Oldie Programming: Career Advice, Questions, Change of Directions

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Jaded Burnout: Jul 10, 2004

raminasi posted:

It�s really wild that a greenfield project with a supposed open mandate to use any new tech ended up going forward with node. I know it�s not your decision, but goddamn.

I could see it a few years ago, maybe this manager is a bit behind the times.

# ? Apr 12, 2018 20:36

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# ? Apr 18, 2024 18:22

redleader: Aug 18, 2005; Engage according to operational parameters

strange posted:

This is what ended up happening. It turns out when my boss said "any tech", he really meant "use node". One upside is the local jobmarket loves Node for some reason!!!!!!!

Guess you're using C# then!

# ? Apr 12, 2018 21:49

spiritual bypass: Feb 19, 2008; Grimey Drawer

If the boss really wants Node, do it in Bucklescript/Reason for spite

# ? Apr 12, 2018 22:59

The Leck: Feb 27, 2001

raminasi posted:

It’s really wild that a greenfield project with a supposed open mandate to use any new tech ended up going forward with node. I know it’s not your decision, but goddamn.

I don�t know, I have some coworkers who are REALLY excited about using node for a new project to get away from all this gross C# and SQL nonsense. We just agree to disagree.

# ? Apr 13, 2018 01:30

Horse Clocks: Dec 14, 2004

strange posted:

This is what ended up happening. It turns out when my boss said "any tech", he really meant "use node". One upside is the local jobmarket loves Node for some reason!!!!!!!

Node is just the runtime, not the language. You�ve still got a chance to save yourself. :v:

# ? Apr 13, 2018 01:38

BurntCornMuffin: Jan 9, 2009

Horse Clocks posted:

Node is just the runtime, not the language. You’ve still got a chance to save yourself.

No you don't. Somebody will just see it as an invitation to wrap Node, Hadoop, and some random startup's product with Perl scripts invoked by Spring on the JVM. And some C level at a fortune 500, probably a future client of mine, will be dumb enough to buy it.

# ? Apr 13, 2018 02:05

Shirec: Jul 29, 2009; How to cock it up, Fig. I

Sorry to interrupt but what's so bad about Node? That's currently the back end language I'm most familiar with (6 months experience so I probably shouldn't be posting here haha), but I was really curious.

# ? Apr 13, 2018 02:15

TooMuchAbstraction: Oct 14, 2012; I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.; Fun Shoe

I've never used Node, but I assume most of the backlash is from people that think that Javascript is the worst language in common use today, so why on earth would you use it anywhere you don't absolutely have to?

# ? Apr 13, 2018 02:20

mrmcd: Feb 22, 2003; Pictured: The only good cop (a fictional one).

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

I've never used Node, but I assume most of the backlash is from people that think that Javascript is the worst language in common use today, so why on earth would you use it anywhere you don't absolutely have to?

There's also the constant npm clusterfuck. And the fact the project was so badly managed it forked for like a year.

# ? Apr 13, 2018 02:31

Volguus: Mar 3, 2009

Javascript on the server. :shudder:

# ? Apr 13, 2018 03:06

TheCog: Jul 30, 2012; I AM ZEPA AND I CLAIM THESE LANDS BY RIGHT OF CONQUEST

Javascript with typescript is just fine.

I get that its cool to hate on it, but despite its idiosyncrasies, which every language has, javascript is a totally fine language to develop in.

I usually find that a lot of the hate for javascript comes from people who had to work in it on the frontend a decade ago, which leaves them with some unfair biases.

# ? Apr 13, 2018 04:53

Bruegels Fuckbooks: Sep 14, 2004; Now, listen - I know the two of you are very different from each other in a lot of ways, but you have to understand that as far as Grandpa's concerned, you're both pieces of shit! Yeah. I can prove it mathematically.

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

I've never used Node, but I assume most of the backlash is from people that think that Javascript is the worst language in common use today, so why on earth would you use it anywhere you don't absolutely have to?

i think it's more:
a) the website is filled with obvious lies that even a child could see through about performance
b) gently caress npm
c) all the typescript tooling is done using node. apparently a quad xeon and an ssd isn't good enough to do intellisense in real time nowadays.

# ? Apr 13, 2018 06:47

Doctor w-rw-rw-: Jun 24, 2008

rt4 posted:

If the boss really wants Node, do it in Bucklescript/Reason for spite

this but unironically

# ? Apr 13, 2018 08:11

comedyblissoption: Mar 15, 2006

Linted javascript is an ok dynamically typed language.

The problem is that dynamically typed languages are bad ityool 2018.

Maybe typescript is okay but I don't have experience with it.

# ? Apr 13, 2018 11:28

Naar: Aug 19, 2003; The Time of the Eye is now; Fun Shoe

comedyblissoption posted:

The problem is that dynamically typed languages are bad ityool 2018.

Perhaps, if you think that set only contains JavaScript.

# ? Apr 13, 2018 11:36

mrmcd: Feb 22, 2003; Pictured: The only good cop (a fictional one).

comedyblissoption posted:

dynamically typed languages are bad

# ? Apr 13, 2018 12:39

Jose Valasquez: Apr 8, 2005

Naar posted:

Perhaps, if you think that set only contains JavaScript.

Python is bad too

# ? Apr 13, 2018 12:40

Naar: Aug 19, 2003; The Time of the Eye is now; Fun Shoe

Jose Valasquez posted:

Python is bad too

Clojure's good, though.

# ? Apr 13, 2018 13:50

Munkeymon: Aug 14, 2003; Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.

comedyblissoption posted:

dynamically typed languages

Based on responses to my JS derail from the other week in the horrors thread that leaves you with Rust and Go, IIRC. Rust seems nice.

# ? Apr 13, 2018 14:21

ultrafilter: Aug 23, 2007; It's okay if you have any questions.

comedyblissoption posted:

languages are bad

# ? Apr 13, 2018 14:59

Good Will Hrunting: Oct 8, 2012; I changed my mind.
I'm not sorry.

Yeah I mean I'm still a very new programmer so I'd love if someone said "X is bad because Y" so I can Google it and read up about it instead of having to say "hmm why is this so bad let me Google ${language} + bad" and getting a million fluff thinkpieces on Medium about it. Help a young'n learn!

# ? Apr 13, 2018 15:19

Jose Valasquez: Apr 8, 2005

Good Will Hrunting posted:

Yeah I mean I'm still a very new programmer so I'd love if someone said "X is bad because Y" so I can Google it and read up about it instead of having to say "hmm why is this so bad let me Google ${language} + bad" and getting a million fluff thinkpieces on Medium about it. Help a young'n learn!

Python is bad because syntactic whitespace and executable typos.

# ? Apr 13, 2018 15:22

Naar: Aug 19, 2003; The Time of the Eye is now; Fun Shoe

It's a bit hard to put into words. I suppose the closest I can say is that Python has too much magic and its documentation tends to be frequently terrible. Also, its creator hates functional programming for some reason.

# ? Apr 13, 2018 15:38

Shirec: Jul 29, 2009; How to cock it up, Fig. I

The conclusion I�ve drawn is that all languages are bad in one way or another.

Any thoughts on my plan to learn Java or should I switch to something else?

# ? Apr 13, 2018 15:44

BurntCornMuffin: Jan 9, 2009

Shirec posted:

The conclusion I’ve drawn is that all languages are bad in one way or another.

Any thoughts on my plan to learn Java or should I switch to something else?

What's your motivation? What do you plan to work on in the near future?

# ? Apr 13, 2018 15:48

Shirec: Jul 29, 2009; How to cock it up, Fig. I

BurntCornMuffin posted:

What's your motivation? What do you plan to work on in the near future?

I'm really really new to programming so basically just padding out my skill set. My current plan is React, Python, and Java. I ultimately want to transition from web developer to software engineer. I'd like to keep a level of flexibility though so I don't get locked in. This may all sound wildly naive though, I am but a child in the woods.

# ? Apr 13, 2018 15:52

Naar: Aug 19, 2003; The Time of the Eye is now; Fun Shoe

Shirec posted:

The conclusion I�ve drawn is that all languages are bad in one way or another.

Any thoughts on my plan to learn Java or should I switch to something else?

A good conclusion. For me, anyway, all languages have their annoying bits, but there are some that are worse than others due to annoying syntax/poor libraries/irritating community/terrible curse. Still, if someone wanted to pay me enough money, I'd do Fortran or Cobol or whatever. Mostly, I think how much you enjoy a job has a lot more to do with your colleagues and the general atmosphere of the company. Java is worth knowing if you want 'a generic enterprise-y language which you will probably be able to get a job using'.

# ? Apr 13, 2018 15:55

TooMuchAbstraction: Oct 14, 2012; I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.; Fun Shoe

Jose Valasquez posted:

Python is bad because syntactic whitespace and executable typos.

Syntactic whitespace is a subjective thing that a lot of people have strong opinions about on both sides. I'm curious what you mean about "executable typos" though.

For me, the only really big complaint I have about Python is its odd scoping rules: it has module and function scope, and literally nothing else unless you manually encapsulate your variable within some object. Variables declared in a for loop or if statement persist outside of their scope, but only if that scope executed! For example:

code:

import time
def foo():
  if int(time.time()) % 2:
    a = 1
  print a

Every other second, this function will work! And the rest of the time it'll give you an UnboundLocalError. That's nuts.

Otherwise, I'd be happy if it had stricter rules about truthiness, which amounts to saying "I want strict typing in this situation". I'm happier to say "if foo == 0" rather than "if foo", especially when foo may be None and I want to check if it's been set, not if it has a nonzero value.

Python's a dynamically-typed language with all that entails, and it has really good expressiveness/readability. It's far from a perfect language, but there's good reasons why it's so popular, and unlike with Javascript, those reasons don't include "because I didn't have any other choice."

# ? Apr 13, 2018 16:03

Jaded Burnout: Jul 10, 2004

Shirec posted:

This may all sound wildly naive though, I am but a child in the woods.

A little bit maybe, but I would say those are not bad choices to explore. People (including myself) put a lot of emphasis on people knowing their language when hiring whether valid or not. But if you've very junior then places have gotta be expecting to train you anyway.

Having a ground-level understanding of a bunch of languages and frameworks would probably be a good thing at your level.

Might wanna take a look at Seven Languages in Seven Weeks, I found it quite good for covering ground.

# ? Apr 13, 2018 16:07

BurntCornMuffin: Jan 9, 2009

Shirec posted:

I'm really really new to programming so basically just padding out my skill set. My current plan is React, Python, and Java. I ultimately want to transition from web developer to software engineer. I'd like to keep a level of flexibility though so I don't get locked in. This may all sound wildly naive though, I am but a child in the woods.

It's not a bad plan, then. However, if you really want to have a deeper level understanding that "Engineer" implies, as you get comfortable with Java, follow that act with some C, then take some of those C projects and run them through an assembly debugger so you can see what's happening underneath all the comfortable abstractions.

# ? Apr 13, 2018 16:08

Naar: Aug 19, 2003; The Time of the Eye is now; Fun Shoe

BurntCornMuffin posted:

It's not a bad plan, then. However, if you really want to have a deeper level understanding that "Engineer" implies, as you get comfortable with Java, follow that act with some C, then take some of those C projects and run them through an assembly debugger so you can see what's happening underneath all the comfortable abstractions.

I don't think this is necessarily good advice. The last time I did assembly/C was in university and I have literally never needed it.

# ? Apr 13, 2018 16:10

raminasi: Jan 25, 2005; a last drink with no ice

My comment was intended to be less �node sucks� and more �node is boring.� :shobon:

�Use whatever you want!� is so rare at an Actual Job that it�s worth taking advantage of as much as possible.

(Node might suck, I don�t know, I�ve just never used it.)

# ? Apr 13, 2018 16:19

BurntCornMuffin: Jan 9, 2009

Naar posted:

I don't think this is necessarily good advice. The last time I did assembly/C was in university and I have literally never needed it.

A device driver developer or embedded developer would need it, as would people getting into malware research or anything with that level of crunch. It may not ever be relevant to most devs, since the abstractions are valuable for sanity/productivity, but if learning how computers do things is the goal, then it's very much how computers loving do things.

# ? Apr 13, 2018 18:41

comedyblissoption: Mar 15, 2006

Naar posted:

Clojure's good, though.

I haven't used clojure, but I wrote some tiny programs in Common Lisp. I had the exact same type issues I had as with javascript programs. This was at a time when I thought dynamically typed languages were okay. Lisps are probably bad ityool 2018 specifically because they are dynamically typed. Gradual typing isn't sufficient.

# ? Apr 13, 2018 19:07

Jose Valasquez: Apr 8, 2005

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

Syntactic whitespace is a subjective thing that a lot of people have strong opinions about on both sides. I'm curious what you mean about "executable typos" though.

code:

foobar = 1
if foodbar == 1
 do_something()

# ? Apr 13, 2018 19:17

TooMuchAbstraction: Oct 14, 2012; I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.; Fun Shoe

Jose Valasquez posted:

code:

foobar = 1
if foodbar == 1
 do_something()

If you have two very similarly-named symbols in the same scope, you'll have that problem in any language. In Python, if "foodbar" didn't exist before the if statement, then you'd get an UnboundLocalError or similar exception at runtime. A more realistic complaint would be something like

code:

foobar = 1
if some_conditional:
  foodbar = 2

which is perfectly legal and will result in two symbols existing whenever some_conditional is true.

I guess your complaint could be better-written as "I want explicit declarations for variables" instead of variables being implicitly created the first time they are assigned to. In which case, so do I, buddy.

# ? Apr 13, 2018 19:25

Xarn: Jun 26, 2015

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

I guess your complaint could be better-written as "I want explicit declarations for variables" instead of variables being implicitly created the first time they are assigned to. In which case, so do I, buddy.

Who doesn't, really.

# ? Apr 13, 2018 19:31

Good Will Hrunting: Oct 8, 2012; I changed my mind.
I'm not sorry.

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

A more realistic complaint would be something like
code:
foobar = 1
if some_conditional:
  foodbar = 2
which is perfectly legal and will result in two symbols existing whenever some_conditional is true.

Holy poo poo lol are there linters to handle this or something? Or do you have to actually execute this code (or in this case, execute the bug in a state which will cause that to be reached and then access it again, incorrectly I guess)?

# ? Apr 13, 2018 19:47

Jaded Burnout: Jul 10, 2004

Good Will Hrunting posted:

Holy poo poo lol are there linters to handle this or something? Or do you have to actually execute this code (or in this case, execute the bug in a state which will cause that to be reached and then access it again, incorrectly I guess)?

Codeclimate picks up this sort of thing in Ruby, I'm guessing Python too.

# ? Apr 13, 2018 19:56

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# ? Apr 18, 2024 18:22

spiritual bypass: Feb 19, 2008; Grimey Drawer

Any language that doesn't have interfaces is bad

# ? Apr 13, 2018 20:35

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > The Cavern of COBOL > Oldie Programming: Career Advice, Questions, Change of Directions

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