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getting bummed out with the few companies that have got back to me only to say "hey someone will be in touch in the next few weeks to schedule an interview". also getting anxious because now i'm fighting against all these soon-to-be recent grads for coveted Jr. Software Shitter roles. also got a canned rejection about a job in my dream location of Juneau, AK but i'm still holding out hope on all the government jobs i applied to up there 
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Apr 21, 2018 03:24
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Shaman Linavi posted:my dream location of Juneau, AK 
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Apr 21, 2018 03:27
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Apr 21, 2018 07:06
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Schadenboner posted:This is a whole lotta words that I didn't read any of.
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Apr 21, 2018 07:29
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Gazpacho posted:if you read even one word of it i will smash your face Oh poo poo, I read "operations"! 
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Apr 21, 2018 11:33
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Space Whale posted:OK But how do you poo poo one out and then implement methods in it in a live interview quickly? honestly it's mostly about if you've seen the problem or a variation of the problem before, because then you go straight to writing the right classes/methods. if it's a completely new problem to you, you just gotta pray that the interviewer is able to appreciate you brainstorming some ideas that maybe converge to the right design. (in my experience OOP is not very good with this  )but yeah my point is that experience is the key, practice these kind of questions and look up the answers. Symbolic Butt fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Apr 21, 2018 |
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Apr 21, 2018 14:58
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I've never discounted an interviewee if they say "well we only have X minutes so I'll just write stubs for these methods" *def method(): raise NotImplementedError*. If I get a candidate writing code for an OOP problem in usually looking for structure and data flow. I'm also terrible at OOP and that might be showing in how I interview.
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Apr 21, 2018 15:35
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Symbolic Butt posted:if it's a completely new problem to you, you just gotta pray that the interviewer is able to able to appreciate you brainstorming some ideas that maybe converge to the right design. (in my experience OOP is not very good with this Again pulling from limited experience here, but I've seen management be careful to not put the peope who can't appreciate this sort of thing in the interviewer pool. The strongest technical guys on my team are the most self critical, and they themselves admit we'd never grow the team if they were allowed to pass/fail candidates based on how well the interviewee approached a new-to-them problem that the interviewer could ace in one pass while sleeping.
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Apr 21, 2018 15:40
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Symbolic Butt posted:honestly it's mostly about if you've seen the problem or a variation of the problem before, because then you go straight to writing the right classes/methods. Have you interviewed enough to pass this interview? If you can grind interviews, the interview is terrible.
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Apr 21, 2018 18:24
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TimWinter posted:Again pulling from limited experience here, but I've seen management be careful to not put the peope who can't appreciate this sort of thing in the interviewer pool. Can I work for your team? Seriously. I'm looking for environment, and that's the healthiest thing I've seen in a while.
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Apr 21, 2018 18:25
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Haha, I work for a startup, so the good is balanced with what I hope are just growing pains. If you're serious, shoot me a resume at my email, tim@ the domain in my avatar. Then you can corroborate (or call out my lies on) everything I've said about interview/hiring practices.
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Apr 21, 2018 21:00
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Space Whale posted:Have you interviewed enough to pass this interview? well yeah, that's the job market for you  but still, you can't help it, as a programmer you need to cultivate a repertoire. at "real work", with non-obvious problems I don't like to start with classes, I try to prototype everything with small structs and functions. eventually patterns emerge and that's the moment that I encapsulate certain things within classes and methods. I guess this is more of a "bottom-up approach" to OOP, it's what works for me and how I keep faking it in enterprise coding. it also helps me to avoid a lot of bikeshedding.
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Apr 21, 2018 21:32
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I did an interview the other day, the position was for a linux sysadmin/devops thing. they asked me to code a poor man's Akinator in java "in OOP style". I did it implementing a slight variation of a linked list which I guess was what they wanted. still, kind of an odd question for a devops position  "hey can you pretend you studied 4 years of baby's computer science to prove you can take care of linux machines?" "sure can!"
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Apr 21, 2018 21:39
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Symbolic Butt posted:honestly it's mostly about if you've seen the problem or a variation of the problem before, because then you go straight to writing the right classes/methods. ideally you don't go right into writing the code until after you've had a brief discussion with the interviewer to explain how you decided to go that route and what the tradeoffs are vs other options. and this gives the interviwer an opportunity to tell you if they think differently like ideally you don't start writing any code until you've both agreed on what that code is going to be doing. writing it should be effectively a formality at that point they're judging your ability to explain and work through the problem with a product owner or coworker, and if you just stand there silently for a few seconds before going directly into writing code then you're not helping them determine that. even if you know the answer off the top of your head it doesn't hurt to show your knowledge of what the other options might be and why you think they wouldn't be applicable to the problem
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Apr 21, 2018 21:43
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I didn't get many interviews where the interviewers seemed open to discuss design like that. they've been like "here's the problem, do you understand it? ok you have 20min to code this while explaining your reasoning" they seemed mostly for proving that I can actually type code than really assessing any non-gimmicky programming skill what I'm saying is that interviewing is slowly killing me lol
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Apr 21, 2018 22:01
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OK so look stuff up What is the canonical SUDOKU or ELEVATOR class/object model?
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Apr 22, 2018 01:49
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Space Whale posted:OK so look stuff up As someone who still believes in OOP but never "got" it, I'm also interested in this
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Apr 22, 2018 02:52
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you shouldn't approach the problem as if the interviewer wants you to shake out some canonical answer in all of its detail. (maybe you get a dick interviewer who does, but don't assume it.) as Yegge explains, OO design questions are meant to find competent designers, but they're also meant to eliminate - candidates who blank completely and don't even give a bad answer - candidates who try to word-salad their way through (e.g. "Car is a subclass of Garage") the reference definitions of polymorphism, inheritance and encapsulation are easy enough to memorize (or crib in a phone screen). an OO design question tests whether the candidate has the concepts, not just the definitions.
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Apr 22, 2018 10:53
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why would you inflict steve yegge on innocent people like us what crimes have we committed to deserve that
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Apr 22, 2018 15:47
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Symbolic Butt posted:I did an interview the other day, the position was for a linux sysadmin/devops thing. they asked me to code a poor man's Akinator in java "in OOP style". I did it implementing a slight variation of a linked list which I guess was what they wanted. you would be surprised how many sysadmins can't code like, at all
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Apr 22, 2018 20:18
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:you would be surprised how many sysadmins can't code
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Apr 22, 2018 20:48
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:you would be surprised how many sysadmins can't code i'd be surprised if any sysadmins could code like, at all
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Apr 22, 2018 21:06
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:you would be surprised how many sysadmins can't code HoboMan posted:i'd be surprised if any sysadmins could code yeah I get that, I expected this kind of question in a "software engineer" position, not in a linux janitor position but what do I know
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Apr 22, 2018 21:48
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I want to devops and do it everywhere I work but can't get a devops job without experience lol
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Apr 23, 2018 00:40
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Sapozhnik posted:why would you inflict steve yegge on innocent people like us idk what a yegge is but that article seems to be OK and certainly helped to show me how i've failed at interviews in the past also lolling that it was written in 04 and its still all the same poo poo
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Apr 23, 2018 00:47
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Symbolic Butt posted:yeah I get that, I expected this kind of question in a "software engineer" position, not in a linux janitor position but what do I know devops is supposed to be an engineering position
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Apr 23, 2018 00:52
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hobbesmaster posted:devops is supposed to be an engineering position devops is just what startups call "ops" now
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Apr 23, 2018 01:13
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:devops is just what startups call "ops" now i'm guessing they don't pay more like companies that actually are hiring developers that can also do ops
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Apr 23, 2018 01:29
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I think the phrase you want for a devops job that doesn’t blow chunks is “SRE”
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Apr 23, 2018 01:34
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hobbesmaster posted:i'm guessing they don't pay more like companies that actually are hiring developers that can also do ops they sure don't
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Apr 23, 2018 01:39
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Arcsech posted:I think the phrase you want for a devops job that doesn’t blow chunks is “SRE” don't worry that's just a meaningless buzzword now, too
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Apr 23, 2018 01:39
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hmmm glad I never seriously looked at devops positions then i do like how recruiters keep trying to grab embedded Linux people for infrastructure roles
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Apr 23, 2018 01:46
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hobbesmaster posted:hmmm glad I never seriously looked at devops positions then recruiters are blind pattern matchers posting says "linux" resume says "linux" let's call
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Apr 23, 2018 02:08
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"devops" as a position is a massive signal that the company doesn't actually understand what it is. unfortunately, that's apparently every company.
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Apr 23, 2018 02:08
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:you would be surprised how many sysadmins can't code this past phone interview was exactly that  .jony neuemonic posted:"devops" as a position is a massive signal that the company doesn't actually understand what it is. on the other side of it, interviewing people who put devops on their resume has gone fairly poorly for us over the past year. maybe the answer is most companies/candidates aren’t so great
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Apr 23, 2018 02:16
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Arcsech posted:a devops job that doesn’t blow chunks Good luck with that.
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Apr 23, 2018 02:18
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Part of the hesitancy when hiring devops without direct devops experience is warranted: the last devops meetup I went to had a senior devop lecturing people with zero work experience on how to spin up docker containers on aws as experience to get a cushy devops job.
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Apr 23, 2018 02:22
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the whole devops/sre bullshit minefield is stupid as hell because everyone involved in it is making stupid decisions 1) the business read the phoenix project and figured out a 'convenient' way to turn IT from a cost center into a profit center; fire your it people and hire devops people instead! 2) the developers don't give a poo poo because a good 80% of professional software developers in industry want to pull tickets off of jira for 8 hours, write some code, and go home. most of these people should not be trusted to do anything with their computers other than program them, and that last part's a bit dicey 3) the traditional ops people feel like their jobs are being threatened because they don't know how to program (by and large this is correct, and would be correct no matter what; if they don't get devopsed out of existence, they'll get outsourced or replaced by managed service organizations or platform providers or linux or something), so they start cranking through 'how to devops 101' and poo poo in the pool for everyone else 4) the handful of people that give a poo poo about devops/sre positions for realsies get hosed because there's not a lot of jobs that actually fit their skillset and few open up because if you actually are doing interesting work around developer tooling, infrastructure automation, et. al. you're probably a lynchpin and aren't going to leave traditional it/ops roles are still critically important and are a completely different skillset, imo. ideally "devops" in a professional software dev org is mostly concerned with improving the efficiency and effectiveness of the sdlc via tooling and automation at varying parts of the process.
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Apr 23, 2018 02:37
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uncurable mlady posted:the whole devops/sre bullshit minefield is stupid as hell because everyone involved in it is making stupid decisions 
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Apr 23, 2018 03:28
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FamDav posted:maybe the answer is most companies/candidates aren’t so great sounds about right, yeah.
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Apr 23, 2018 03:38
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