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Not Wolverine
Jul 1, 2007

ewe2 posted:

you evil person :v:

I do an LFS every couple of years to keep up with the core system changes, a lot of it is tedious but there's some fun in seeing the pieces come together and for extra credit I make a VDI out of it and do the BLFS from that.

But its a big learning curve for anyone who isn't comfortable with the command-line yet, and kernel compilation isn't that big a deal on most distributions, I've been rolling my own on Debian for a while, drat things are getting so big these days.
I have never done LFS but I have always wanted just so I can actually have a (sorta) educated opinion on things like GRUB vs LILO, Pulse audio, Upstart vs whatever the old method was called, etc. I know all of my examples are out of date, I don't Linux enough.

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evol262
Nov 30, 2010
#!/usr/bin/perl

Crotch Fruit posted:

I have never done LFS but I have always wanted just so I can actually have a (sorta) educated opinion on things like GRUB vs LILO, Pulse audio, Upstart vs whatever the old method was called, etc. I know all of my examples are out of date, I don't Linux enough.

This is the big mistake of Arch/Gentoo/LFS/etc.

"I'm an end-user who likes solving nonexistent problems by copy+pasting random poo poo from forums, and I hate PulseAudio because ${reasons_that_dont_apply_to_real_distros}!"

The big wins in grub, Pulse, systemd, dbus, and other 'contentious' applications are that the ecosystems are mature, and they solve problems which have plagued distro mantainers, developers, and administrators of large-scale systems for years.

Why use grub? Because grubby, dracut, and /etc/default/grub means that adding a karg to every system in your environment which 'sticks' on every kernel update is literally one line in Ansible/Puppet/Chef/whatever the hell you use.

Systemd? Starting a trivial shell script to configure something, ensuring that daemons start when networking is really up or that they die/restart gracefully doesn't require supervisord or awful hacked up poo poo.

Rinse and repeat.

I don't mean this in an elitist way, but it's hard to have a (sorta) educated opinion on any of this without building large/complex systems/environments and spending an inordinate amount of time/effort papering over warty old stuff.

Varkk
Apr 17, 2004

Crotch Fruit posted:

I have never done LFS but I have always wanted just so I can actually have a (sorta) educated opinion on things like GRUB vs LILO, Pulse audio, Upstart vs whatever the old method was called, etc. I know all of my examples are out of date, I don't Linux enough.

I don’t see what useful information you will glean from a lot of those building from scratch instead of using an established distribution for day to day use.
As an example setting up and running dual boot on a desktop with a modern distro and Windows will teach you a lot more about boot loaders than setting up one of a LFS hack build.

ewe2
Jul 1, 2009

Crotch Fruit posted:

I have never done LFS but I have always wanted just so I can actually have a (sorta) educated opinion on things like GRUB vs LILO, Pulse audio, Upstart vs whatever the old method was called, etc. I know all of my examples are out of date, I don't Linux enough.

LFS won't help you with understanding distribution choices, it's more about understanding how barebones systems using the Linux kernel can be built using bootstrapping techniques, it's really a nerd thing. Audio and init systems can be added on top of that (BLFS), but they're not the object of the exercise. You're really better off with a good intermediate book, and I wish I could recommend one that wasn't dated in some way.

Not Wolverine
Jul 1, 2007
I agree with a lot of that in that LFS, Arch and Gentoo primarily only teach how to copy and paste archaic commands, that's the big reason I put "sorta educated" experience there. Ultimately, I feel it is still just slightly better than only being a user of Ubuntu. I have not switched to Linux because I don't understand enough about how to fix issues, if I am on Linux and say Netflix doesn't work, I am going to just ask Google and out in some cryptic commands hoping that it will fix the issue without really knowing the underlying g problem. If on Windows, I know Netflix is broken because my Flash or Silverlight (LOLz) is out of date and I know how to fix it. on Linux, if Netflix is broken I know that Google said package abcxyz.fu is out of date and oh by the way this was actually the instructions for Ubuntu 1.0 which you are totally not using. But at least one archaic and somewhat useless fact I learned with Arch is that WPAsupplicant is a file where the wifi key is stored, knowing the existence of that file and what it does makes Ubuntu spitting "WPAsupplicant file not found" actually sorta make sense and helps point me where to look for the answer.

To me, learning Linux by "just using it" means learning to put up with broken poo poo until some wizard on the internet posts the right fix, which is difficult to find to the point where it might as well not exist, or live with until the next update. Maybe using Linux for a complex task like a file or web server might teach me more about how to troubleshoot Linux, but only in the file or web server sense not so much the just get Netflix to work sense. *Disclaimer I don't actually care about Netflix on Linux, it probably works great, but a few years back, I seem to remember it being the common problem a lot of new users struggled to fix.

anthonypants
May 6, 2007

by Nyc_Tattoo
Dinosaur Gum

Crotch Fruit posted:

I agree with a lot of that in that LFS, Arch and Gentoo primarily only teach how to copy and paste archaic commands, that's the big reason I put "sorta educated" experience there. Ultimately, I feel it is still just slightly better than only being a user of Ubuntu. I have not switched to Linux because I don't understand enough about how to fix issues, if I am on Linux and say Netflix doesn't work, I am going to just ask Google and out in some cryptic commands hoping that it will fix the issue without really knowing the underlying g problem. If on Windows, I know Netflix is broken because my Flash or Silverlight (LOLz) is out of date and I know how to fix it. on Linux, if Netflix is broken I know that Google said package abcxyz.fu is out of date and oh by the way this was actually the instructions for Ubuntu 1.0 which you are totally not using. But at least one archaic and somewhat useless fact I learned with Arch is that WPAsupplicant is a file where the wifi key is stored, knowing the existence of that file and what it does makes Ubuntu spitting "WPAsupplicant file not found" actually sorta make sense and helps point me where to look for the answer.

To me, learning Linux by "just using it" means learning to put up with broken poo poo until some wizard on the internet posts the right fix, which is difficult to find to the point where it might as well not exist, or live with until the next update. Maybe using Linux for a complex task like a file or web server might teach me more about how to troubleshoot Linux, but only in the file or web server sense not so much the just get Netflix to work sense. *Disclaimer I don't actually care about Netflix on Linux, it probably works great, but a few years back, I seem to remember it being the common problem a lot of new users struggled to fix.
You know those posts on Snack Overflow, where the top rated answer is the quick fix but technically wrong or dangerous, but it still works so everyone does it that way, but then if you keep looking at the replies there's a much more complete and detailed answer below it? The first answer is [the bad distro you like], and the second answer is [the good distro I like].

Not Wolverine
Jul 1, 2007
My primary experience has actually been looking on the Ubuntu forums and finding lots of posts like "guys it's broken" where the OP doesn't give enough details and the fixes are either dangerous, wrong or both, or no fix at all. . . But I might try reading Snack Overflow, if I try to use Linux again, if I ever get tired of Windows 10 giving all my sensitive private information porn viewing habits to Bill Gates.

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe
1. choosing between upfart and systemd won't make you an informed linux. leave that to the system architects who design things.

2. pick a reasonable system. linux, unfortunately, is populated with nerds who think that their system should be like lego and you can swap in filesystems and audio servers like no tomorrow. ignore them and pick a reasonable system.

3. if you want to design your own system, it will be a lot of work and incredible hell. don't do it.

4. don't use linux

nesamdoom
Apr 15, 2018

nesaM killed Masen

Crotch Fruit posted:

To me, learning Linux by "just using it" means learning to put up with broken poo poo until some wizard on the internet posts the right fix, which is difficult to find to the point where it might as well not exist, or live with until the next update. Maybe using Linux for a complex task like a file or web server might teach me more about how to troubleshoot Linux, but only in the file or web server sense not so much the just get Netflix to work sense. *Disclaimer I don't actually care about Netflix on Linux, it probably works great, but a few years back, I seem to remember it being the common problem a lot of new users struggled to fix.

It's license based things tied to paid OSes that are a pain. Any OS you have to learn by using really, and alot of the time people recommend Ubuntu or Linux Mint just because it's the easy way. I personally think that my Arch install was pretty easy to manage. I get more problems with Windows 7 giving me random errors than I do in Linux anymore. Maybe it's just that I've got a very minimal Arch+i3 install that I use on my bedroom comp and my main OS is Parrot Security (which is very stable for the usefulness it provides me). You can always take the "wizard" route or learn the actual problem, which prepares you for similar situations. Using it as a file server is a decent way to go if you go through the steps, and maybe learn how it works along the way. In all honesty though I just prefer to have my system running as light as it can, even if its just to boot using less than a GB of RAM (my Arch is 47MB) or using less than 1% of CPU. I still use Windows for alot of things but I prefer the ease of everything I get from Linux. Also, just to put out, it's not complex to use as a file server. it took me less than an hour to install and set up each of my servers to boot to ssh and then it was just copying my configs onto them.

evol262
Nov 30, 2010
#!/usr/bin/perl
You're looking for some kind of golden distro here, and it doesn't exist.

Follow Dish's advice an install a popular distro which mostly stays out of your way and provides whatever you want (Netflix, gaymes, copr/ppa-style user repos, whatever). Actually use it for day to day stuff. If you need/want services, set them up.

You'll eventually run into real, systemic problems or have enough interest that you'll find a Linux job where you encounter real, systemic problems. Find workarounds for starting services, the terrible way NetworkManager handles vlan+bond, etc, and you'll start learning why you do and don't like certain design decisions.

Linux is not a traditional UNIX or BSD (where there's a base system mostly maintained by one team, with extras in /usr/local). It's a grab bag of random poo poo people assembled which sorta works. There is no book which will tell you any combination of why rpcbind is needed for NFS (and what it does), how systemd process nsmespacing works (or what namespacing is), the double fork problem systemd solves, and how to make Netflix/non-distro nodejs/python/ruby development environments play nice.

At some point, you just have to do it. Or don't.

Fantastic Foreskin
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.

How much tinkering are you planning to do for reasons and how much just for the sake of it?

E: I guess, what are you intending to do with this hypothetical Linux install?

Fantastic Foreskin fucked around with this message at 13:23 on Apr 20, 2018

Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.

Crotch Fruit posted:

I agree with a lot of that in that LFS, Arch and Gentoo primarily only teach how to copy and paste archaic commands
Did you mean "arcane" rather than "archaic"? The Arch Linux community is a lot of things, but "mired in deprecated or broken ways of doing things" isn't a descriptor I would generally use. The Ubuntu wiki, on the other hand, suffers from a terrible lack of curation and Google searches will still comfortably return you results on how to do something in Ubuntu Hoary.

xzzy
Mar 5, 2009

The arch wiki is probably the best linux "how do I do a thing" site out there right now.

Yes it's basically cut and paste admin but I don't have an issue with that, it lets you quickly get a basic config going from which you can add customization. It could definitely be better but in the sphere of "linux documentation" they're a rare diamond.

Boris Galerkin
Dec 17, 2011

I don't understand why I can't harass people online. Seriously, somebody please explain why I shouldn't be allowed to stalk others on social media!
Does anyone know if Fedora 27/Linux supports daisy chaining monitors (via DisplayPort)?

evol262
Nov 30, 2010
#!/usr/bin/perl
This has been supported since about kernel 3.3, assuming your GPU has MST support and the displays support MST (or you have a MST hub)

In general, nVidia's drivers are very similar to what they have on Windows. Intel directly contributes code. AMD is 75/25.

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe

evol262 posted:

You're looking for some kind of golden distro here, and it doesn't exist.

alternatively: the geek knowledge you hope to attain is not useful unless you want to be a system designer and work at red hat. the worst knowledge you can attain is the stuff that makes ISV's lives harder since now they have to support your bespoke OpenRC+OSSv4+BtrFS system that doesn't have DBus because "DBus sucks" and instead uses 9pfs. the choices that distros make are made for good reason even if you might not understand them. LFS lets you "be your own system designer" and is your one-way ticket to suckville.

evol262 posted:

the terrible way NetworkManager handles vlan+bond

i thought they fixed this by now? lmao

unruly
May 12, 2002

YES!!!

xzzy posted:

The arch wiki is probably the best linux "how do I do a thing" site out there right now.

Yes it's basically cut and paste admin but I don't have an issue with that, it lets you quickly get a basic config going from which you can add customization. It could definitely be better but in the sphere of "linux documentation" they're a rare diamond.
The nice thing about the Arch Wiki is that it's often times enough to get you going or point you in the right direction, or even outline the weird common problems that crop up. Not everything needs to be a teachable moment. Sometimes you just need to get pulseaudio running or get a good set of compton flags that do basically what you want and go.

evol262
Nov 30, 2010
#!/usr/bin/perl

Suspicious Dish posted:

i thought they fixed this by now? lmao

There are 2 regressions that I know of in 7.5. One is in NM+Anaconda, the other is NM+cockpit. Both result in active/passive bondings failing to acquire a DHCP address :eng99:

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe
networking in linux is just consistently awful, eh

Docjowles
Apr 9, 2009


I’m just here to acknowledge that your Pokey the Penguin avatar owns

Super-NintendoUser
Jan 16, 2004

COWABUNGERDER COMPADRES
Soiled Meat
Dang it. Red hat cancelled my exam. Now I have to take it at a kiosk place a week earlier. Ugh. The kiosks look like garbage.

evol262
Nov 30, 2010
#!/usr/bin/perl
The test environment is exactly the same no matter where you do it.

Super-NintendoUser
Jan 16, 2004

COWABUNGERDER COMPADRES
Soiled Meat

evol262 posted:

The test environment is exactly the same no matter where you do it.

Oh. I looked up the kiosks and they were described as being way inferior to the arrangement for tests at the end of the boot camp, which is what I did last time and scheduled again.

Yaoi Gagarin
Feb 20, 2014

Out of curiosity, can one of you real Linux admin tell me if anyone actually uses kvm/qemu filesystem sharing? It seems incredibly janky

RFC2324
Jun 7, 2012

http 418

VostokProgram posted:

Out of curiosity, can one of you real Linux admin tell me if anyone actually uses kvm/qemu filesystem sharing? It seems incredibly janky

I have in my home lab, but it seems fine once you get it working. I don't remember exactly what I had to do but there was some trick to getting the guest to see and mount the shared filesystems.

Then I just used an NFS share on an internal only network, and never looked back

Yaoi Gagarin
Feb 20, 2014

RFC2324 posted:

I have in my home lab, but it seems fine once you get it working. I don't remember exactly what I had to do but there was some trick to getting the guest to see and mount the shared filesystems.

Then I just used an NFS share on an internal only network, and never looked back

The nfs thing is a problem for me because my VM has to use some lovely VPN software to access another company's network and it does something weird that prevents the machine from accessing our internal network (which is why I put this in a VM)

RFC2324
Jun 7, 2012

http 418

VostokProgram posted:

The nfs thing is a problem for me because my VM has to use some lovely VPN software to access another company's network and it does something weird that prevents the machine from accessing our internal network (which is why I put this in a VM)

i mean the internal only network, running on a separate virtual nic.

Yaoi Gagarin
Feb 20, 2014

RFC2324 posted:

i mean the internal only network, running on a separate virtual nic.

Tell me more about this, it sounds like it might solve all my problems

Horse Clocks
Dec 14, 2004


VostokProgram posted:

Tell me more about this, it sounds like it might solve all my problems

You should be able to add multiple network cards to your VM.

One is your ‘internet’ NIC which is connected to either a bridge or NAT network to get outbound connectivity (this you already have)

The other is added to a local or isolated network that only the VM(s) and Host are on, with a completely different subnet.

Then you mount your NFS share via the local network, and it should be unaffected by any route changes on the guest.

How you do this depends on which hypervisor, management tool and version you’re using. But you should be linked to the various configuration options by starting with adding a new NIC to the VM.

RFC2324
Jun 7, 2012

http 418

Horse Clocks posted:

You should be able to add multiple network cards to your VM.

One is your ‘internet’ NIC which is connected to either a bridge or NAT network to get outbound connectivity (this you already have)

The other is added to a local or isolated network that only the VM(s) and Host are on, with a completely different subnet.

Then you mount your NFS share via the local network, and it should be unaffected by any route changes on the guest.

How you do this depends on which hypervisor, management tool and version you’re using. But you should be linked to the various configuration options by starting with adding a new NIC to the VM.

no i mean any internal only network with no access to the outside network at all. the only issue i can see is that i don't know how tat would handle being clustered, if that's happening.

essential you can set up a network that only communicates with the vms or the host, no external communication at all. it works functionally just like mounting a drive locally but you issue the commands to mount it as nfs

SoftNum
Mar 31, 2011

VostokProgram posted:

The nfs thing is a problem for me because my VM has to use some lovely VPN software to access another company's network and it does something weird that prevents the machine from accessing our internal network (which is why I put this in a VM)

Which lovely VPN software is this? Cause there's patches for most of them to overwrite this behavior.

Yaoi Gagarin
Feb 20, 2014

SoftNum posted:

Which lovely VPN software is this? Cause there's patches for most of them to overwrite this behavior.

Cisco AnyConnect I believe

Wrt to the internal network stuff, I'll see if I can figure out how to do that with kvm. Thanks!

anthonypants
May 6, 2007

by Nyc_Tattoo
Dinosaur Gum

VostokProgram posted:

Cisco AnyConnect I believe

Wrt to the internal network stuff, I'll see if I can figure out how to do that with kvm. Thanks!
Someone in your organization needs to give this document a read https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/support/docs/security/anyconnect-secure-mobility-client/119006-configure-anyconnect-00.html

SoftNum
Mar 31, 2011


And if they refuse to fix the ASA, you can get alternate VPN clients that let you turn it off client side. Shrewsoft was the one I used forever but I think there's more modern ones now.

Droo
Jun 25, 2003

I have a Synology server exhibiting this odd behavior, but it seems to be a Ubuntu issue as well so I thought I would ask here.

I have an 8 drive mdadm raid 6 array and the resync is very slow, and the reason is because /sys/block/md2/md/stripe_cache_size is set to 256. I can speed up the resync significantly by setting the stripe size to a larger number (8192) which still uses less than 500MB of my 3GB or memory. However, within about 20 seconds the value has drifted all the way back down to 256:

root@DS1812 > cat /sys/block/md2/md/stripe_cache_size 8192
root@DS1812 > cat /sys/block/md2/md/stripe_cache_size 6400
root@DS1812 > cat /sys/block/md2/md/stripe_cache_size 6174
root@DS1812 > cat /sys/block/md2/md/stripe_cache_size 256

I have poked around everywhere trying to figure out why or how it is drifting back to 256 but I can't figure it out. I have tried the suggested udev rule here https://askubuntu.com/questions/208...=google_rich_qa but that only sets it 1 time and then it drifts back down again. There is plenty of free memory available on the device and nothing else is running so I don't think it's a resource thing.

Anyone have any idea why it won't keep the setting? Based on the way it incrementally ratchets down it sure looks like it thinks the system is low on memory or something, but I can't see any problems.

Yaoi Gagarin
Feb 20, 2014


Well the Cisco thing isn't something controlled by our IT department, it's something our very bullshit customer uses, and we have to use it to access their internal website. Our own VPN is very nice and well-behaved.

Janitor Prime
Jan 22, 2004

PC LOAD LETTER

What da fuck does that mean

Fun Shoe

VostokProgram posted:

Well the Cisco thing isn't something controlled by our IT department, it's something our very bullshit customer uses, and we have to use it to access their internal website. Our own VPN is very nice and well-behaved.

Exactly, hell is other people's VPN software :(

soggywaffles
Mar 18, 2009

Janitor Prime posted:

Exactly, hell is other people's VPN software :(

openconnect > AnyConnect, iproute2 static and/or policy-based routes, maybe dnsmasq and you can make most lovely VPN configs work fine. Split tunnel and split tree however you want on the client side. Bonus points for doing it through config management.

No I do not want you to replace my default route just so I can access a few networks/hosts...

fletcher
Jun 27, 2003

ken park is my favorite movie

Cybernetic Crumb
Where did the google-chrome-stable package go??

code:
[root@ip-10-0-203-132 ~]# cat /etc/yum.repos.d/google-chrome.repo 

[google-chrome]
name=Google Chrome Repo
baseurl=http://dl.google.com/linux/chrome/rpm/stable/$basearch
enabled=1
fastestmirror_enabled=0
gpgcheck=1
gpgkey=https://dl-ssl.google.com/linux/linux_signing_key.pub
code:
[root@ip-10-0-203-132 ~]# yum install google-chrome-stable
Loaded plugins: amazon-id, rhui-lb, search-disabled-repos
No package google-chrome-stable available.
code:
[root@ip-10-0-203-132 ~]# yum list google-chrome*
Loaded plugins: amazon-id, rhui-lb, search-disabled-repos
Available Packages
google-chrome-beta.x86_64                                                                                               67.0.3396.18-1                                                                                           google-chrome
google-chrome-unstable.x86_64                                                                                           68.0.3409.2-1                                                                                            google-chrome

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anthonypants
May 6, 2007

by Nyc_Tattoo
Dinosaur Gum

fletcher posted:

Where did the google-chrome-stable package go??

code:
[root@ip-10-0-203-132 ~]# cat /etc/yum.repos.d/google-chrome.repo 

[google-chrome]
name=Google Chrome Repo
baseurl=http://dl.google.com/linux/chrome/rpm/stable/$basearch
enabled=1
fastestmirror_enabled=0
gpgcheck=1
gpgkey=https://dl-ssl.google.com/linux/linux_signing_key.pub
code:
[root@ip-10-0-203-132 ~]# yum install google-chrome-stable
Loaded plugins: amazon-id, rhui-lb, search-disabled-repos
No package google-chrome-stable available.
code:
[root@ip-10-0-203-132 ~]# yum list google-chrome*
Loaded plugins: amazon-id, rhui-lb, search-disabled-repos
Available Packages
google-chrome-beta.x86_64                                                                                               67.0.3396.18-1                                                                                           google-chrome
google-chrome-unstable.x86_64                                                                                           68.0.3409.2-1                                                                                            google-chrome
Those are the only packages listed in https://dl.google.com/linux/chrome/rpm/stable/x86_64/repodata/other.xml.gz

Does the rpm at https://dl.google.com/linux/direct/google-chrome-stable_current_x86_64.rpm still work?

anthonypants fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Apr 27, 2018

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