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So are we swinging back around from Contra reaching out to the Right is bad to being okay now, or???
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Apr 18, 2018 19:12
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business hammocks posted:Does movie bob believe he is not part of the working class? That might be more delusional than thinking he would escape the ovens if all people with a low IQ were liquidated by a benevolent dictator technocrat, as he believes must happen. I think it mostly comes from a fundamental disconnect over what constitutes "working class." American political discourse treats it as "anyone who works for a living" and people making up to absurd numbers like 300K, and people like Zinnia Jones consider "the WWC" to be a dogwhistle for Mark Lilla style focusing on Trump voters and dropping minority civil rights planks. To leftists who are using "working class" as an actual Marxist analytical term, this perspective is alien, but then they fall into the trap of defending the "white working class" as some kind of distinct entity rather than the working class as a general group. It's largely a bunch of people talking past each other and using different working definitions for different terms, really. I think a lot of Euros also jump into the fray without realizing or caring about the race politics inherent to the discussion in American history. Bob is just a lovely libertarian who has moved left on social issues though, and I think he just is being a shitter about it. Edit: it's also a matter of cultural posturing, tbh. Bob sees himself unironically as part of the multicultural liberal coastal values right-wingers bitch about and everything not on the coasts as a backward-looking land full exclusively of people who hate minorities and "progress," whatever he defines that to mean. Lightning Knight fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Apr 18, 2018 |
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Apr 18, 2018 19:13
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MariusLecter posted:So are we swinging back around from Contra reaching out to the Right is bad to being okay now, or??? Communication is always going to be an ideal alternative to violence. Unless they're nazis, in which case they should be punched. But you'd be surprised at how many people you can actually have a conversation with despite having differing political opinions. Alt Right are not unreachable, and anyone who can be turned away from their awful poo poo should be encouraged to do so. The full blown Neo Nazis don't deserve that unless they make the choice to leave for themselves, but other people who are right wing can still be decent humans. It's not a zero sum game as much as Bob wants it to be. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Apr 18, 2018 |
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Apr 18, 2018 19:14
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MariusLecter posted:So are we swinging back around from Contra reaching out to the Right is bad to being okay now, or??? I'm not sure what you think was going on there, but 'reaching out to the right' definitely wasn't it.
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Apr 18, 2018 19:14
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ACES CURE PLANES posted:I'm not sure what you think was going on there, but 'reaching out to the right' definitely wasn't it. Yeah that's a pretty bizarre characterization of Contra's work, unless you consider semi-sincere mock videos of people like Armored Skeptic to be "reaching out" I suppose.
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Apr 18, 2018 19:16
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Kim Justice posted:Meanwhile, in news of older creators who actually move with the times, AVGN joins an ever-growing list of creators who are releasing on Amazon Prime Video before YouTube with the first episode of his new season (it's Earthbound, and at 39 mins it's one of his longest in ages): And because Amazon gonna Amazone, anyone outside of 2 countries can't watch and Am is a little pos that blocks VPNs  What's the loving point of paying for prime in your home country lately.
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Apr 18, 2018 19:17
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MariusLecter posted:So are we swinging back around from Contra reaching out to the Right is bad to being okay now, or??? What Contra did was never good.
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Apr 18, 2018 19:20
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Lightning Knight posted:Yeah that's a pretty bizarre characterization of Contra's work, unless you consider semi-sincere mock videos of people like Armored Skeptic to be "reaching out" I suppose. That's not what I was saying. I'm saying that choosing to have "reasonable public debates" with nazis is not reaching out, it's enabling and granting legitimacy to those viewpoints as if they were reasonable beliefs that could be held and are therefore deserving of a public platform.
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Apr 18, 2018 19:22
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Arcsquad12 posted:Communication is always going to be an ideal alternative to violence. Unless they're nazis, in which case they should be punched. But you'd be surprised at how many people you can actually have a conversation with despite having differing political opinions. Alt Right are not unreachable, and anyone who can be turned away from their awful poo poo should be encouraged to do so. The full blown Neo Nazis don't deserve that unless they make the choice to leave for themselves, but other people who are right wing can still be decent humans. I don't think this delineation really flies to be honest, at least if you're talking about internet discourse. There's no meaningful daylight between people like Roosh V's crowd or the Proud Boys and the alt-right (aka internet nazis). Fuckin' Jordan Peterson bitches about "cultural marxism," aka literal Nazi propaganda, the whole right has quickly lurched towards (crypto-)fascism at an alarming rate and most of them aren't actually reachable unless you're really dedicated and personally invested. Asking people to offer that kind of effort for strangers on the internet isn't reasonable imo. The real problem is conflating "everyone who lives in the Midwest and South" for "Trump supporters," when there's millions of white people who just didn't vote (not to mention, you know, black people?).
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Apr 18, 2018 19:22
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Is "Contra" Contrapoints? What's being talked about here?
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Apr 18, 2018 19:22
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CharlestheHammer posted:What Contra did was never good. Shots fired, goddamn. How does it feel to be so wrong? ACES CURE PLANES posted:That's not what I was saying. I'm saying that choosing to have "reasonable public debates" with nazis is not reaching out, it's enabling and granting legitimacy to those viewpoints as if they were reasonable beliefs that could be held and are therefore deserving of a public platform. I'm not sure I follow you then. Are you arguing Contra is bad for giving them a platform? How did she do that?
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Apr 18, 2018 19:23
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StealthArcher posted:And because Amazon gonna Amazone, anyone outside of 2 countries can't watch and Am is a little pos that blocks VPNs At least it's saving me money, because AVGN would have been the only reason to occasionally buy an episode. Amazon, good at delivering goods to your doorstep, bad at everything else
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Apr 18, 2018 19:28
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Lightning Knight posted:I'm not sure I follow you then. Are you arguing Contra is bad for giving them a platform? How did she do that? I don't know how to put it more simply than I already did. Giving them a public platform for debate enables them, and acts like the views have some sort of legitimacy. Alternatively: https://twitter.com/ADAMATOMIC/status/942850377153642496 Just replace eugenics with nazi beliefs.
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Apr 18, 2018 19:30
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Lightning Knight posted:Shots fired, goddamn. How does it feel to be so wrong? I’m not sure, I don’t think I’ve ever been that. You can tweet at Contra for an answer tho.
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Apr 18, 2018 19:31
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ACES CURE PLANES posted:I don't know how to put it more simply than I already did. Giving them a public platform for debate enables them, and acts like the views have some sort of legitimacy. Ah. Well, I suppose I don't really disagree, but I also don't really think it's fair to characterize Contra as "seriously" engaging with them. She mostly posts mock videos and explanations of why things like fascism are garbage, and she's also improved with time. A lot of her work was also done before Nazis were literally marching in the streets, too. CharlestheHammer posted:You can tweet at Contra for an answer tho. An answer to what?
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Apr 18, 2018 19:34
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Lightning Knight posted:Ah. Well, I suppose I don't really disagree, but I also don't really think it's fair to characterize Contra as "seriously" engaging with them. She mostly posts mock videos and explanations of why things like fascism are garbage, and she's also improved with time. A lot of her work was also done before Nazis were literally marching in the streets, too. I don't follow Contra so somebody can probably go more in depth but a little while back she went on a debate with some alt-righters and gave an interview to that one terfy guy whose name I don't remember and a lot of people were upset about her giving them an air of legitimacy.
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Apr 18, 2018 19:39
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Garrand posted:I don't follow Contra so somebody can probably go more in depth but a little while back she went on a debate with some alt-righters and gave an interview to that one terfy guy whose name I don't remember and a lot of people were upset about her giving them an air of legitimacy. Oh poo poo I forgot she does podcasts and stuff I don't follow. Yeah that's kind of lame, at least the alt-right part. If she, as a trans person, wants to debate TERFs, I think that's her decision, tbh, however.
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Apr 18, 2018 19:41
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Contra engaging in debate with alt right figures for a time (something she gave up) did get a lot of ire for giving them a platform. The thing is that she uhh... didn't. She engaged them in their spaces, on their streams, where it was their fans watching, some more reachable than others, in order to reach those people. It always seemed way more like they were giving her a platform than the other way around. E: I forgot about the terf journalist guy but I do think she changed her stance in the time since then.
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Apr 18, 2018 19:43
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Lightning Knight posted:Ah. Well, I suppose I don't really disagree, but I also don't really think it's fair to characterize Contra as "seriously" engaging with them. She mostly posts mock videos and explanations of why things like fascism are garbage, and she's also improved with time. A lot of her work was also done before Nazis were literally marching in the streets, too. I mean, like, take something like this: https://twitter.com/ContraPoints/status/956254578659549186 And compare it to articles like this: https://twitter.com/commietantric/status/808393055506231298 And tell me where you find the mocking or even any difference?
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Apr 18, 2018 19:43
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there is absolutely no point in trying to reach out to the alt-right. they are not the people who can be won over to the left. the disenfranchised who sit out elections entirely because they are (rightly) convinced that the system is broken are the people worth talking to, not the group that looks up to pieces of human garbage like milo yiannapoulos and elected a meme as president.
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Apr 18, 2018 19:46
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ACES CURE PLANES posted:I mean, like, take something like this: The core difference between Contra and the NYT is that Contra is open about her political biases and is known as a poo poo-stirrer who presents left-of-center views. The NYT presents themselves as the "unbiased paper of record" and presents Nazis in a "both sides are equal" narrative. Also her observation about alt-righters thinking of it all as just a game and putting on an act is apt, and speaks to the reality that most of these people are pathetic Nazi larpers who would scurry back into their holes after one good sock to the face. See: Spencer, Richard.
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Apr 18, 2018 19:46
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Lightning Knight posted:Oh poo poo I forgot she does podcasts and stuff I don't follow. The interview wasn't actually a debate just them talking about her coming out as trans and stuff and it was very positive but people were upset with her doing the interview because he has made a number of anti-trans remarks in the past and feel that it was making him seem better and not terfy or something. Like I said, I don't follow Contra so this is basically whatever came into my twitter feed through various sources but that's the gist I've gotten out of it. Trojan Kaiju posted:Contra engaging in debate with alt right figures for a time (something she gave up) did get a lot of ire for giving them a platform. The thing is that she uhh... didn't. She engaged them in their spaces, on their streams, where it was their fans watching, some more reachable than others, in order to reach those people. It always seemed way more like they were giving her a platform than the other way around. That's probably the biggest part of the issue here. While debating with nazi's and the alt righters gives them a feeling of legitimacy they don't deserve they also often have thousands of viewers, some of whom may not be as indoctrinated in their awful ways and might be able to step back and really look at the awful things they're saying and how they actually effect real people.
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Apr 18, 2018 19:48
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Lightning Knight posted:I don't think this delineation really flies to be honest, at least if you're talking about internet discourse. There's no meaningful daylight between people like Roosh V's crowd or the Proud Boys and the alt-right (aka internet nazis). Fuckin' Jordan Peterson bitches about "cultural marxism," aka literal Nazi propaganda, the whole right has quickly lurched towards (crypto-)fascism at an alarming rate and most of them aren't actually reachable unless you're really dedicated and personally invested. Asking people to offer that kind of effort for strangers on the internet isn't reasonable imo. I guess I should make the distinction that my anecdotal experience with this situation has been conversations in person. Text is a horrible way to convey intent without being blatantly obvious. Before I moved from home, my local riding in Ontario was and still is the most hardline conservative stronghold in the province. The kind of stuff I see people from home post on facebook is rather disgusting, but when I speak to them in person I can and have been able to convince them they're being idiots. I don't bother trying to engage with sycophants online on facebook because I like my sanity, but the simple act of talking to someone and showing them that there is an opinion outside of their own can work more often than not. Unless those people are neo nazis or Jordan Peterson, in which case gently caress them. EDIT: Also, I'm Canadian, so barring exceptions like JBP and our rampant abuse of first nations people, our politics aren't nearly as supercharged with hatred and factionalism as the USA. It's definitely bad, but in the kind of mediocrity that Canadians pass off as politeness. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Apr 18, 2018 |
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Apr 18, 2018 19:49
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Has Contra done something for her to be brought up? MovieBob is a complete arsehole. Zinnia Jones is also a complete arsehole. Shaun is cool  As far as "engaging TERFs" go...well, here in the UK the line from folks who are at the top of the trans community in the UK has been to try and not engage with TERFs as much as possible. This has really helped out tons because now TERFs have seriously infected the Labour Party as well as having a significant presence in press outlets like The Times, so I dunno - maybe more engagement would have been good to have a counter to their retrograde views? It really doesn't work to just stick your head in the sand and think that "Oh all this is just going to go away" EDIT: Also, I dunno...how big is the alt-right right now? Like, I don't really know. It felt like that awful night in Charlottesville was their high watermark, back when Steve Bannon was still riding high in the White House. Then he fell out of favour, got scurried the gently caress out of there and we're right back to typical Republican neoconservatism. You see pictures tweeted of Richard Spencer giving talks where the audience is of about a dozen people in which half are guaranteed to be there to document/hatewatch him, other reports of groups falling into and eating themselves, and the "discourse/debate" scene on YouTube and the like has degenerated into "Internet bloodsports" which is nothing but shoutfests and reading out superchats in a style that's basically seven levels down from Jerry Springer. Alex Jones is now shouting and screaming at Trump on Infowars...like, what's the actual state of play for them in 2018? It doesn't look good from where I'm standing (which admittedly is over an ocean). Kim Justice fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Apr 18, 2018 |
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Apr 18, 2018 19:52
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DEEP STATE PLOT posted:there is absolutely no point in trying to reach out to the alt-right. they are not the people who can be won over to the left. the disenfranchised who sit out elections entirely because they are (rightly) convinced that the system is broken are the people worth talking to, not the group that looks up to pieces of human garbage like milo yiannapoulos and elected a meme as president. I disagree with this. While the people closest to these youtubers and the strongest advocates for the alt-right will never change their mind their viewers aren't all so convinced. Yes, we aren't going to change the minds of the people who went to the march in Charlotte but most of these people didn't. Most of them just want to hear someone talk about how they really are the victim and find sympathetic voices. I don't believe they are unreachable.
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Apr 18, 2018 19:53
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Garrand posted:Most of them just want to hear someone talk about how they really are the victim and find sympathetic voices. I don't believe they are unreachable. Despite efforts to always offload these things onto "Rednecks" and other barely coded "THE POOORS!" analogs, most of the Kim Justice posted:Maybe more engagement would have been good to have a counter to their retrograde views? It wouldn't have, you don't ignore them, you actively shut them out. Yardbomb fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Apr 18, 2018 |
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Apr 18, 2018 19:56
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Garrand posted:The interview wasn't actually a debate just them talking about her coming out as trans and stuff and it was very positive but people were upset with her doing the interview because he has made a number of anti-trans remarks in the past and feel that it was making him seem better and not terfy or something. Like I said, I don't follow Contra so this is basically whatever came into my twitter feed through various sources but that's the gist I've gotten out of it. See, if it was his podcast and not hers, I think that her just being there and presenting a positive portrayal of trans people is a win, imo. Arcsquad12 posted:I guess I should make the distinction that my anecdotal experience with this situation has been conversations in person. Text is a horrible way to convey intent without being blatantly obvious. Before I moved from home, my local riding in Ontario was and still is the most hardline conservative stronghold in the province. The kind of stuff I see people from home post on facebook is rather disgusting, but when I speak to them in person I can and have been able to convince them they're being idiots. I don't bother trying to engage with sycophants online on facebook because I like my sanity, but the simple act of talking to someone and showing them that there is an opinion outside of their own can work more often than not. I think the thing to realize is that the kind of people you're likely to reach are the people who are actually worse off, i.e. below the median wage. The upper middle class white suburbanites who think that they're losing out because they saw an Asian family move into the house across the street are a lost cause, and they're demographically speaking the main source of Trump support.
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Apr 18, 2018 19:56
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Lightning Knight posted:See, if it was his podcast and not hers, I think that her just being there and presenting a positive portrayal of trans people is a win, imo. It was actually an article that he wrote for whatever thing he works for but yeah. Yardbomb posted:Despite efforts to always offload these things onto "Rednecks" and other barely coded "THE POOORS!" analogs, most of the Everybody's got problems.
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Apr 18, 2018 19:59
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ACES CURE PLANES posted:I mean, like, take something like this: This is just disingenuous - Contra's entire thread was trying to illustrate how so many of these alt-right personalities don't actually have an ideology and instead see themselves like performative pro wrestlers, and are utterly baffled that people on the left actually believe what they preach. It was not another thinkpiece from the NYT about "nazis go shopping for line caught ahi tuna sometimes too".
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Apr 18, 2018 20:01
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Yardbomb posted:It wouldn't have, you don't ignore them, you actively shut them out. Trouble is shutting them out isn't what we did here in the UK, we ignored them. It's hard to shut them out now when they're climbing up the walls. :\
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Apr 18, 2018 20:02
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Lightning Knight posted:The upper middle class white suburbanites who think that they're losing out because they saw an Asian family move into the house across the street are a lost cause, and they're demographically speaking the main source of Trump support. This is the key, it's this exact kind of person that is the lost cause. There's a narrative being pushed by establishment democrats (IE, ever so slightly left of the conservatives but still globally very right wing), that all Trump voters are poor, ignorant rednecks, instead of people being taken for a ride by a con man, and therefore they have a moral standing by which they can abandon poor communities. You can win people over, but you're not going to do it by appealing to the middle class white demographic, who are the ones who would pay attention to these sorts of online debate things, you need to actually reach out to actual people who aren't caught up in the alt right cult. But to do that we might have to have some comprehensive socioeconomic reform that takes away from the wealthy and helps elevate the impoverished and boy howdy we just can't have that, both parties will fight tooth and nail to never see that happen.
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Apr 18, 2018 20:03
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Pirate Jenny posted:This is just disingenuous - Contra's entire thread was trying to illustrate how so many of these alt-right personalities don't actually have an ideology and instead see themselves like performative pro wrestlers, and are utterly baffled that people on the left actually believe what they preach. It was not another thinkpiece from the NYT about "nazis go shopping for line caught ahi tuna sometimes too". That’s.....dumber. Turns out I gave her to much credit.
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Apr 18, 2018 20:04
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ACES CURE PLANES posted:This is the key, it's this exact kind of person that is the lost cause. There's a narrative being pushed by establishment democrats (IE, ever so slightly left of the conservatives but still globally very right wing), that all Trump voters are poor, ignorant rednecks, instead of people being taken for a ride by a con man, and therefore they have a moral standing by which they can abandon poor communities. I agree with this. I think the core disconnect really is that you have people who essentially buy into the framing that Trump supporters are "working class" either from not knowing the demographic reality or from simply having a bad working definition of what constitutes "working class." There's a ton of performative posturing on the issue from people on all parts of the political spectrum and the waters are really muddied, and it almost always devolves into a stupid battle over "identity politics" because nitwits buy into conservative framing. ^ lol you're really mad about Contra, huh?
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Apr 18, 2018 20:06
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CharlestheHammer posted:That’s.....dumber. Clearly you've not seen any of the current Internet Bloodsports, because that's exactly how these people see themselves.
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Apr 18, 2018 20:06
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Contra's bad because her videos are tacky and her characterization of people more radical than her in her videos is always as some flavor of extreme ideologue. That she insists on debating nazis - people for whom all publicity is good unless its a direct assault on them specifically - is just icing.
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Apr 18, 2018 20:09
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CharlestheHammer posted:That’s.....dumber. How is that dumber?
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Apr 18, 2018 20:09
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Impermanent posted:Contra's bad because her videos are tacky and her characterization of people more radical than her in her videos is always as some flavor of extreme ideologue. Are you mad about the catgirl? I find the characters endearing, if only because it's clearly meant to be a combination of memes and internal monologue/debate. There's a reason why Reasonable Contra is hung up on Radical Cat-Girl Contra even though the latter isn't into it, other than comedy value. It's a representation of empathy for and understanding of far-left positions, even if she doesn't strictly agree with them.
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Apr 18, 2018 20:11
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I'm only familiar with Contra through this thread and I wonder why she's still taken quite seriously. Every time she's brought up, it's her rationalizing her outreach to racists.
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Apr 18, 2018 20:11
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Maybe ACES didn't know what 'kayfabe' means, it's understandable, it's a weird word
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Apr 18, 2018 20:14
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ACES CURE PLANES posted:I mean, like, take something like this: Her point is that they’re morally disgusting for having no sincere or stable values and for treating politics like a game. She’s not saying they’re good because they’re insincere nazis. She’s a philosopher accusing them of being Thrasymachus. For reference, being hollow men who believe in nothing but money is the problem with the NYT scum who poo poo out glowing profiles of nazis for being so polite. Have you never read or heard anything she has said about nazis?
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Apr 18, 2018 20:15
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