honoring it. bushisms.txt fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Apr 2, 2018 |
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Apr 2, 2018 15:18
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bushisms.txt posted:He was given a flower that wasn't his to get. If the trial was still going, shouldn't he have told them to wait and let him, you know, learn something? Instead, they don't even talk to him, they give it to him and make him better without him having to do anything. The end of the movie could've been a fight in the throne room so the death could be sure, and an unneeded civil war didn't have to take place. Not for nothing is the film compared to The Lion King.
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Apr 2, 2018 15:19
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bushisms.txt posted:He was given a flower that wasn't his to get. If the trial was still going, shouldn't he have told them to wait and let him, you know, learn something? Instead, they don't even talk to him, they give it to him and make him better without him having to do anything. The end of the movie could've been a fight in the throne room so the death could be sure, and an unneeded civil war didn't have to take place.
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Apr 2, 2018 15:27
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I'll never be able to get over the last credit sequence. After all that, we're treated to shuri making sure a former nazi weapon is comfortable within their walls. They just did a whole sequence where tchalla is fast enough to stab Eric through the receding holes in his armor, but when Eric commits suicide, tchalla just watched. This is preceded by the movie flaunting their ability to heal paralysis with entry wound sized beads. Imagine if shuri is leading a bandaged killmonger to these huts and Bucky comes out to help. You get character building and an uplifting story. Nah, Thanos is coming, no time. temple posted:Giving him the flower is a fair point. But killmonger and the border tribe didn't fight fair. So, why not criticize killmonger? bushisms.txt fucked around with this message at 15:32 on Apr 2, 2018 |
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Apr 2, 2018 15:30
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you are referring to a guy who is shown to be subject to literal mind control by the nazis he was specifically fighting, right
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Apr 2, 2018 15:33
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Inescapable Duck posted:you are referring to a guy who is shown to be subject to literal mind control by the nazis he was specifically fighting, right The movies have a history of pleading that bad guys are good deep down. It's why loki and Bucky get to live movie to movie. This claim is not made for killmonger, care to guess why? Feel free to use your previous posts as reference. Notice the losers of the civil war never reflect on anything other than symbolic black on black crime in a terrible slow motion shot.
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Apr 2, 2018 15:36
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bushisms.txt posted:The movies have a history of pleading that bad guys are good deep down. It's why loki and Bucky get to live movie to movie.This claim is not made for killmonger, care to guess why? Feel free to use your previous posts as reference. This reminds me of something Alan Moore did with Tom Strong which I thought was fascinating - pretty much none of his encounters with his "villains" ended in him destroying them, nor does he bend them to his will. His solutions almost always include compromise, which is kind of unsettling when you notice it.
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Apr 2, 2018 15:41
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bushisms.txt posted:The movies have a history of pleading that bad guys are good deep down. It's why loki and Bucky get to live movie to movie. This claim is not made for killmonger, care to guess why? Feel free to use your previous posts as reference. Notice the losers of the civil war never reflect on anything other than symbolic black on black crime in a terrible slow motion shot. Because they aren't actually interested in addressing how oppression is what the entire capitalist system is built on, obv just saying it's a bad analogy because again, literal mind control, and there was a whole movie about how the guy want to be free of the button that was put into his head that lets literal nazis control him because he does not want to be controlled by literal nazis I suppose you can make like a PTSD or indoctrination metaphor for it but you might want to say you're doing that first
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Apr 2, 2018 15:45
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Inescapable Duck posted:Because they aren't actually interested in addressing how oppression is what the entire capitalist system is built on, obv A man and his son found out millions of they're own blood were being enslaved and murdered openly and that's not enough of an excuse to try and help them. Instead you give lip service to their oppressors and do the bare minimum to keep your queen off your back. That's your king?
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Apr 2, 2018 15:57
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Interference doesn't actually seem outlawed. In Mbaku's attempt both Tchalla's people and Mbaku's people were engaged and there to keep the other side honest. Both closing in as one gained an advantage with the other following to prevent them from interfering.
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Apr 2, 2018 17:50
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Dexo posted:Interference doesn't actually seem outlawed. If preventing interference keeps things honest, then the rule is no interference.
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Apr 2, 2018 17:57
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No really, it's surprising that Zuri outright interferes in a deathblow and the match isn't called in favor of Erik right there.
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Apr 2, 2018 18:04
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FilthyImp posted:No really, it's surprising that Zuri outright interferes in a deathblow and the match isn't called in favor of Erik right there. This rule would be absurdly exploitable. Zuri just interferes on behalf of Erik, and then T'Challa auto-wins. Zuri merely being executed, and then the fight continuing, is a reasonable, moderate solution on Erik's part. Good leadership, really.
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Apr 2, 2018 18:11
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Dexo posted:Interference doesn't actually seem outlawed. People gasp in shock when Zuri saves T’Challa from being beheaded. Presumably it’s not because that’s a normal and expected part of the ritual. Likewise, if interference is good and fine then Tchalla’a family are real dicks for watching him get skewered and thrown off a cliff without doing poo poo to help.
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Apr 2, 2018 18:12
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FilthyImp posted:No really, it's surprising that Zuri outright interferes in a deathblow and the match isn't called in favor of Erik right there. Everything past that point is treated as fait accompli. There’s no sense that T’challa can still win, it’s merely drawing out the inevitable so Erik can complete his revenge.
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Apr 2, 2018 18:18
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Sir Kodiak posted:If preventing interference keeps things honest, then the rule is no interference. No because people getting in the fight implied that if there was a king with no backing from any one(in the situation where all the tribes are gathered) they would have no one to back them and intervene on their behalf if others jump in.
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Apr 2, 2018 18:27
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Dexo posted:No because people getting in the fight implied that if there was a king with no backing from any one(in the situation where all the tribes are gathered) they would have no one to back them and intervene on their behalf if others jump in. If there's no ref in a basketball game, there's no one to stop people from fouling. That doesn't make it not against the rules.
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Apr 2, 2018 18:32
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And fouls in pickup games are self called. Where if someone takes advantage or exaggeraes the group as a whole can say gently caress off and ignore the call of a foul. Like lmao at someone calling poo poo like an offensive foul in a pickup game.
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Apr 2, 2018 19:12
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Dexo posted:And fouls in pickup games are self called. Where if someone takes advantage or exaggeraes the group as a whole can say gently caress off and ignore the call of a foul. So what you're saying is that the group can keep people honest to the rules, as happened at the ritual combat in Black Panther. The people on either side surrounding the combatants and holding each other off is the enforcement mechanism for the non-interference rule. The idea that it's just a free-for-all is absurd.
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Apr 2, 2018 19:27
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Or maybe the ritual combat is an allegory for political will. T’Challa’s populism defeated M’Baku’s conservatism. Killmonger pleaded a stronger case for revolutionary intervention but mismanagement caused his ouster in favor of the previous monarch. poo poo is not hard people
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Apr 2, 2018 20:49
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That's reasonable enough, but it's not an exclusive or. The ritual combat is a system that works by diegetic rules, which form an allegory. edit: If it makes no difference whether the circle of people around the ritual combat are enforcing an ancient tradition or merely in a Mexican standoff, at least one of the allegory or your reading of it is pretty lousy. Sir Kodiak fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Apr 2, 2018 |
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Apr 2, 2018 20:51
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Inescapable Duck posted:I think that while it's quite valid to bring up the bad, muddled and unfortunate politics and implications of the movie, it's still also worth acknowledging that marginalised people can take a positive message away from it regardless and accept that it might be a good thing in the long run. (if only because the bad stuff is something that everyone's exposed to anyway, it's nearly background noise in commercial art) The problem is that people are being purposely vague when they talk about how important the film is. If it's the idea that it will make people feel good, then yes, that's the explicit function of an exploitative film. Will it result in a better life for the people who made the film and their families? Certainly. But when people start talking about society level changes without a material basis, they lose me. In a less transient sense, what fades to the background in commercial consumption is what's important in an ideological critique. gohmak posted:I’d say it’s racism So are black people who criticize the movie self-hating blacks?
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Apr 2, 2018 21:52
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KVeezy3 posted:The problem is that people are being purposely vague when they talk about how important the film is. If it's the idea that it will make people feel good, then yes, that's the explicit function of an exploitative film. Will it result in a better life for the people who made the film and their families? Certainly. But when people start talking about society level changes without a material basis, they lose me. Depends if we are talking candidate Obama or president Obama.
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Apr 2, 2018 22:08
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gohmak posted:Depends if we are talking candidate Obama or president Obama. Please just stop.
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Apr 2, 2018 22:49
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It's still interesting how, in this increasingly long thread, there is relatively little actual praise for the movie itself. There's criticisms of the criticisms (well, the criticis themselves, really) assertions of the film's significance, but not a whole lot of 'no, you see, the film is good because of X'
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Apr 2, 2018 23:34
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Snowman_McK posted:It's still interesting how, in this increasingly long thread, there is relatively little actual praise for the movie itself. That's not actually interesting at all, people don't come to CineD to say "I liked it, it was good movie" and nothing else. Literally every thread that goes for more than 10 pages becomes about the discussion around the movie rather than the movie itself.
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Apr 3, 2018 03:30
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WampaLord posted:That's not actually interesting at all, people don't come to CineD to say "I liked it, it was good movie" and nothing else. Literally every thread that goes for more than 10 pages becomes about the discussion around the movie rather than the movie itself. 1) People absolutely do use the forum as twitter and just post ‘i liked it’. 2) “Actual praise for the movie itself” refers to specific praise of the film’s editing, cinematography, etc. There is effectively no praise of these things that make the movie distinct from, say, its official novelization.
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Apr 3, 2018 03:38
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There's been lots of praise for its design work, the prominence of its female leads (as well as the fact the cast isnt some shade of Beyonce pale), and the antagonist's complexity. Cant say much to its cinematography, fight choreography, or CGI quality though. Hell, I'll throw in the fact that the opening is N'jobu retelling Wakanda's mythology to Erik as being particularly inventive. Thats a clever touch. FilthyImp fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Apr 3, 2018 |
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Apr 3, 2018 03:46
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WampaLord posted:That's not actually interesting at all, people don't come to CineD to say "I liked it, it was good movie" and nothing else. Literally every thread that goes for more than 10 pages becomes about the discussion around the movie rather than the movie itself. People have said that. Lots of them. They haven't said why.
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Apr 3, 2018 03:57
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Killing the children of the oppressors’ is an obvious nonsense if approached with boneheaded literalism, because of course genocide of white Christian babies would be oppressive. But let’s presume for a moment that the oppressed peoples of the world are not utterly moronic Himmlers who will indulge in orgiastic slaughter once armed. Is Tony Stark’s ‘baby’ not Stark Industries itself? You're also verging on Killmonger fan fiction. EDIT: Somewhat related, the movie also borrows a lot structurally from The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises. There is a lot of similarity between Killmonger and Bane. Snowman_McK posted:People have said that. Lots of them. They haven't said why. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Apr 3, 2018 |
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Apr 3, 2018 04:27
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Timeless Appeal posted:Dude, you can literally click the first page and read people's reasons. Yes, SMG is right that there are a lot of generic twitter posts just saying the movie is good. But people have cited the soundtrack, sound design, well written female characters, the overall chemistry of the cast, the action scenes that did work, the nuanced villain, the production design, especially costuming. Never mind it's the most popular film of the year so far and like most people are well aware of the commonly cited merits. You're right, there are also cookie cutter compliments of the film's aesthetics as well as cookie cutter compliments of the film in general.
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Apr 3, 2018 04:34
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WampaLord posted:That's not actually interesting at all, people don't come to CineD to say "I liked it, it was good movie" and nothing else. Literally every thread that goes for more than 10 pages becomes about the discussion around the movie rather than the movie itself. I don't appreciate your cynical attitude towards CD, pal.
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