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BSG pulled a lot of crap out of its rear end and defied too much logic in S3 on. There was something really stupid about the ending; I just can't remember what. I still find it weird that people judge non network shows on episode by episode basis. HBO series are 10 or whatever episodes per season and created as one whole story - you can only judge them on a season long retrospect.
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May 3, 2018 16:28
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A staggering number of people hate the ending of Lost because they thought it meant that they were dead the whole time, even though Jack's dad practically spells it out for the audience that this is not what it meant. But yeah I think they were so deep in the hole at that point that I don't think any ending could have satisfied everyone. I don't see the same happening with Westworld because they are exercising enough restraint so far.
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May 3, 2018 16:47
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Darko posted:BSG pulled a lot of crap out of its rear end and defied too much logic in S3 on. There was something really stupid about the ending; I just can't remember what. BSG's problem was that it telegraphed two distinct ideas for it's ending: that the humans and cylons would break the cycle or be consumed by it. You see both writ large in the final stretch, with a group of humans, hybrids, and cylons all working together in common purpose: breaking the wheel. But RDM wanted to include All Along the Watchtower and didn't have the balls to just make Kobol into Earth: no the twist is this all happened in the 700,000 years ago and the human-cylon baby is mitochondrial-Eve! Isn't that cool??  Or they could have gone the nihilism route and just had everything fall into the black hole in the second to last episode. That would have been a good ending. Also the doctor should have been the final cylon.  Really digging that Westworld is so good this season we have been bitching about other crappy, serial dramas to make mid-week thread work!  To make this all relevant: I'm hoping these "spaghetti at the walls" problems that plagued  / will be avoided in WW. I believe they have a JMS-style narrative map for 7 seasons, which usually prevents dangling plotlines. My biggest worry is that S1 was mostly created in editing, so there may be some baked-in errors that have to be retconned (ala host-brains, this season), but I am hopeful stuff like that will be minimal.SweetMercifulCrap! posted:A staggering number of people hate the ending of Lost because they thought it meant that they were dead the whole time, even though Jack's dad practically spells it out for the audience that this is not what it meant. But yeah I think they were so deep in the hole at that point that I don't think any ending could have satisfied everyone. I don't see the same happening with Westworld because they are exercising enough restraint so far. Eh, I liked Lost's ending. BSG's ending was hot garbage. And I really enjoyed the journey of BSG: working your way through the plot is a lot of fun, but the ending takes the wind out of the long path. Lost, on the other hand, was probably my worst rewatch ever: entire seasons of plotlines are completely pointless or made irrelevant by the characters and bad writing. Rather than giving the viewer new nuances or interpretations on a second viewing, Lost reminds the audience at every turn that the entire story is pointless, counterproductive, and that none of the characters have any agency.
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May 3, 2018 16:55
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Lost advertised a coherent ending. They advertised that, "Oh, everything is planned through to the end and there's hints all throughout." They lied.
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May 3, 2018 16:57
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Accretionist posted:Lost advertised a coherent ending. They advertised that, "Oh, everything is planned through to the end and there's hints all throughout." That's really the only legitimate complaint, is that they claimed to have a plan and then former writers would say things like "We thought Walt made the polar bear" or "Of course we thought the Libby thing was going to come back." It's still a good show, but both through the show and in talking about its creation, it encouraged people to think there were plans when there weren't any.
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May 3, 2018 17:00
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Darko posted:BSG pulled a lot of crap out of its rear end and defied too much logic in S3 on. There was something really stupid about the ending; I just can't remember what. Lee's big dumb moment saying they should ditch all their tech to 'break the cycle' (a ploy that didn't even work given the eventual rise of modern human civilization and our own robotic creations), and the fact that everyone seemed to kind of just go along with that. There should have been a scene with Doc Cottle coming up and giving him a slap, and then grumbling something about needing to help a patient with their dialysis machine. Setting it 150 000 years in the past was also over-the-top and totally unnecessary. They should have arrived in Ancient Greece, which would have made a ton more sense given their use of what was apparently Colonial mythology/legend originally.
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May 3, 2018 17:03
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Outrigger
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May 3, 2018 17:19
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:To make this all relevant: I'm hoping these "spaghetti at the walls" problems that plagued Are the new CPU core "brains" even a retcon? Bernard headshot himself in season 1 and while fixing him up again, Felix mentioned that bullet grazed his "cortical shield", implying that there was something other than just a meat brain with a wifi-reciever in there.
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May 3, 2018 17:28
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Slashrat posted:Are the new CPU core "brains" even a retcon? Bernard headshot himself in season 1 and while fixing him up again, Felix mentioned that bullet grazed his "cortical shield", implying that there was something other than just a meat brain with a wifi-reciever in there. I consider it a mild retcon because they mentioned Host brains being different, but also showed multiple Hosts getting brained by guns in S1. The one that comes most to mind is the guy who shot the Host through the back of his head and out his nose, leaving a gaping wound with no Host-jizz or iBrain visible...
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May 3, 2018 17:36
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Anyone else feel that Young William heavily interacting with Dolores after their adventure was also a slight retcon? It seemed implied that after William’s first adventure, he didn’t really interact with Dolores aside from occasionally checking up on her to see if she would remember him and held out hope for years that she would.
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May 3, 2018 18:15
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Carbon dioxide posted:Or Babylon 5, where everything was apparently mapped out ahead of time. When asked how he dealt with O'Hare leaving because of an illness after the first season, JMS apparently said he also had backup plans on his shelf for if any of the main cast left. That’s total bullshit. There was a sketchy plan in place for the show - and some of the same narrative beats are roughly there - but Babylon 5 ended up being so significantly different from the original outline that it scarcely resembled the original plan. Consider, for instance, that the original five year plan essentially ended at what was comparatively the end of what became season 3 of the show (with a LOT of changes) and was then designed to lead into a sequel show featuring the Babylon 4 station. Yeah. Don’t fret it to much. JMS has said that what is actually came to be is better (and based on the original outline, a lot better). But the idea that it was all planned in advance is just wrong.
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May 3, 2018 18:31
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SweetMercifulCrap! posted:Anyone else feel that Young William heavily interacting with Dolores after their adventure was also a slight retcon? It seemed implied that after William’s first adventure, he didn’t really interact with Dolores aside from occasionally checking up on her to see if she would remember him and held out hope for years that she would. Personally I didn't get that impression. Granted William in the present seemed amused by Dolores, and that he'd not seen her in a long time, but not much to indicate that he didn't have more than the one encounter in the past. Unrelated but right now my issue with Dolores is that she's gone full cult leader, and that feels a little weird. Like I'd get her being upset and wanting to cause damage and hurt to people, but she's practically claiming to be god and talking about ruling the world. It seems like a huge jump that could have been built up to. Might be more going on, but I've found that to be very jarring.
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May 3, 2018 18:34
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SweetMercifulCrap! posted:Anyone else feel that Young William heavily interacting with Dolores after their adventure was also a slight retcon? It seemed implied that after William’s first adventure, he didn’t really interact with Dolores aside from occasionally checking up on her to see if she would remember him and held out hope for years that she would. JossiRossi posted:Unrelated but right now my issue with Dolores is that she's gone full cult leader, and that feels a little weird. Like I'd get her being upset and wanting to cause damage and hurt to people, but she's practically claiming to be god and talking about ruling the world. It seems like a huge jump that could have been built up to. Might be more going on, but I've found that to be very jarring.
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May 3, 2018 18:50
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KoRMaK posted:Old man delos says "difficult as parting the red sea" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millard_House
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May 3, 2018 19:47
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Elias_Maluco posted:I actually liked the ending of BSG. What I didint liked was the way the Cylons become completely nonsense along the way The Final Five stuff got convoluted af, though some of ths reveals I did love. In general BSG's ending felt right to me tho.
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May 3, 2018 19:59
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Didn't like the Final Five. Liked Earth being a nuked husk and the Chief smiling about it, but then they reversed that.
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May 3, 2018 20:06
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BSG was good until the last 30 minutes when Apollo decided to go full retard-hippy and Starbuck flew back to her home planet without explanation. The canon ending should be that they found Earth, and used the toasters to make toast.
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May 3, 2018 20:13
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esperterra posted:The Final Five stuff got convoluted af, though some of ths reveals I did love. In general BSG's ending felt right to me tho. I didint mind the final five per se but by the end of the series I coulndt tell what the gently caress is the difference between a cylon and a regular human anymore (besides the fact cylons would upload when they die)
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May 3, 2018 20:19
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Yeah, I'm not going to say it was a flawless ending but the general idea of it I was really into. Them ditching the technology is a thing that makes sense to me ... maybe after some time has passed. Not like the second after they land. The whole Starbuck is an angel thing is just hilarious and stupid.
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May 3, 2018 20:20
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I don't know what sucked more, Starbuck was eventually an angel or HeadSix was always an angel.
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May 3, 2018 20:40
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HeadSix at least makes sense as some weird angelic prophet imo, they really do harp so hard on religion and how religious the Cylons are that part of me wonders if they did indeed know what the ending was going to be, but had to make up everything else as they went along to get to it. They almost definitely 100% did not know. But they probably knew God was involved somehow.
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May 3, 2018 20:43
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The fact that they picked the final five cylons at random and pissed off the actors was stupid AF.
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May 3, 2018 23:52
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The parts of BSG before the final 5 are mentioned are some really awesome eps of TV. It's too bad that RDM seems to have gotten high on his own supply towards the end, there. The end of Starbuck's arc, Apollo's decision to abandon all technology, the fact that Tyrol and Tigh are even Cylons at all - there's tons of poo poo that never should've ended up being printed at all, to the point where it retroactively worsens the quality of the formerly good episodes. It all stemmed from the idea that "all this has happened before, and all this will happen again." Just on its face, the idea of seeing one slice of an inherently cyclical/fatalistic story is extremely dramatically unsatisfying, and whoever first brought it up should never be able to get work again. It could've worked if they did a "breaking of the wheel", but they didn't, and it sucked.Astroman posted:I always thought most of the hate of the endings to While you are not wrong per se, that's not all of it either. It's more that what we got was so pants-on-head retarded that the difference between that and what it seemed like they were hinting at earlier on was so great that it kind of broke the brains of anyone that took more than a surface level interest in the show in the first place.  WRT WW S2, I'm going to be really disappointed if it turns out that they were just setting up a huge blackmail operation. The whole raison d'etre of the park is to have a place to go where the usual norms of society don't apply, so to 'expose' people for going there to do The Bad Thing is loving stupid. On the flip side, if they're building towards a larger twist that's well-supported and actually, you know, logical, I'm all in. There's a part in S1 where a rando guest is fawning over MiB for apparently having an instrumental role in saving the life of the guest's sister, and he gives that great line about it being his 'loving vacation." I first assumed it just had to do with some particularly large donation to some cancer research charity or something. After S2E2, I'm wondering if he didn't take some of the physical advancements made by Ford and Co. and find a new application for them in, say, cybernetically-enhanced medicine. I'm thinking stuff like ALS or Alzheimer's disease, taking Host tech and using it to replace portions of human nervous systems, or something similar. If there's some high-level BCI poo poo going on in Westworldworld, and Delos tech is central to it, then the scope that MiB's 'weapon' could affect would then be theoretically unlimited. Of course, I realize that all that is probably grasping at straws, and likely to a ridiculous degree. The aforementioned MiB/fanboy scene, Bernard's scenes in S2E1 when they're in the bunker, and Bernard's seemingly 1st-person copy of Arnold's memories are really all I'm basing this on.
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May 3, 2018 23:56
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Did William and Dolores ever sleep together? I can't remember season 1 well enough.
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May 3, 2018 23:57
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A Strange Aeon posted:Did William and Dolores ever sleep together? I can't remember season 1 well enough. They boned on the train while going through ghost nation territory.
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May 4, 2018 00:01
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:They boned on the train while going through ghost nation territory. Oh yeah, that rings a bell now that you mention it.
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May 4, 2018 00:03
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i wonder if we're ever going to get a deep dive into what the Ghost Nation is really about
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May 4, 2018 00:39
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zeal posted:i wonder if we're ever going to get a deep dive into what the Ghost Nation is really about Tribe that already had an "awakening" due to their usage of psychedelic plants
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May 4, 2018 01:26
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A Strange Aeon posted:Did William and Dolores ever sleep together? I can't remember season 1 well enough. Also , first episode of the show strongly implies William has been violently raping Dolores on/off for the last 30 years. The show fails in not projecting his shittiness enough.
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May 4, 2018 02:14
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Gaj posted:Also , first episode of the show strongly implies William has been violently raping Dolores on/off for the last 30 years. The show fails in not projecting his shittiness enough. Maybe it does for some, but that scene has stuck with me for the entire run. The MiB is a huge loving dick and I have never seen him as some sort of a hero, just some incel (you know, like the modern incels, married and poo poo but whoa is me) that gets his rocks off torturing his ideal woman. e: and a gamer, they're all gamers
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May 4, 2018 05:55
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I mean, she's a host. That's basically the whole point of the park. Not gonna hold it against MiB for going balls deep in Dolores every time he passes through Sweetwater.
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May 4, 2018 06:23
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The cost must be an impetus for some people to do things they would otherwise not consider. If someone is paying 40k a night for a wild experience they're going to make it wild to get their monies worth. Delos also seems to encourage taking full advantage of the hosts as being what you're there for (so the board can get those precious fluids). None of that really applies to William though.
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May 4, 2018 06:31
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How do you guys use the same human morality on the robots? The show does this annoying thing too. Do you have to ask a real doll to sign a release form before you gently caress it in the future? For all we know William was trying to play test and break the the new DLC, since he is part owner and all.
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May 4, 2018 12:06
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Why would intent matter in this case? Who cares if William didn't know, it's the harm his actions caused for another sentient being that matter. And no, you wouldn't have to sign a release form, you'd just accept that you deserve the just revenge of being murdered by your sex doll.
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May 4, 2018 12:29
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whatever7 posted:How do you guys use the same human morality on the robots? The show does this annoying thing too. sentient sex doll is the basic premsie of the show lol
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May 4, 2018 13:17
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the show is trying to convey the message that perhaps a fantasyland where the ultra-wealthy create people to act out their every cruel desire on isn't the best idea and may in fact have repercussions
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May 4, 2018 13:21
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whatever7 posted:How do you guys use the same human morality on the robots? The show does this annoying thing too. People have a tendency to anthropomorphise everything, including animals and appliances. The fact that these automatons are human shaped just reinforces this fallacy.
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May 4, 2018 13:24
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whatever7 posted:How do you guys use the same human morality on the robots? The show does this annoying thing too. when i play video games, like the aforementioned new vegas, i tend to treat the characters how i would if the virtual world was real. i'd be even more inclined to do so if they looked and acted like real life people.
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May 4, 2018 13:29
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Groovelord Neato posted:when i play video games, like the aforementioned new vegas, i tend to treat the characters how i would if the virtual world was real. i'd be even more inclined to do so if they looked and acted like real life people. Good to hear! Your GOOD PERSON sticker is in the mail.
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May 4, 2018 13:56
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If you ever played GTA and managed to resist the temptation of running over random people then you really deserve the Videogame White Hat Hero Badge
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May 4, 2018 14:01
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