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I'm gonna say 40 years and a month. The involuntary manslaughter and Kinslaying apply in full, the kidnapping was done out of desperation because she could not conceive herself, so ease up on the punishment there, only 15 years instead of the full 30. Waive the attacking a shepherd and possession charges, they're ultimately the fault of the rear end in a top hat shepherd who didn't take care of her earlier. Plus one month to clear up the insanity. Also, take her to the homestead, we need to see that her husband hasn't been injured. Groetgaffel posted:Additionally because I love looove trouble, lash the unconscious woman to one horse so she can't fall off, and have Roy and Delfina share the other horse.
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Apr 30, 2018 11:18
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The unconscious woman can't ride, she'd have to be laid across the saddle or held up by another rider whose on bareback behind her, either way there's no reason for Roy to walk, just ride bareback for a couple hours, with his extra virility he has buns of steel and won't feel it.
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Apr 30, 2018 12:39
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Note to self. Messed up in that Joy is supposedly buried and not buried at the same time. Reminded that this is a rough draft. She's buried, but I need sleep.
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Apr 30, 2018 12:47
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Ice Phisherman posted:Note to self. Messed up in that Joy is supposedly buried and not buried at the same time. Reminded that this is a rough draft. She's buried, but I need sleep. I was wondering about that, but didn't have time to go back and re-read it. I'm actually almost tempted to add seckbd counts of involuntary manslaughter and kinslaying to Mabel's case, given that if she had given up the child at Maureen's insistence said child would not have been trapped in a plague house. So 125 years. That said, we know that this justice system actually works, and too long of a sentence is actually unjust. So I'm still cool with 65 years.
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Apr 30, 2018 13:40
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RickVoid posted:I'm actually almost tempted to add seckbd counts of involuntary manslaughter and kinslaying to Mabel's case, given that if she had given up the child at Maureen's insistence said child would not have been trapped in a plague house. So 125 years. I don’t get why everyone is rushing to apply maximums of decades of torture when at worst Mable committed a crime once out of desperation. For all we know though the gem of a husband could have been coercing her along or just blaming her for motivating his actions. There is still a reasonable chance that she is innocent and just did her best to take care of the niece her husband stole. Our information is shoddy, far from what it would take for a verdict of guilty beyond reasonable doubt in any modern court (and those still convict innocents with troubling frequency). Maybe we should worry more about the possibility of sentencing an innocent to burn for decades than of failing to sufficiently punish a criminal who showed no malice.
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Apr 30, 2018 14:21
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malbogio posted:I don’t get why everyone is rushing to apply maximums of decades of torture when at worst Mable committed a crime once out of desperation. I think the problem is that no-one knows what's normal. The maximum charges could reflect either the gravest of crimes, or perhaps it just reflects the base crime, with lesser charges given in more forgiving circumstances, like if she'd been coerced into it or something.
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Apr 30, 2018 14:46
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Back to the Homestead, because she's not part of the Horse Clan and would probably be better off recovering at home. Give her the maximum sentence, because there's no room for leniency in this world. There's a news story from Oklahoma where some teens broke into a house to commit a robbery. One of the people that lived there was home, and defended themselves with deadly force, killing the intruders. The getaway driver is being charged with felony murder. The reason? If anyone dies in the process of committing a felony, all the accomplices are held responsible. Even though she wasn't inside, she was part of the plot. Wrong or right, that's something that happens in civilization. Imagine the world this story is in, it's much more harsh than our current reality.
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Apr 30, 2018 15:02
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Higher sentences are generally better, imo. It seems that the fires burn out insanity, but they also burn out impurities of the soul and general assholery. So if you go too low you risk making heaven a worse place, too high and you end up torturing a pure soul for a bit on the tail end. Given the general dillution of heaven already afforded to assholes out east, I think we're better off leaning towards over rather than under. Throw the book at her, max sentence
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Apr 30, 2018 15:21
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Ice Phisherman posted:Rare meaning they were probably bastards of Shepherds. Roy did not say that part out loud as he was not from one of those families. I think this is worth bearing in mind; Shepherds aren’t ‘untouchable’ enough that they don’t have the opportunity to father illegitimate children. (I’m going to assume the best here and not get into any untoward circumstances here). Ice Phisherman posted:We are Horse Clan. We do not lie, because we do not suffer dishonor. Do not stain your honor, Shepherd Roy, because the Horse Clan needs a Shepherd. I’m sure we’ll get there when we visit the other Clans; is this just the Horse Clan, or all Clans in One Tree County? Ice Phisherman posted:"It would be the head of your family. Your grandfather or father," she said, quickly. Wonderful Ice, you nailed it once again. Manners and etiquette is taught within the Family, and if you aren’t taught by your Family, then it reflects poorly on all who share your blood. Roy’s likely to have someone like Delfina tell him these things, as opposed to just judging him for it, outsider or not. Ice Phisherman posted:So if someone has cancer, I have to look for it and hope that I found it early enough to get it all. That means I have to poke around in someone with a knife. I have to touch the cancer and hope that it hasn't spread to anything vital, then cut it out while I'm already doing a lot of cutting." Wait, so Shepherds are surgeons too? That’s one hell of an education you got there, Roy, Ice Phisherman posted:Roy idly wondered just how big of a badass Maureen Mathers had been to spend thirty years in One Tree County and deal with demons at least once every two to three years. Ten Forum Bucks says Mo was able to kill Demons because of Bri. Ice Phisherman posted:Many people still thought that bad air was what transmitted disease. Marvelous. Ice Phisherman posted:"Die," was all he said, as he breathed out smoke with the word.  So, this is what a Western Spell-Slinger feels like. I like it, feels right.Ice Phisherman posted:"Go away," she said.  Ice!!! Why you gotta make me feel like that!!! Ice Phisherman posted:"Roy rhymes with Joy," she said, happily. You’re not even fighting fair with us at this point.  Ice Phisherman posted:“My aunt Mable," said the spirit, angrily. "She killed mommy. She and uncle Peter did. They took me away from my home. They think I didn't remember, but I do. I remember. I never forgot even though she pretended to be mommy and he pretended to be daddy." Yeah, you’re definitely not fighting fair. Ice Phisherman posted:"Shepherd Roy," began Delfina, hesitantly. "This might sound odd, but has anyone ever told you how good you smell?" Big Sister Horse Maiden you meddlesome little Pony!!!Hexenritter posted:Don't you dare apologise, that was heart rending and beautiful in a way I very rarely get to read. Darn Tooting. Bear Enthusiast posted:This is mostly a joke, but in actuality I'm curious if every Shepherd sees that clearly and if communication is possible. It’s Ice’s call of course, although I do prefer to think of it as once you pass on to the afterlife, you’re beyond caring about the concerns of mortals, including communicating with them. Think of it as a permanent out-of-office. Deadmeat5150 posted:I was in public when I read both of those! Big strapping trucker openly weeping over his phone because when Im this tired my emotions are raw. D’aaah you big cuddly teddy bear! It’s nice to know there are truckers whose interests are broader than just running Prius’s off the road and murdering hitchhikers.   Ice Phisherman posted:His wife attempted to bribe me. That's been happening more and more lately as settlers move in. I thought I was rid of that after being banished. Turns out that I just outran it for a while. If bribing Shepherds is a regular occurrence, and if Roy was banished because of it, then I’m kinda surprised there isn’t an established, accepted ritual for this sort of thing, which is often the case within an environment of systemic corruption (as it is in China, India, parts of Africa, etc.). Ice Phisherman posted:Heh. Horseshit homunculus. I slay me. It’s a good line, Mo. Ice Phisherman posted:Delfina was very close to him. Close enough to inhale his scent, which she did. Roy didn't notice. This is going to be a problem when we get back to town. Ice Phisherman posted:"Judgement begins now," said the Shepherd. Leave this place, you can’t stay, Shepherds coming, he’s on his way, Speak the Truth, confess your sins You can’t take my Joy from me. Ice Phisherman posted:CYOA Time This one is a little complicated, so bear with me. I’m concerned about the status of the husband; if Mrs. Walton is wandering the prairies by herself, something could have gone very wrong at home. So, my proposal is for Roy to switch horses with Delfina, and ride ahead to the Walton’s home to investigate. Delfina will follow behind, walking the draft horse, which will be bearing the injured woman. If Mr. Walton is fine, then Mrs. Walton can convalesce at home. Otherwise, Roy might be in for more judging today. Ice Phisherman posted:2. Sentencing the spirit. Max sentencing, plus a decade and a day (pro-rated) for every year Joy was held against her will. This isn’t a situation for eternal damnation; as Ice already discussed, there are laws on the books for these crimes. Let’s save ‘Forever’ for the truly unspeakable, inconceivable horrors that await Roy, for which the laws of man are unable to provide justice and solace. Ice Phisherman posted:Delfina is smitten. Roy has gone beyond smelling good. Whoops. I don’t feel comfortable with this; as long as its just a silly youthful crush, I suppose I can roll with it. Either way, I trust you Ice Incidentally, because I don’t even have to ask, Ice you’re clearly enjoying the heck out of writing this story, even more so than Blake Island. It shows in the writing, this is some of the best from you we’ve ever read. Ice Phisherman posted:If she'd made it (I was going to roll) she was going to catch cholera when she went into the plague house if Roy decided to tend to the injured first. You devious little Dalek. Chatrapati posted:I think the problem is that no-one knows what's normal. The maximum charges could reflect either the gravest of crimes, or perhaps it just reflects the base crime, with lesser charges given in more forgiving circumstances, like if she'd been coerced into it or something. malbogio posted:Maybe we should worry more about the possibility of sentencing an innocent to burn for decades than of failing to sufficiently punish a criminal who showed no malice. I’m open to mitigating circumstances, and the way our justice system works (which I’m going to assume is how Roy’s world works), is that sentencing occurs after the establishment of guilt. Roy judged her guilty. However, neither she, Joy, or Uncle Murder is around to appeal for leniency during sentencing. Yes, Mable buried Joy, however, she doesn’t appeared to have shown any contrition in life as she kept Joy and Marshal Horseshit didn’t get involved (Mable didn’t confess to the crimes). So, given the severity of the crime, the lack of remorse shown, and the fact that Mable tried to bribe Mo so Uncle Murder can get into Heaven, I’m in favor of a maximum sentence, plus punitive damages (yes, I realize punitive damages only occur during civil cases – Tort Law if you want to look it up; however, this being Western Justice, I’m going to pass judgement with moderate prejudice). ThatBasqueGuy posted:So if you go too low you risk making heaven a worse place, too high and you end up torturing a pure soul for a bit on the tail end. Given the general dillution of heaven already afforded to assholes out east, I think we're better off leaning towards over rather than under. I like the way you think. Also, you make a good point; since damnation isn’t forever, its likely most ‘good’ Shepherds ere on the side of longer sentences, just to be ‘sure’. And if the bribe is big enough, well, I’m sure the deceased has learned his lesson, even if he is responsible for genocide and stealing the wealth of nations. Five minutes in the penalty box ought to do.
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Apr 30, 2018 23:02
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CourValant posted:Yes, Mable buried Joy, however, she doesn’t appeared to have shown any contrition in life as she kept Joy and Marshal Horseshit didn’t get involved (Mable didn’t confess to the crimes). Yeesh. Multiple people now want to go above the maximums when these aren’t even the worst versions of these crimes. You’re punishing her extra for not wanting someone to burn in hell and for wanting to take care of her niece. As a reminder these are potentially selfless acts that you are punishing her for. As for not showing contrition we can’t even be sure she was guilty. The evidence is paper thin. The settlers appear patriarchal so for all we know Uncle Murder committed all the crimes and Aunt Mable was another one of his victims with Stockholm Syndrome, in which case Aunt Mable was innocent, no kinslaying actually happened, and we’re sentencing an innocent person to being tortured for twice as long as she got to live. Don’t expect Ice to tell us when we’re sentencing someone who was falsely accused.
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May 1, 2018 00:19
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40 years - Low, but I want to bring some of these averages down.
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May 1, 2018 00:27
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Ice Phisherman posted:In fact, I daresay if I stacked horseshit as high as Ralph Eskin I might very well create his twin. Like some sort of horseshit homunculus. Plan Jag on sentencing for me. malbogio posted:Yeesh. Multiple people now want to go above the maximums when these aren’t even the worst versions of these crimes. You’re punishing her extra for not wanting someone to burn in hell and for wanting to take care of her niece. As a reminder these are potentially selfless acts that you are punishing her for. “My aunt Mable," said the spirit, angrily. "She killed mommy. She and uncle Peter did. They took me away from my home. They think I didn't remember, but I do. I remember. I never forgot even though she pretended to be mommy and he pretended to be daddy." All told, this is a lot more evidence towards her being a willing and active participant as opposed to a poor battered Stockholm Syndrome-stricken victim. Plus I really don't buy the desperation argument. Not being able to conceive is not absolute hunger or illness or anything resembling a reason to cause harm to another person, let alone family. It is absolutely no reason to steal your niece from your sister, whether or not you kill said sister in the process.
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May 1, 2018 00:42
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I believe Roy should give her the maximum sentence.
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May 1, 2018 00:53
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malbogio posted:As for not showing contrition we can’t even be sure she was guilty. The evidence is paper thin. The settlers appear patriarchal so for all we know Uncle Murder committed all the crimes and Aunt Mable was another one of his victims with Stockholm Syndrome, in which case Aunt Mable was innocent, no kinslaying actually happened, and we’re sentencing an innocent person to being tortured for twice as long as she got to live. I see what you're saying, and without being too argumentative about it, that's not how our justice system works, see above post about being an accessory to, or after the fact of, felony murder. The laws were specifically written to assign equal guilt to all members of a criminal conspiracy / enterprise in the execution of a crime. Any laws broken is assumed to be committed by all if you have knowledge of the events, doesn't matter if you're were a willing participant. Perhaps Aunt Mable was an abused spouse of Uncle Murder, perhaps she was a victim too; maybe she tried to actively stop the kidnapping, although it doesn't appear she notified the Marshal, or at least, Mo didn't make a note of it. We'll never know, and, barring any mitigating factors or testimony, the law has to be applied as written, or the whole system just falls apart. Again, the assumption is that the legal system in Roy's World works the same as ours. malbogio posted:You’re punishing her extra for not wanting someone to burn in hell and for wanting to take care of her niece. Yes I am, because that's an indicator of remorse, or lack there of. Aunt Mable could have said, "He deserves to burn in hell and so do I, for what we've done." Except she didn't, and she tried to bribe Mo so Uncle Murder wouldn't be submerged in the lake of fire. malbogio posted:Don’t expect Ice to tell us when we’re sentencing someone who was falsely accused. That's got nothing to do with it; I'm judging the case on its merits, and this is where the facts are taking me. Also, don't forget the other reason for sentencing in the pursuit of justice, that being deterrence. There is a new Shepherd in town, quite literally, and while Marshal Horseshit is useless, let it be known that One Tree County is now under the jurisdiction of Roy Whitaker, The Man with The Iron Arm. The men of the Horse Clan will carry word of this judgement wherever their herds roam, and since they don't lie, the impact will be even more meaningful. Because from now on, while you may escape justice in life, The Man will The Iron Arm will make sure your tab is settled when the bill comes due.  cigaw posted:Plus I really don't buy the desperation argument. Not being able to conceive is not absolute hunger or illness or anything resembling a reason to cause harm to another person, let alone family. It is absolutely no reason to steal your niece from your sister, whether or not you kill said sister in the process. Yep, if you really want to be depressed, look up news reports on women who literally carve babies out of expectant mothers because they want their own child, women who walk out of hospital natal units with someone else's baby, etc.
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May 1, 2018 01:02
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CourValant posted:Because from now on, while you may escape justice in life, The Man will The Iron Arm will make sure your tab is settled when the bill comes due.
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May 1, 2018 01:11
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Cour, I agree with the theme and tone you're taking but it's the man with the steel arm, he was very specific when asked if it was iron.
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May 1, 2018 02:18
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CourValant posted:I’m sure we’ll get there when we visit the other Clans; is this just the Horse Clan, or all Clans in One Tree County? In this first book I plan on visiting all three of the clans. In the second I want to spend time in Iron Hill and potentially around The One Tree if the thread is interested. quote:Wonderful Ice, you nailed it once again. Manners and etiquette is taught within the Family, and if you aren’t taught by your Family, then it reflects poorly on all who share your blood. In most honor cultures, family is the primary social structure that their society is based around. Clans would be made up of many interrelated families with who one considers family going all the way to fourth or fifth generation. At least that's from my research. Face culture shares similarities too, though it's not the same as traditional honor culture such as Pashtunwali or Southern American honor culture. Face culture does share some similarities though and I'm going to be delving into face culture as a research project to make sure I get it right when it comes around. The exception for this in honor culture is military honor culture. Historically the family still plays a big part of military honor culture, "Come back with this shield or on it," said the Spartan woman and you'd have military families stretching back as far as one could remember. But it's not the nucleus or center of military honor culture. That would probably be the squad. I'm not getting to that for a while though so I haven't researched that as much. quote:Wait, so Shepherds are surgeons too? That’s one hell of an education you got there, Roy, So Shepherds have a lot of crossover with death magic and medicine. They can keep people from dying by preserving their lives beyond the point where they should have reasonably died. So long as they're not missing anything vital when the sustaining death magic is dispelled they should recover, though the process won't feel good. In my experience with country people, they respect honor and endurance and strength and don't really like education. Not really. People who are educated are often mistrusted. However, the exception for education tends to be that which is practical and easy to understand. People that disparage the professions that keep them alive in a way that is personal and that is well understood, said professions are resistant to anti-intellectualism. The heart doctor that keeps maw-maw alive is respected. Less so someone with a more esoteric field of focus. In any case, when kids learn if they're born with death magic or not, their path is set. They're going to become Shepherds. It's a hereditary caste. So they begin training at a young age because no other professions are open to them. So Roy is in his early thirties and would be considered a young doctor if he were a doctor today, but not a really young Shepherd. He's been training since his youth. quote:
Thanks! I wanted to set up a basic framework for the magic system. The source of fire, iron or bad feelings doesn't matter. The smokes are just an easy way for him to have access to fire that he can use at will. I didn't want him to have a bunch of hand-wavy powers without limits. He would have a hard time doing what he did without accessing fire, iron and bad feelings. So there's an element of preparation involved. On top of this, even though he has control over death and that means spirits, enslaving them is a big no no. That's what necromancers do. So Shepherds have had to find workarounds to fill in the gaps in the powers that are there due to their restraint. So their power set is going to be somewhat cobbled together which I like. I have herbs in mind that can push, pull and stop spirits. They have to be burned, which means that they're vulnerable to stuff like the wind or the rain. Magic systems are more interesting not only for what they can do, but for their limitations. Roy and the Shepherds at large are very powerful, but that power is limited by restraint. The power to kill basically anything with a little preparation and also the threat of permanently damning someone's soul is terrifying. The ticket taker at the very start of the story calls him a necromancer, and the distinction between Shepherd and necromancer is very thin. Shepherds could become absolute monsters who not only can terrify in life with near total power over said life, but threaten to make someone's afterlife a permanent place of torture. Not because of morality or immorality, but because they can. At the same time, they're 100% necessary. If all of the Shepherds were killed the earth would be consumed by hungry ghosts and demons within just a few years. The dead would go nuts in short order. One must be shepherded to the afterlife, hence the name. At one point, the necromancers were in complete control. That's the old empire I keep alluding to. They were in charge. Now they're not. They're untouchables after falling from their previous position. I'll talk more about this down the road. malbogio posted:Yeesh. Multiple people now want to go above the maximums when these aren't even the worst versions of these crimes. You're punishing her extra for not wanting someone to burn in hell and for wanting to take care of her niece. As a reminder these are potentially selfless acts that you are punishing her for. Sentencing an innocent person or letting a guilty person walk free is always a possibility. Always. The Fields isn't heaven. The Fiery Lake isn't hell. I'm working with a sort of non-traditional morality that looks like traditional Christian morality until you look closely. The Fiery Lake isn't exactly a punishment, nor is it (save for rare circumstances) forever. It's a purification process. Ideally, if you were a terrible person in life, you go to the Lake before you go to the Fields. The worse you were the longer you stay. The better you were, the shorter the stay, or you may just skip it altogether if you're deemed to be good enough. You don't have to be perfect, just good enough. There's also no penance. You can beg for forgiveness, but there is no god force that can forgive you just like there is no god force that can judge you. Forgiveness can be given by individuals, but it doesn't matter at all to one's spirit. If you gently caress up, you hosed up and you going to the Fields early makes it a worse place for everyone. There's also no faith outside of One Tree County. Faith in a higher power is alien to most people. The Fields and the Fiery Lake are real. Shepherds send people there. If you watch one work you'll catch a glimpse. What it's like exactly isn't known, but people are aware that these places exist like they're aware that the sun will rise tomorrow and the moon after it and denying either would be like denying the sun and the moon. They're constants. It's not that atheism would be the standard, because atheism requires belief in the lack of something. It requires a juxtaposition from theism. Neither would really exist outside of the county because people wouldn't have words for either theism or atheism. It wouldn't even be agnosticism, because that also supposes a lack of caring about faith. Superstition still exists. In nations today that are largely non-religious you still have people who believe in their local superstitions. The Chinese for example leap out at me, or the Icelandic peoples' belief in elves. So the people from the east and the settlers around Iron Hill are going to eventually be introduced to the concepts of theism, gods, divinity and all of these bizarre, alien concepts which they have no frame of reference for. The concepts in their head don't exist. The words for said concepts don't exist. But I'm heading that way. Atheism and agnosticism will grow as a response, called dialectics if you like fancy three dollar words or like old, dead philosophers like Hegel. Theism being the thesis and atheism being the antithesis. And I fully plan on ramming these concepts together to form synthesis out of what should be diametrically opposed philosophies. Again, just like in Blake Island, I'm going to explore these concepts, but not at some crazy high level. I want to make these ideas interesting and accessible rather than going too pie in the sky to be understood and enjoyed by most people. I'm not going to pre-chew these concepts, because I find that insulting, but introducing these concepts at a low level that people can understand interests me. The concepts will be there for people to explore if they so choose. quote:
Because evoking strong feelings is what I'm good at. quote:It’s Ice’s call of course, although I do prefer to think of it as once you pass on to the afterlife, you’re beyond caring about the concerns of mortals, including communicating with them. Not really sure yet. I'll give it a think. quote:If bribing Shepherds is a regular occurrence, and if Roy was banished because of it, then I’m kinda surprised there isn’t an established, accepted ritual for this sort of thing, which is often the case within an environment of systemic corruption (as it is in China, India, parts of Africa, etc.). I imagine that there is back east, but Maureen Mathers was banished there for thirty years specifically for not being corrupt, like Roy. Though she got in trouble for speaking truth to power while Roy got in trouble for not taking bribes. Those established rituals wouldn't have survived as she was the only representative for the guild for the entire county. Rituals have a hard time surviving in the face of hostile institutions. Maureen Mathers was that institution to the point that there was no other institutional power to appeal to. She was it. Now Roy is it. Roy is definitely going to attempt to be bribed by people who are used to the Shepherds out east as people immigrate and we'll see how that goes at some point. Probably badly. quote:I don’t feel comfortable with this; as long as its just a silly youthful crush, I suppose I can roll with it. Either way, I trust you Ice I really don't want my protagonists to take advantage of people whether they understand what they're doing or not. I control a big part of the narrative. I could attempt to justify anything because I've seen other authors try to do so. Some really reprehensible poo poo too in some cases. That's not me. I'm still the person writing it. That means I would be trying to justify something by using fictional characters as a way of pushing a narrative. "Yes, it was wrong, but X mitigating circumstances!" And I'm like nah. I do believe in nuance, but I don't believe in using excuses for my own bad behavior. I'd prefer to just not act wrongly in the first place. That said, I am going to be setting up some pretty vile people in the narrative. They are going to behave badly and people are going to suffer for their corruption. I'm not going to shine a big spotlight on what they do in the moment, but we're largely going to see the aftereffects of their bad actions as Roy and Brianna occasionally stumble across what are largely preventable and unnecessary messes that have not only ruined peoples' lives, but gotten them sentenced to a harsher afterlife for no good reason. Toughy posted:Cour, I agree with the theme and tone you're taking but it's the man with the steel arm, he was very specific when asked if it was iron. This is actually significant too. Iron is associated with destruction as far as death magic goes. It's incredibly useful, but it's not associated with anything positive. That even includes the train that Roy came in on. The "Iron Horse" would be looked upon as a negative name for a train. The fact that Roy's arm used to be iron meant that he was constantly ready to go to cast death magic in a destructive way. Steel on the other hand does not have the negative connotations that iron does. Brianna is afraid of iron, but not of steel for example. Demons are made of iron and fire, not steel and fire. Blacksmiths are not looked upon favorably as they work with iron (and fire). Iron and fire or iron and anger are both in universe ways of swearing. The fact that people are flocking to an iron mine for work shows that these people are particularly desperate and I'll talk about this more as I develop the story. So when people asked about metallurgy again, and how similar iron is to steel, there's still a process of transformation. quote:Incidentally, because I don’t even have to ask, Ice you’re clearly enjoying the heck out of writing this story, even more so than Blake Island. Thank you, and yes. I am enjoying this a lot. This is the first story I've written in a long time that is mine and mine alone. If I told my younger self I'd be writing a fantasy Western, he would've looked at me strangely and went back to pumping out romance novels for money. What I'm trying to do is pulling together a lot of themes that I've been dealing with in my life for the past few years and knitting them together into a cohesive story. I'm also taking what I learned from Blake Island and applying it here. If I'd started with this and then went to Blake Island I think Blake Island would've been a lot better than it currently is. It just means that I'm developing as a writer. This summer I'm going to be picking up a part time job at the local university to make some extra scratch to help get the Blake Island audiobook off the ground. The website is paid for and I'm going to be ordering the microphone tomorrow, but I'd like to invest in art, I need to get a webhost for the podcast and also some money for incidentals because I know unexpected expenses are going to pop up at some point. My goal in the near term is just to take some summer creative writing classes or a creative writing class and an acting class in order to develop my voice work. Nothing for a grade, because that's a distraction, but I want to get access to teachers, get my hot little hands on some books and do some networking. I'm not traditionally trained and while I know that makes my work different, I do figure I can improve with professional help. And I've developed my style enough that the lessons won't just be casually bolted on and override what I consider to be doing better. I can take what I like and leave what I don't like. So I can improve my work and maybe network to find a literary agent so I can find a traditional publisher, because I don't know anything about that. A job at my local university gives me two of those classes for free and would solve a lot of my problems (at least potentially) all at once. The job isn't going to pay the best, but it doesn't have to. I want it to get access to necessary resources to further develop my craft. I'm developing far, FAR more and far faster than I have ever done so on my own with help from you fine folks, but there's always room for improvement. If I can't get access to a literary agent, if I do but they can't sell my story or if it doesn't sell for enough to make a living then I have some secondary models for raising funds as I don't live on sunshine and happy feelings. There's a donation only model by an author who I like by the name of Wildbow that I think I could replicate and will attempt to do so for the Shadowrun work. I wouldn't have to pioneer it and bite my nails to see if it's doable or not. It is doable. He's proven it to be doable. I just have to apply myself and get the word out. I could fail, but I've failed before. It just means that I try again in a different way. Anyway, I'm poised to try and take a stab at becoming a self-sustaining author again. This is going to be a long term project. Not long as in months, but multi-year. I'll see if it pans out. I'm really prolific and I'm actually feeling way better than I was when I started Blake Island. I'm not as distracted by constant illness anymore and my work is more polished as I continue to grow as an author. So that probably contributes as well. Remember that I'm starting this story. So if you're impressed now, just wait until I complicate the world with characters and nuance. I'm not going to call my shot and say it's going to be fantastic, but if it's anything like Blake Island, as the story matures it'll get better. Ice Phisherman fucked around with this message at 09:04 on May 1, 2018 |
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May 1, 2018 07:20
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Just thinking about iron and steel, and how the former is taboo but not the latter: I feel like there'd be an in-universe fable for that drawing a connection between steelmaking and the purification of the dead on the Fiery Lakes. Steel is just iron with the impurities burned away (and some other stuff added, but that's not important for the metaphor!)
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May 1, 2018 12:05
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Dog Kisser posted:Just thinking about iron and steel, and how the former is taboo but not the latter: I feel like there'd be an in-universe fable for that drawing a connection between steelmaking and the purification of the dead on the Fiery Lakes. Steel is just iron with the impurities burned away (and some other stuff added, but that's not important for the metaphor!) That is a nice metaphor, burn away the bad add love and caring etc IP, since Roy can hide phantom arm inside his body why does he have to take off his T-1000 arm?
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May 1, 2018 14:23
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^^^^^^^ Symbolism. He is making his mind feel that phantom arm again. If the physical representation is gone (the replacement) it probably makes it a lot easier. So how else does metallurgy play a part in society? I already noticed how many things are made of aluminium, which made my gears grind a bit until I understood the setting more. But what about the "pure" precious metals like gold, silver, and platinum? What about heavier metals, or gemstones? Or yeah, that. vvvvvvvvvvvvv Deadmeat5150 fucked around with this message at 14:27 on May 1, 2018 |
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May 1, 2018 14:25
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Toughy posted:That is a nice metaphor, burn away the bad add love and caring etc You try controlling two left arms at once. I bet it would feel weird. Deadmeat5150 posted:So how else does metallurgy play a part in society? I already noticed how many things are made of aluminium, which made my gears grind a bit until I understood the setting more. But what about the "pure" precious metals like gold, silver, and platinum? What about heavier metals, or gemstones? Not sure yet. I want some metals to be more common and others to be more rare, but I need to do more research to learn what that actually means first.
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May 1, 2018 14:26
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There's a lot of cool properties about certain metals that I like. Such as copper and its alloys being naturally antimicrobial, which is why doorknobs were made of brass for so long and early surgical instruments were made of copper (after germ theory came around)
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May 1, 2018 14:30
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Plan Jag sounds good, the charges of possession and attacking a Shepherd were brought about by ahold not doing their jobs. It is they who should eventually pay for those crimes and their malfeasance. I really am loving this. Also putting our patient on one horse and sharing the other with Delfina sounds like an absolutely hilarious way to gently caress with Roy.
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May 1, 2018 18:19
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Ice Phisherman posted:Roy and the Shepherds at large are very powerful, but that power is limited by restraint. The power to kill basically anything with a little preparation and also the threat of permanently damning someone's soul is terrifying. The ticket taker at the very start of the story calls him a necromancer, and the distinction between Shepherd and necromancer is very thin. Shepherds could become absolute monsters who not only can terrify in life with near total power over said life, but threaten to make someone's afterlife a permanent place of torture. Not because of morality or immorality, but because they can. Ice Phisherman posted:The Fields isn't heaven. The Fiery Lake isn't hell. I'm working with a sort of non-traditional morality that looks like traditional Christian morality until you look closely. The Fiery Lake isn't exactly a punishment, nor is it (save for rare circumstances) forever. It's a purification process. Ideally, if you were a terrible person in life, you go to the Lake before you go to the Fields. The worse you were the longer you stay. The better you were, the shorter the stay, or you may just skip it altogether if you're deemed to be good enough. You don't have to be perfect, just good enough. The Old Empire's tech is still quite shrouded in mystery, but heck, they can make Terminator Arms. Metallurgy must have been pretty advanced. In my mind, the Old Empire's metallurgical capabilities were very much advanced. Death Magic was the foundation of it all but you needed tools to run the show, and in come the smiths. I even see smiths possessed by enslaved spirits, working forges and the anvil way past the point of human exhaustion, tirelessly turning out the Necromancer's implements. Could very well be another reason why blacksmiths are shunned today - they were an enslaved, mindless cornerstone of the Old Empire. Ice Phisherman posted:There's also no penance. You can beg for forgiveness, but there is no god force that can forgive you just like there is no god force that can judge you. Forgiveness can be given by individuals, but it doesn't matter at all to one's spirit. If you gently caress up, you hosed up and you going to the Fields early makes it a worse place for everyone. The idea of there being no ultimate god force seems to really complicate matters in the setting you're creating. One because there are Minor gods around - the Horse Maiden being one. This at the very least heavily implies that there are Major powers as well somewhere. Terminology aside - god, power, spirit, kami - they all are forces beyond mortal man directly connected to the spiritual. This may very well mean there is a god force somewhere in the power hierarchy that set the rules all spirits must abide by. Second, morality would be incredibly subjective if all judgement comes from individuals who, by default - and bribe-taking notwithstanding - are fallible and can hardly see the full picture. Then again, for all we know, the Old Empire Necromancers actually killed god and the afterlife is eventually doomed as there is no oversight on who gets sent where. Not really a comforting thought. Ice Phisherman posted:So when people asked about metallurgy again, and how similar iron is to steel, there's still a process of transformation. Dog Kisser posted:Just thinking about iron and steel, and how the former is taboo but not the latter: I feel like there'd be an in-universe fable for that drawing a connection between steelmaking and the purification of the dead on the Fiery Lakes. Steel is just iron with the impurities burned away (and some other stuff added, but that's not important for the metaphor!) All that knowledge eventually trickles down through fables to "a trip to the Fiery Lakes is how man transcends his rough Iron nature and becomes Crucible Steel."
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May 1, 2018 18:55
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Toughy posted:Cour, I agree with the theme and tone you're taking but it's the man with the steel arm, he was very specific when asked if it was iron. Ice Phisherman posted:This is actually significant too. Iron is associated with destruction as far as death magic goes. It's incredibly useful, but it's not associated with anything positive. That even includes the train that Roy came in on. The "Iron Horse" would be looked upon as a negative name for a train. Believe it or not, I intentionally wrote Iron instead of Steel for exactly this reason (as well as several others). 1 – The Man with the Steel Arm just doesn’t have the same grit and western feel as The Man with the Iron Arm. 2 – The reputation and legend of the ‘Iron Arm’ would probably go a long way to making Roy’s job easier, even if it does isolate him further. 3 – Roy can have his eye-glasses pushing nerd moment of explaining that his arm is in fact steel, and not iron, only to find that people don’t really care. Dog Kisser posted:Steel is just iron with the impurities burned away (and some other stuff added, but that's not important for the metaphor!) Ice Phisherman posted:So when people asked about metallurgy again, and how similar iron is to steel, there's still a process of transformation. This really is the best of writing classes; we’re creating this world together in real time! cigaw posted:In the Old Empire, Doctors of Necromancy used the Iron-Carbon Phase Diagram. Everyone else looks at it in confusion, and then decides that iron and steel are different because Necro-Doctor Evilsmith, phD said so.  for my fellow material science acolyte!Metallurgy is an interest of mine, specifically, the mysticism, alchemic origins, and outright magical properties folks have attributed to metal working over human history. More to the point, we’re getting into Prometheus (Greek God, not the movie) level technological knowledge creation story telling here, wherein drawing the ‘sword from the stone’ isn’t pulling a literal sword from a rock, rather, it’s how do you turn lump of iron ore (stone) into a sword (toolmaking) - think the opening forging scene from the original Conan. Merlin was in fact a Magister, not a mage. Deadmeat5150 posted:There's a lot of cool properties about certain metals that I like. Such as copper and its alloys being naturally antimicrobial, which is why doorknobs were made of brass for so long and early surgical instruments were made of copper (after germ theory came around) Something that might not be apparent, unless you really want to get into metallurgy. Refining, processing, and utilizing heavier and heavier metals is exponentially more resource intensive and damaging to the environment. Making bronze is something you can do in your backyard. Refining gold, aluminum, platinum, magnesium, nickel, requires a truly mind numbing amount of electricity and support structure. I can easily see how the Old Empire Necromancers, in their lust for more and more exotic alloys and alchemical formulas, brought down their rule through the ecological damage done in their pursuit of and faith in ‘Steel’. Ice Phisherman posted:In this first book I plan on visiting all three of the clans. In the second I want to spend time in Iron Hill and potentially around The One Tree if the thread is interested. Of course we’re interested, duh! When we get to One Tree, there better be ribbons in hair, and full moon Druid berry gathering fertility rites. Ice Phisherman posted:In my experience with country people, they respect honor and endurance and strength and don't really like education. Not really. People who are educated are often mistrusted. However, the exception for education tends to be that which is practical and easy to understand. People that disparage the professions that keep them alive in a way that is personal and that is well understood, said professions are resistant to anti-intellectualism. The heart doctor that keeps maw-maw alive is respected. Less so someone with a more esoteric field of focus. This is another reason I went with ‘Man with the Iron Arm’, which is dirt simple and easy to understand. ‘Steel Arm’ has a slightly pretentious connotation to it and seems more complicated than necessary; it’s metal, it’s your arm, we don’t need your fancy back East distinction out here. Ice Phisherman posted:In any case, when kids learn if they're born with death magic or not, their path is set. They're going to become Shepherds. It's a hereditary caste. This opens more questions; manifesting the ability to manipulate death magic is by bloodline only? It doesn’t come naturally like a mutation? Only certain families are ever capable of this feat, and it doesn’t happen spontaneously out in the world? Ice Phisherman posted:I didn't want him to have a bunch of hand-wavy powers without limits. He would have a hard time doing what he did without accessing fire, iron and bad feelings. So there's an element of preparation involved. So, spell reagents. Does that mean we can click on Bri to open up her shop menu? I’m sure Roy needs to stock up on bat guano for his Fireball spells. Ice Phisherman posted:The Fields isn't heaven. The Fiery Lake isn't hell. I'm working with a sort of non-traditional morality that looks like traditional Christian morality until you look closely. The Fiery Lake isn't exactly a punishment, nor is it (save for rare circumstances) forever. It's a purification process. Ideally, if you were a terrible person in life, you go to the Lake before you go to the Fields. You sure? Because I swear I found your character generation inspiration sheet. The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name’s sake. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever. Ice Phisherman posted:If you gently caress up, you hosed up and you going to the Fields early makes it a worse place for everyone. You realize this system inevitably leads to one end, and one end only? The Fields themselves get corrupted and the dead return to the world of the living. The Fields is the Dead Sea, or the Salton Sea. Ice Phisherman posted:Because evoking strong feelings is what I'm good at. You leave my Momma Bear / Horse Maiden alone! Ice Phisherman posted:That said, I am going to be setting up some pretty vile people in the narrative. They are going to behave badly and people are going to suffer for their corruption. You have to, it wouldn’t be a western tale of redemption if there weren’t irredeemable people. I trust you to do it properly. Ice Phisherman posted:Blacksmiths are not looked upon favorably as they work with iron (and fire). Iron and fire or iron and anger are both in universe ways of swearing. The fact that people are flocking to an iron mine for work shows that these people are particularly desperate and I'll talk about this more as I develop the story. This is all sorts of conflicted, in a good, dynamic, storytelling way. If Shepherds are vital to your immortal life, then blacksmiths are vital to your day-to-day life. Smithies and Saloons are literally the first shops established in any one horse town. Ice Phisherman posted:I'm also taking what I learned from Blake Island and applying it here. It definitely shows. Ice Phisherman posted:Anyway, I'm poised to try and take a stab at becoming a self-sustaining author again. This is going to be a long term project. Not long as in months, but multi-year. I'll see if it pans out. I'm really prolific and I'm actually feeling way better than I was when I started Blake Island. I'm not as distracted by constant illness anymore and my work is more polished as I continue to grow as an author. So that probably contributes as well. Glad you’re doing better, keep us posted on how things work out on both work and classes. Definitely set up those pay systems for either Blake Island or here, I’m down to chip in a few more bucks when the time comes. Seriously, this story is wonderful, I would gladly pay to buy this as a book. Ice Phisherman posted:Remember that I'm starting this story. So if you're impressed now, just wait until I complicate the world with characters and nuance. I'm not going to call my shot and say it's going to be fantastic, but if it's anything like Blake Island, as the story matures it'll get better. It doesn’t count if you don’t call your shot, chummer.
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May 1, 2018 21:44
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cigaw posted:Roy not only has the written account of another Shepherd - a journal is certainly not a binding document but why would she lie on thing? - but also first-hand account from the little girl. I’m not saying Maureen lied. I’m saying she’s fallible, her only source of information was a pathological liar, and her notes could fit on a post-it. Joy was probably a toddler when she was taken. I’d bet her recollection was fuzzy to nonexistent even before she became a half-mad ghost. I suspect her story was based on an argument she overheard between Mable and Maureen and a fantasized Real Mom who would treat her like a princess and wouldn’t ask her to perform the difficult chores necessary for survival rather than any real memories. Witnesses suck at telling the truth even when they’re sane and trying their hardest. Memories are not a solid thing, we rewrite them each time we recollect them. malbogio fucked around with this message at 04:51 on May 2, 2018 |
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May 2, 2018 03:33
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Ordered my microphone today. Hopefully by the beginning of next week I should begin to be able to produce the audiobook. I'm going to have the episodes in my drop box for people to listen to. This serves two purposes. One, people will be able to listen to them early and two, people will be able to tell me if something is wrong before I post it for everyone to listen to. I still need to get some art for the itunes page, get my hands on intro/outro music, then find a web hosting service and figure out how that mess works as I'm not the most technically minded of people. However, with a new month comes progress. I want to create a significant backlog of work before I start the project as this is going to be a learning process for me on the creative and technical side. Audacity doesn't seem like it'll be too difficult for me to learn to do in a basic way. I'm more worried about developing distinct and fitting voices as Blake Island has a large cast of characters. This is going to be such a long project that I have to do it all of the voice work on my own. So I want to have the entirety of the first arc finished before I begin posting anything for public consumption as a cushion in case I get sick or get distracted by life. Thanks to everyone that donated for helping me. Anyway, no update yet for this story. Apologies. I'll see about doing one later today. I've decided that I want this story to be about 70-100k words long before I end the first book and switch back to Blake Island. We're about a third or a quarter of the way through. I've been taking time to work on my characters, universe, themes and generally just thinking about what would be interesting to tell as a story. So we'll see where this goes. Luckily, I don't think that my writing time will be effected by my voice and editing time. Creating an audiobook is going to take a long time, but it's different than a purely creative act. So I don't think it should burn me out. I'll probably be able to tell if it does early on in which case I'll take it easier. I'd like to release my work twice a week for audio consumption and stick to that amount. Consistency is how I would build a following. And if it works, I'd do the same for this story in time. Exciting times.
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May 2, 2018 11:29
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That's all great news!! Very excited to see your results! Are Shephard capable but forbidden to or can't touch a living soul. I'm thinking if Roy ever needed to stun or distract a living opponent if he could just soul punch the guys still living soul.
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May 2, 2018 17:38
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Ice Phisherman posted:Exciting times.  Can't wait to hear them audio books chummer! I'm looking forward to hearing the smoke and scotch scaring on Paige's voice. Toughy posted:I'm thinking if Roy ever needed to stun or distract a living opponent if he could just soul punch the guys still living soul. That sounds awfully black hat necromancy to me.
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May 2, 2018 19:22
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Can Roy's spirit arm emerge from anywhere?  Can he cockpunch a ghost?
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May 2, 2018 21:36
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CourValant posted:
Yeah that made me immediately think of the Lord Marshall from Chronicles of Riddick.
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May 2, 2018 21:47
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Hexenritter posted:Yeah that made me immediately think of the Lord Marshall from Chronicles of Riddick. The who from what?
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May 2, 2018 21:59
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Toughy posted:The who from what? Oh, OH, my dude, go watch it! https://youtu.be/etxQGtbD7i4
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May 2, 2018 22:02
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Hexenritter posted:Oh, OH, my dude, go watch it! I will, but I'm not saying to rip souls from body just like a solid punch to the solar plexus
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May 2, 2018 22:15
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Deadmeat5150 posted:Can Roy's spirit arm emerge from anywhere? I took Roy's missing limb and ghostly arm from a real life phenomenon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_limb It isn't exactly a magic arm. It's Roy's own phantom limb which he uses to get a little more power to his magic and interact with the dead in ways that other Shepherd's can't. I might change it slightly as emerging from his own chest as I don't want it just growing from nowhere. It still behaves as a normal arm though it has no difficulty with moving through solid objects, including his own body. So his arm is always connected at the shoulder, but the surprise of his arm being mostly hidden inside of his own chest as a surprise attack is something I thought was interesting. Toughy posted:That's all great news!! Very excited to see your results! Thank you. I am too. quote:Are Shephard capable but forbidden to or can't touch a living soul. Can't touch a soul inside of a living body or judge them before they're dead. Someone has to be dead before either are possible. I have been thinking about interesting circumstances like if someone dies, their soul is judged and then their body is resuscitated, but I haven't formed anything concrete yet.
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May 2, 2018 22:24
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Toughy posted:I will, but I'm not saying to rip souls from body just like a solid punch to the solar plexus Yeah, I get that, it's just very much in the same vein which is what made me think of it.
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May 2, 2018 22:26
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I guess that means no punches to the balls from a spirit arm that appears from Roy's own crotch. drat.
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May 2, 2018 22:40
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Hexenritter posted:Yeah, I get that, it's just very much in the same vein which is what made me think of it. Just realized that Bucky is one of the officers, can't believe I never watched it
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May 2, 2018 23:04
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Hexenritter posted:Yeah that made me immediately think of the Lord Marshall from Chronicles of Riddick. Dude, I didn't even make that connection until you mentioned it. I had been struggling with why Shepherds are so shunned and reviled until now; they're white hat Necromongers. At their worst, the Necromantic Shepard Empire resembled that movie; ripping living souls out of people, genocide by death magic, obliteration of religion, the works. So, while Roy can do all of these things, its forbidden, and I'd imagine there is a special branch of dedicated Shepherd 'inquisitors' whose jobs is to go around and purge those who still follow the old ways. Toughy posted:I will, but I'm not saying to rip souls from body just like a solid punch to the solar plexus Well, its still a soul gut punch to the soul solar plexus. I'd imagine any direct attack again the soul is 'black hat'. Ice Phisherman posted:Can't touch a soul inside of a living body or judge them before they're dead. Someone has to be dead before either are possible. Ahhh, c'mon, what's shredding one soul (or a billion) between friends?
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May 2, 2018 23:09
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THE THRESHOLD! TAKE US TO THE THRESHOLD! A cadre of Keepers going round hunting necromancers and necro-curious Shepherds sounds both cool and scary, especially if they are trained to use the tools of the enemy.
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May 2, 2018 23:33
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