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DeimosRising
Oct 17, 2005

¡Hola SEA!


Autechresaint posted:

I could believe lucas is one, just based on the character back story for indiana Jones that had him having sex with an 11-13 yo marian.

Do you suspect he’s a mass murderer because Indiana Jones shoots a lot of Nazis?

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peer
Jan 17, 2004

this is not what I wanted

DeimosRising posted:

Do you suspect he’s a mass murderer because Indiana Jones shoots a lot of Nazis?

fuckin lol dude

DeimosRising
Oct 17, 2005

¡Hola SEA!


peer posted:

fuckin lol dude

It was a weird idea and a weird conversation (between Lucas and Spielberg) but “considered writing a character as a pedophile” is not evidence of being a pedophile.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007

Just a reminder that they didn’t just “consider” it, that poo poo made it into the movie.

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

SHINee's back




Uncle Boogeyman posted:

Just a reminder that they didn’t just “consider” it, that poo poo made it into the movie.

iirc in the finished product she was 16 during their former relationship, but yeah.

I personally don't think any of this a pedophile makes, but it's definitely skeazy. Also how much of that is Lucas and how much of that is maybe some of the pulp stories he drew from? I love me some pulp so I'm not super well versed in it beyond radio plays, but maybe they were skeazy too.

Seems like making a mountain out of a mole hill at any rate.

DeimosRising
Oct 17, 2005

¡Hola SEA!


Uncle Boogeyman posted:

Just a reminder that they didn’t just “consider” it, that poo poo made it into the movie.

It’s not specific but she does say she was “a child”. You could read that figuratively but he definitely took advantage of her and is a creep at minimum

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

I think the story is that Lucas wanted Marion to be younger than she was because for some reason he thought it would funny/interesting if she was REALLY young and it was just blatantly a sex crime. Instead they agreed to age her up a little so that you have to like stop and do some head math for a second to realize how creepy it is.

The whole thing seems less "Lucas is a pedophile" and more "Lucas is a goon who kind of hates his audience" to me.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007

esperterra posted:

iirc in the finished product she was 16 during their former relationship, but yeah.

I personally don't think any of this a pedophile makes, but it's definitely skeazy. Also how much of that is Lucas and how much of that is maybe some of the pulp stories he drew from? I love me some pulp so I'm not super well versed in it beyond radio plays, but maybe they were skeazy too.

Seems like making a mountain out of a mole hill at any rate.

Oh old pulp stories are SUPER skeezy. At least the Indy movies avoided the blatant racism until the second one.

But yeah, “it was a different time” always feels like a cop out but... it was a different time.

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

SHINee's back




Also fair warning I don't find the relationship super gross in the finished story b/c lbr I may be gay af but when I was 16 I woulda died for a 20something Indiana Jones to have an illicit affair with me, in fact Marion and Indy's back and forth is a big part of why I love Raiders so much. It's a bit of a weird footnote on the whole thing, but Ford and Allen killed it and they both rule. Also it's fiction and lmao it's not like Indiana Jones is exactly supposed to be a good guy.

Woulda been really weird af if she were as young as initially pitched, though, and probably wouldn't have landed at all unless through some miracle of black comedy, which would have been pretty hard to weave into the tone of the rest of the movie unless the entire product came out differently.

and Lucas is indeedy goony af

e: ^^ yeah racial and sexism stuff I am def well versed in when it comes to pulp/etc, I was like born and bred on radio plays but the more sexual aspects of a pulp tale were probably hella toned down in those due to the nature of listening in with your family

DeimosRising
Oct 17, 2005

¡Hola SEA!


Uncle Boogeyman posted:

Oh old pulp stories are SUPER skeezy. At least the Indy movies avoided the blatant racism until the second one.

But yeah, “it was a different time” always feels like a cop out but... it was a different time.

The nastiest part of their discussion is when they discuss her coming on to him and the plain implication is how hard that would be to turn down :puke:

The conversation, both specifically and the general discussion at the time, just assumed this super pervy male perspective as a given

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

I don't think anyone really finds the Indy/Marion relationship creepy at first glance. Its definitely one of the biggest keys to the film. Its just when you stop and think about it for a little bit you go "Oh, jeez, Indy. What the gently caress were you doing sleeping with teenagers?"

But like the movie also goes out of its way to show us that Indy's college students are fawning all over him and if he was a total creeper he could be cleaning up on inappropriately young women. Instead it presents him as being kind of put out by it and literally jumping out a window to get away so he could go play with old poo poo. So I don't think there's some deep seeded character trait there, it was just Lucas being weird and pulpy in a way that flew in 1981.

Carthag Tuek
Oct 15, 2005

Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
slægt skal følge slægters gang



esperterra posted:

Also fair warning I don't find the relationship super gross in the finished story b/c lbr I may be gay af but when I was 16 I woulda died for a 20something Indiana Jones to have an illicit affair with me, in fact Marion and Indy's back and forth is a big part of why I love Raiders so much. It's a bit of a weird footnote on the whole thing, but Ford and Allen killed it and they both rule. Also it's fiction and lmao it's not like Indiana Jones is exactly supposed to be a good guy.

Woulda been really weird af if she were as young as initially pitched, though, and probably wouldn't have landed at all unless through some miracle of black comedy, which would have been pretty hard to weave into the tone of the rest of the movie unless the entire product came out differently.

and Lucas is indeedy goony af

e: ^^ yeah racial and sexism stuff I am def well versed in when it comes to pulp/etc, I was like born and bred on radio plays but the more sexual aspects of a pulp tale were probably hella toned down in those due to the nature of listening in with your family

Way I see it, it's okay for a teenager to have a horny crush on an adult but it's super weird and gross for an adult to reciprocate. That's regardless of genders/sexuality, obvs.

I mean it's pretty hot to fantasize about being Abner Ravenwood's teenage son/daughter and having older grad student Indy swoop in and seduce you, but the vice versa is skeezy as gently caress.

As for what Lucas was thinking, I have no idea. I can read the transcript both ways.

Tart Kitty
Dec 17, 2016

Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

Most of the stuff that is broadly considered the face of pulp - The Shadow, Conan, Doc Savage - are pretty tame in terms of content, but those stories only account for a fraction of the genre. A lot of the bulk of it was pretty lurid with so-called “cannibal stories,” abundant Nazi-sploitation, and a positively bonkers amount of BDSM content, both coded and explicit.

It’s fair to assume Lucas was a fan of the genre, and by that I mean all of the genre. Indiana Jones is basically a greatest hits of the pulp medium, so it’s not surprising he’d want to put in some skeezy poo poo as well.

Does that mean it was anywhere near at all a good idea? gently caress no.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007

I wouldn’t necessarily call the Conan stuff tame, I think you can draw a straight line between that and Game of Thrones, with everything that implies

Tart Kitty
Dec 17, 2016

Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

Fair. I just put it in a different category than the other stuff I mentioned. It’s definitely got some rough stuff in it, but it’s ostensibly under the guise of being an adventure story, as opposed to a lot of the genre, which was more or less flat out porn.

Nissin Cup Nudist
Sep 3, 2011

Sleep with one eye open

We're off to Gritty Gritty land




How old was Indy supposed to be when he banging teens

I never saw Raiders, just Last Crusade

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

SHINee's back




Krankenstyle posted:

Way I see it, it's okay for a teenager to have a horny crush on an adult but it's super weird and gross for an adult to reciprocate. That's regardless of genders/sexuality, obvs.

Oh, agreed. I just mean it's not such a bad thing depending on which context you view it from, and personally due to my fond memories of thinking it was so sexy and cool of Marion and Indy when I was a kid I have a bit of rose-tinted vision when looking back at it.

But a bunch of adult men coming up with it is inherently p gross whether you view it hot af when you're younger or not. But then the context of how they came up w/ it matters, too, and we prob don't know the whole story so w/e

e: ^^^ mid to late 20s I think? honestly maybe even early 30s I can't remember just how old he's supposed to be in Raiders, just that like 5 or 6 years had passed? I think since their affair

Carthag Tuek
Oct 15, 2005

Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
slægt skal følge slægters gang



Nissin Cup Nudist posted:

How old was Indy supposed to be when he banging teens

I never saw Raiders, just Last Crusade

canon as per wiki:

quote:

Marion entered into a relationship with Indiana Jones during this time (when she was 15, according to the novelization of Raiders of the Lost Ark). Jones abruptly left the Ravenwoods in 1926; Marion was about 16 or 17 years old when the relationship finished, and Jones was 27, ten years her senior.

[....]

[Karen] Allen came up with her own backstory for the character, such as what happened to her mother, her romance with Indiana at age 15 or 16, and her time in Nepal; Spielberg described it as "an entirely different movie".[3]

the so-called Kasdan/Lucas/Spielberg "spitballing" transcript:

quote:

Lawrence Kasdan: I like it if they already had a relationship at one point. Because then you don't have to build it.
George Lucas: I was thinking that this old guy could have been his mentor. He could have known this little girl when she was just a kid. Had an affair with her when she was eleven.
Kasdan: And he was forty-two.
Lucas: He hasn't seen her in twelve years. Now she's twenty-two. It's a real strange relationship.
Steven Spielberg: She had better be older than twenty-two.
Lucas: He's thirty-five, and he knew her ten years ago when he was twenty-five and she was only twelve.
Lucas: It would be amusing to make her slightly young at the time.
Spielberg: And promiscuous. She came onto him.
Lucas: Fifteen is right on the edge. I know it's an outrageous idea, but it is interesting. Once she's sixteen or seventeen it's not interesting anymore. But if she was fifteen and he was twenty-five and they actually had an affair the last time they met. And she was madly in love with him and he...
Spielberg: She has pictures of him.

I forgot how into it they all are, but then again it can just be them bullshitting about the story and character motivations and such, even just egging each other on for laughs. Whatever, it p much made it into the movie so it's there at least somewhat.

Do watch Raiders though, it's by far the best of them all.

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

SHINee's back




Raiders is prob my favourite movie of all time. Like put a gun to my head and make me choose I'd probably land on Raiders.













or Beaches.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

by VideoGames
Look I’m just gonna ask a gross question:

Would you inherently know it was wrong to try and date a teenager as a 20-something adult if it weren’t very explicitly against the law? Have you ever stopped before hooking up with someone in the middle of it to check their age? (I have, it’s always the worst conversation lol)

Like obviously mentally and emotionally it’s a world of different difference but you don’t notice someone’s personality bounce gently when they walk so that’s not really helpful.

Raiders takes place in 1936 so they dated in the, um, 20’s when the age of consent (according to Wikipedia) was between 10-14 in most states and as low as 7 in Delaware (?????)

Tart Kitty
Dec 17, 2016

Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

I don't think Raiders was striving to be a realistic depiction of its era, what with the head-exploding bible ghosts and all.

DC Murderverse
Nov 10, 2016

"Tell that to Zod's snapped neck!"

T minus three posts until “it’s not pedophilia it’s ephibophilia”

Carthag Tuek
Oct 15, 2005

Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
slægt skal følge slægters gang



one time when i was in my early/mid 20s i drunkenly made out with a girl who was in her late teens and even at the time i had a nagging voice in the back of my head saying "dude, this is too wide an age spread"

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

SHINee's back




I mean

I live in a country where the age of consent is 16 and was 14 for a huge chunk of my life so that might skew my views on what's inherently inappropriate or not. I also grew up in a small town and gay so my personal experiences toward dating or loving older people are that it's p common and usually p normal. 14 was always way too loving low tho jfc Canada why'd it take so long to up it lmfao

Personally I do think that there's a very small percentage of sixteen year olds who are ready for a relationship or sex or whatever with someone older. But that percentage is super small and they should stick to dating their own age, anyway. Or at the very least a super loving small age gap. A twenty-seven year old should not be dating a teenager. Should they be attracted to one? Welp human nature, y'all. But they shouldn't act on it lol, like even if the sixteen year old is hella mature/etc like, can you seriously not find someone your own age tho?

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

Krankenstyle posted:

I forgot how into it they all are, but then again it can just be them bullshitting about the story and character motivations and such, even just egging each other on for laughs. Whatever, it p much made it into the movie so it's there at least somewhat.

Yeah, it plays to me like they just tossing ideas around and being a little silly about it. I've been in rooms like that (obviously nothing on that level) and its like just sitting around with drinks and tossing poo poo at the wall to work up your ideas. Things can get weird.

To me its clear Lucas wanted Marion to be MUCH younger than Indy because he just wants it to be really "provocative" and pulpy while Spielberg kind of clearly wanted to level it off so it wouldn't be quite as weird. Then they clearly eventually got from "Marion was 11 and he was 42" to "Marion was 16-17 and Indy was 27". But it feels more like Lucas just going for the pulpiest thing he can get to and Spielberg pulling back.

Like I said, I've been in that kind of room before so it actually sounds kind of familiar. "WE SHOULD HAVE XXX!"/"Ok, that's a little difficult.. lets just do Y" Creative types go all over the place.

Although obviously there's an element there of "different time" where "16" is "no big deal." And that's creepy, but shouldn't be super surprising. And is still just a fictional character, to the best of our knowledge Lucas wasn't trolling teenagers in courthouses.

Hat Thoughts
Jul 27, 2012

Bust Rodd posted:

Look I’m just gonna ask a gross question:

Would you inherently know it was wrong to try and date a teenager as a 20-something adult if it weren’t very explicitly against the law? Have you ever stopped before hooking up with someone in the middle of it to check their age? (I have, it’s always the worst conversation lol)

Like obviously mentally and emotionally it’s a world of different difference but you don’t notice someone’s personality bounce gently when they walk so that’s not really helpful.

Raiders takes place in 1936 so they dated in the, um, 20’s when the age of consent (according to Wikipedia) was between 10-14 in most states and as low as 7 in Delaware (?????)

Smh Bust Rodd

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

SHINee's back




Yeah the most important thing to remember is it's loving fiction, who cares. It'd be different if we were talking about Lucas dating a 16yo when he was 27.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

by VideoGames
I promise I’m not gonna bait anyone into a pedo/ephebophile thing, im 30 and don’t want anyone younger than 24-25 because I like talking to people, but if you’ve never been hitting on someone at a party/bar/club and suddenly realized “oh poo poo you’re drinking like a 19 year old BECAUSE you’re 19, yikes” then maybe get out more I guess?

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

esperterra posted:

Yeah the most important thing to remember is it's loving fiction, who cares. It'd be different if we were talking about Lucas dating a 16yo when he was 27.

I mean there IS an argument to be made about fiction helping set and justify societal standards and what kind of responsibility filmmakers have to that end. But we're analyzing the decisions made by filmmakers nearly 40 years ago so its not like this is going to be reinforcing any messed up standards.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

Bust Rodd posted:

I promise I’m not gonna bait anyone into a pedo/ephebophile thing, im 30 and don’t want anyone younger than 24-25 because I like talking to people, but if you’ve never been hitting on someone at a party/bar/club and suddenly realized “oh poo poo you’re drinking like a 19 year old BECAUSE you’re 19, yikes” then maybe get out more I guess?

Generally speaking if you're hanging out at the same place as a lot of people who are age inappropriate for you then that's often one of the best signs that you should move on and go somewhere else. Like there's a point where Matthew McCoughney's character in Dazed and Confused is cool and not creepy still hanging with the kids from his high school, but its passed by the time we meet him and he still hasn't moved on.

Timby
Dec 23, 2006

Your mother!

Bust Rodd posted:

I promise I’m not gonna bait anyone into a pedo/ephebophile thing, im 30 and don’t want anyone younger than 24-25 because I like talking to people, but if you’ve never been hitting on someone at a party/bar/club and suddenly realized “oh poo poo you’re drinking like a 19 year old BECAUSE you’re 19, yikes” then maybe get out more I guess?

This is an insanely stupid hill to make your stand on.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

by VideoGames
It’s even stupider to presume someone is arguing in favor of something that they aren’t, but I understand that reading is hard in 2018

Carthag Tuek
Oct 15, 2005

Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
slægt skal følge slægters gang



actually bust rodd is right. as a 30 year old ive def hit on a 19 year old and once realizing their age thought ugh goddamn. see also above

Carthag Tuek fucked around with this message at 02:11 on May 5, 2018

Nissin Cup Nudist
Sep 3, 2011

Sleep with one eye open

We're off to Gritty Gritty land




Well thats kinda creepy there Lucas

:(

Grognan
Jan 23, 2007

by Fluffdaddy
Lucas's bad ideas having to be reigned in by other people with creative control sounds like the most realistic thing here.


edit: This is not saying he was a pedo, more like Lucas is full of ideas and he needed a lotta editorial oversight about the poo poo he wanted to put into anything.

Grognan fucked around with this message at 06:35 on May 5, 2018

Kangra
May 7, 2012

STAC Goat posted:

I think the story is that Lucas wanted Marion to be younger than she was because for some reason he thought it would funny/interesting if she was REALLY young and it was just blatantly a sex crime. Instead they agreed to age her up a little so that you have to like stop and do some head math for a second to realize how creepy it is.

The whole thing seems less "Lucas is a pedophile" and more "Lucas is a goon who kind of hates his audience" to me.

I'm fairly sure I've heard an interview with him where he says pretty much that. It was something he wanted the audience to be disgusted by if they thought about it for a minute, but he also seems to delight in the idea that most people won't notice it; he felt it was 'funny'.

That does say a lot about his sense of humor and what he thinks/was considered appropriate at the time. I do think they were deliberately doing it as a reaction to the stuff they were basing the movies on. But it shows a real lack of awareness of who that can affect. By way of comparison, they made an absurd over-the-top depiction of 'India' in the second film as a tribute/parody of the way they'd been depicted in the past. But that still led to a lot of people in the US thinking that Indians love to eat monkey brains.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
It is a pretty good joke seeing as Harrison Ford has had a series of leading women much younger than himself and married someone 22 years younger.

And Hollywood, as a whole, has absolutely no idea how women actually age. If anything, it works as a joke about how creepy most hollywood romances are if you think about them.

Tsyni
Sep 1, 2004
Lipstick Apathy
This thread is pretty loving creepy

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013
🍀👽🆚🪖🏋

Raiders of the Cradle.

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Macdeo Lurjtux
Jul 5, 2011

BRRREADSTOOORRM!

Snowman_McK posted:

It is a pretty good joke seeing as Harrison Ford has had a series of leading women much younger than himself and married someone 22 years younger.

And once threw a poo poo fit when one of those much much younger co stars was a lesbian.

Though to be fair, that wasn’t about his personal believes but him thinking the extra controversy would sink a film that needed all the help it could get.

Macdeo Lurjtux fucked around with this message at 13:33 on May 5, 2018

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