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xzzy posted:The sole upside to barrels is they use belts and you don't have to fuss with putting pipes underground just so you can walk around your factory. A 4 lane liquid bus made from underground pipes with petrol, water, lube, and acid is the way to go. Supply the bus from pumps connected directly to storage tanks and you should have plenty of throughput for an early-mid game factory. It's cheap and easy to set up and pretty flexible.
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Apr 6, 2018 17:26
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The way to do chemical layout is a liquid bus. Bus goes one direction with a row for oil, water, light/heavy/Petro acid and lube. Then you've got your refineries and assemblers come off the bus perpendicularly. This let's you add more whatever by just copying a block and duplicating it further down the bus. Works great until you scale beyond the throughout of a single pipe.
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Apr 6, 2018 17:42
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Main Paineframe posted:Lean heavily on the use of underground pipes - they don't autoconnect with anything adjacent like regular pipes do, so they're practically required for working with a lot of pipes in close proximity. They also are much better at throughput -- no matter the distance, an underground pipe only counts as a two pipe distance for determining flow.
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Apr 6, 2018 17:42
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The FFF that announced the barrel nerfs also listed some other benefits to them: the ability to have different kinds of liquid on the same belt, the ability to use things like splitters and filter inserters and bots to sort and organize your liquids, and so on. I just don't think those are often things that come up as being necessary, and any logistical effort saved by not having to deal with pipes is negated by the complexity of handling mixed lines like that in the first place, as well as the need to squeeze barreling and unbarreling centers everywhere. Barrels also allow you to more-or-less deploy flamethrower turrets from your inventory without the need for supply lines (just throw down a blueprint with an debarreling assembler and a couple solar panels, insert some barrels, enjoy fiery death anywhere), but again, that's niche and not really necessary.
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Apr 6, 2018 17:53
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concise posted:A 4 lane liquid bus made from underground pipes with petrol, water, lube, and acid is the way to go. Supply the bus from pumps connected directly to storage tanks and you should have plenty of throughput for an early-mid game factory. It's cheap and easy to set up and pretty flexible. Downside: you have to use pipes which are Not Fun(tm). Trains and belts are fun. 
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Apr 6, 2018 18:05
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i'm just doing the barrel setup on my already-won factory that i'm now expanding to have shitloads of trains. barrels are fun even if they're not super efficient or have a high throughput.
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Apr 6, 2018 18:12
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My latest 1kspm base used barrels extensively. I had one facility for oil processing, which took loaded fluid cars to a barreling facility. Trains for each bot-based science outpost then went to pick up cars full of lube/acid barrels, and dropped them into generic logistic stations. Each outpost had a train that returned empty barrels to the barreling facility (and another train from a mall outpost would bring more empty barrels when needed). Plastics were made onsite at the refinery and shipped out as plastic bars. Batteries were also made onsite, so there was never any need to export gas from the refinery. Solid fuel was handled at its own refinery outpost, bringing crude oil in and exporting only solid fuel (heavy->light, light->solid, and gas->solid). Later on added a U-235 input and had the outpost outputting solid, rocket, and nuclear fuel. But that was entirely pipe-based within itself. Should mention that the science outposts used only a couple 8-car trains of barrels every hour. My main reason for using barrels at those outposts was to make them entirely bot-based. Blue chips and electric engines use so little fluid overall that a single debarreler of each was enough to handle the fluid needs for 1kspm.
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Apr 6, 2018 18:52
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Bad Seafood posted:No more bottlenecks!  I'm so glad you're here.
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Apr 6, 2018 19:07
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so pipes totally suck huh. the amount of stuff produced by the refinery keeps getting totally unbalanced, so i had to resort to just dumping oil in a chest so i could keep my batteries going and sometimes randomly some fluids get stuck in the wrong pipe and i have to delete the whole connection to get it working again
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Apr 6, 2018 19:22
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Build more storage tanks. Make solid fuel (or does that require advanced processing?) Shut down your oil processing until you sort out your pipes.
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Apr 6, 2018 19:25
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No, pipes are awesome and the most efficient way to do stuff with fluids. They're just ugly and annoying to work with.
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Apr 6, 2018 19:25
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I build a mini refinery that is basically just enough to get me to advanced oil processing so I can use all the cracking recipes which lets you
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Apr 6, 2018 19:26
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Is the 100% efficient petroleum gas cracking ratio still something like 7 refineries : 10 light crackers : 1 heavy cracker? It's a good example of the "problem" with oil processing. There's a ton of new recipes, they're all pretty complex, there's a whole new level of logistics for fluids, and you're trying to set it up all at once because you really need blue science. I'm not saying it's a problem that needs to be fixed. It's just a bit overwhelming, even though I've done it a dozen times now.
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Apr 6, 2018 19:37
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Davincie posted:so pipes totally suck huh. the amount of stuff produced by the refinery keeps getting totally unbalanced, so i had to resort to just dumping oil in a chest so i could keep my batteries going and sometimes randomly some fluids get stuck in the wrong pipe and i have to delete the whole connection to get it working again Fluids in the wrong pipe 100% means your pipes are setup wrong and something is connected where it shouldn’t be. Screenshot? It can be done entirely with regular pipes if you’re crazy. But use underground pipes. You don’t need to do any weird balancing or rush for advanced processing for cracking. Heavy oil makes lube and what’s left makes solid fuel. Light oil makes solid fuel. And petroleum makes sulfur and plastic. Refineries are the weird building with multiple outputs, so if you don’t get all three products out then it will stop functioning until whichever full output is emptied.
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Apr 6, 2018 20:01
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Bad Seafood posted:No more bottlenecks! As the evegoons say,  xzzy posted:Oil processing always turns to poo poo because of the fixed input layout. Easily the worst part of the game for me. https://mods.factorio.com/mod/GDIW https://mods.factorio.com/mod/GDIWHotkey
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Apr 6, 2018 21:59
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A bit late to train chat, but I will never not pimp out the track blueprint books I found:neogeo0823 posted:I'm gonna pimp the rail books I found again, because they're seriously nice and include lights, power poles, they run parallel, they're available in 2 and 4 lane versions, and they overlap, making it nice and easy to modularly lay down sections quickly if you've got personal construction bots.
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Apr 7, 2018 01:22
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neogeo0823 posted:A bit late to train chat, but I will never not pimp out the track blueprint books I found: I use this book and love it.
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Apr 7, 2018 01:43
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Don't forget that blueprints are editable! Rightclick removes items from the print, and you can even just completely remove a single item. Like as taking all the wooden poles out of an old print, for instance. Definitely find out if you've already made trains if the blueprints you've picked up are meshing with your right/left hand drive though. "Why don't my trains work, I got these nice blueprints?" is always fun to diagnose with an errant signal or 200.
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Apr 7, 2018 02:12
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I use Grid Rails because I spent more than 300 hours in this game without ever using trains so I am only building simple networks for now. Might be easier for newer players than the full-on four lane madness. 
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Apr 7, 2018 02:16
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Even moderately large factories don't need four lanes. I don't understand it.
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Apr 7, 2018 02:48
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Wait, wouldn't crossing the tracks cripple one's train network? Why would you ever want to break the Left or Right Side Only rule?
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Apr 7, 2018 02:51
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:Wait, wouldn't crossing the tracks cripple one's train network? Why would you ever want to break the Left or Right Side Only rule? He's got 2 left and 2 right lanes. It's a 4-lane setup.
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Apr 7, 2018 02:53
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Alkydere posted:He's got 2 left and 2 right lanes. It's a 4-lane setup. Bingo. The two rightmost and leftmost lanes go in the same direction as each other. Personally, and as far as that blueprint book I linked goes, I like to use right hand drive rule for my trains. I also like single engine trains, simply because loops aren't very big, are easy to make, and having two way trains severely complicates things when you get more than maybe 2 trains running on a line.
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Apr 7, 2018 03:05
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Four lanes is perfect for city block designs. I'm never going back to two lanes.
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Apr 7, 2018 03:10
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I saw a handful of posts complaining about pipe spaghetti headaches so put together a super basic video of fluid handling tips, hopefully it is useful to someone? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk_UdBr5G8Y (yes I know my blueprint wasn't actually properly tile-able because I missed one pipe-to-ground)
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Apr 7, 2018 03:10
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neogeo0823 posted:Personally, and as far as that blueprint book I linked goes, I like to use right hand drive rule for my trains. I also like single engine trains, simply because loops aren't very big, are easy to make, and having two way trains severely complicates things when you get more than maybe 2 trains running on a line. Huh? I use two-locomotive trains, and have never experienced anything close to this level of complication, despite being a career RSO haver and thus a career train haver. A reliable T-junction blueprint has trivialized basically everything for me.
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Apr 7, 2018 03:12
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This is my go to plan for oil production. It produces everything you need from oil and it's tileable too. It also provides meters for the amount of each resources, water, oil, etc... and automatically produces solid fuel when you have overproduction. I haven't found another plan that is this good. https://factorioprints.com/view/-KoMuqtFuzvniatJuoa7 
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Apr 7, 2018 03:17
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Bhodi posted:Even moderately large factories don't need four lanes. I don't understand it. Heresy! Burn the heretic! But first build a facility that can burn thousands of heretics at once, in case we need the extra throughput later. Then burn the heretic!
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Apr 7, 2018 08:04
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Bhodi posted:Even moderately large factories don't need four lanes. I don't understand it. I was seeing noticeable throughput slowdowns from my trains crowding each other with only 20 trains on my last factory. 2 engines 4 cars each. I've been thinking about going to a 4 lane setup in my next factory to see if that would help with the crowding.
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Apr 7, 2018 08:13
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Go for 3 lanes and have the middle lane support either direction.
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Apr 7, 2018 10:50
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Those of you with 4 lane setups and giant refineries like the one posted - are you simply going for the "launch satellite" goal, or are you continuing playing post-launch to get the biggest industrial operation?
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Apr 7, 2018 12:13
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ymgve posted:Those of you with 4 lane setups and giant refineries like the one posted - are you simply going for the "launch satellite" goal, or are you continuing playing post-launch to get the biggest industrial operation? You can launch a single satellite without doing trains out all. The first few mining area expansions aren't that far away, especially in the base game. I didn't start running into slowdowns with 2 train lanes until about 60 hours and half a dozen rockets in. And even then 2 lanes works, it's just a little congested.
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Apr 7, 2018 13:21
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ymgve posted:Those of you with 4 lane setups and giant refineries like the one posted - are you simply going for the "launch satellite" goal, or are you continuing playing post-launch to get the biggest industrial operation? Once you've launched a rocket the next thing you can go for is more rockets per minute. Originally there was really no point to it but now you get white bottles to research the infinitely repeatable techs from launching satellites. Automating rockets after you've launched one is another challenge while going for crazy things like one rocket per minute is another one. Some of us just can't seem to stop launching rockets, you know?
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Apr 7, 2018 13:27
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xzzy posted:Oil processing always turns to poo poo because of the fixed input layout. Easily the worst part of the game for me. It's something they should really fix in the main game. Just let us put liquids in any liquid input we like. I don't have to put specific items in specific spots when I'm using inserters, so why do I need to do it for liquids?
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Apr 7, 2018 13:37
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One launch...per minute... 
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Apr 7, 2018 14:26
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ymgve posted:One launch...per minute... The factory must expand to meet the needs of the expanding factory!
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Apr 7, 2018 14:48
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ymgve posted:One launch...per minute... Best I did was...I think one rocket per ten minutes or so. A bit less, I think; the automation for that wasn't very good. Ended up drowning in white bottles anyway. I started playing again and I think my goal is going to be one rocket per minute to start and then go up from there. I think people have gotten over ten rockets per minute. Or gotten there, at least. GenericOverusedName posted:The factory must expand to meet the needs of the expanding factory! This. Whatever it is you need more of it. If you have extra of it you need to consume more of it. So more rockets means more white bottles. An excess of white bottles means you aren't producing the other colors enough. Infinite research doesn't develop itself, you know.
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Apr 7, 2018 15:06
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LLSix posted:I was seeing noticeable throughput slowdowns from my trains crowding each other with only 20 trains on my last factory. 2 engines 4 cars each. I've been thinking about going to a 4 lane setup in my next factory to see if that would help with the crowding. If you are getting slowdowns with relatively small numbers of trains you are probably using really inefficient signaling. 4 way 2 lane intersection can have throughput from go from 25ish trains a minute to 95ish if you use a more optimal design. This thread on the official forums has done a lot of testing and has numbers for a lot of different designs.
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Apr 7, 2018 15:58
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LtSmash posted:This thread on the official forums has done a lot of testing and has numbers for a lot of different designs. Pro-click  "No Gods" interchange
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Apr 7, 2018 16:36
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GenericOverusedName posted:The factory must expand to meet the needs of the expanding factory! Thread title material imo
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Apr 7, 2018 16:42
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