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Nbsd idk who hurt you but your points are pretty stupid and don't echo any remote job I've ever had. But nice crusade and all Like monon said, good communication tooling is inherently remote friendly. It's cool you think interruptions are good (they aren't) but they can happen just as easily with chat and video. Remote requires IRL interaction occasionally, but not so work can get done, but so you can build more familiarity and trust and talk about not work, or work at the macro scale. And finally lol at extroversion being the main resource you sell at a job. What does that even mean? Talking to human beings at work is not an extrovert/introvert thing. There's another axis and it's more about being a drooling stupid rear end in a top hat, like a shut in weeaboo, or an obnoxious dudebro.
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May 6, 2018 14:43
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:this is pretty loving key for this particular thread agree that CoL in middle america is not vastly different than the coasts, the rent thing is blown wayyyyyy out of proportion, there are a lot of other things people spend money on and they vary less, or not at all. but you completely misunderstand remote comp. it is a giant loving red flag if your remote job comps you based on where you live. because of what we just both agreed on that CoL is not as wildly variant as people like to trot out -- there are a lot of employers that understand this (and plenty that don't). you also misunderstand remote work in general: you say its inefficient or less productive and also assert remote employees are competing with whoever-is-cheapest offshoring type work. one of those things is optional, and the other is causally linked to the first. guess which is which. your entire thesis boils down to 'if you hire bad people and have bad communication tooling and processes work is actually not very efficient' well no poo poo. IRL gives you a bit of latitude for hiring bad people and having bad communication tooling and processes, but that's loving stupid anyway, and you will still have a bad time, even if you get 5% more play in 'how bad can we be without overt impact'.
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May 6, 2018 15:33
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to give nbsd the benefit of the doubt, the version of remote work where offshoring at lowest cost isn't the usual desired outcome is a recent thing. and every company i've seen does a cost of living adjustment for your salary, where have you seen otherwise? though that can be very different from pegging salary to the local market rate for software developers, which is another difference between hiring remote and offshoring.
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May 6, 2018 17:02
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the trick is to start with them on-site or in an expensive area, and then move out to a cheap place and work remote. many employers won't have the guts to cut your salary, they'll just keep it flat for years instead, but still higher than if you had a CoL-adjusted salary to begin with and then got many promotions (I didn't actually do this, but it was somewhat common pattern for bay area coworkers I had)
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May 6, 2018 17:32
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MononcQc posted:the trick is to start with them on-site or in an expensive area, and then move out to a cheap place and work remote. many employers won't have the guts to cut your salary, they'll just keep it flat for years instead, but still higher than if you had a CoL-adjusted salary to begin with and then got many promotions A lot of my friends did this when they moved back to new orleans. Can confirm pro strat
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May 6, 2018 17:33
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ill bet you gotta actually be integral to the company before trying that tho or they’ll just dump you
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May 6, 2018 17:51
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Col adjustments lol. I thought being able to pull in the figures while living wherever was why people worked remote, practically the whole point in fact.
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May 6, 2018 17:53
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Pollyanna posted:ill bet you gotta actually be integral to the company before trying that tho or they’ll just dump you you gotta be pretty integral to be the one person to pull it at a company without remote folks, but if you work at a remote-friendly company it's fairly common because those tend not to see remote employees as second class employees to begin with.
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May 6, 2018 17:58
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qhat posted:Col adjustments lol. I thought being able to pull in the figures while living wherever was why people worked remote, practically the whole point in fact. why would a company pass up the chance to cheap out
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May 6, 2018 18:02
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Pollyanna posted:why would a company pass up the chance to cheap out Because you get what you pay for.
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May 6, 2018 18:04
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qhat posted:Col adjustments lol. I thought being able to pull in the figures while living wherever was why people worked remote, practically the whole point in fact. Apple does it. It's p common because this is the United States of America.
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May 6, 2018 18:06
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There's a oft-unspoken first step to making more money, and it's needing more money. If you're single in West Virginia and work remotely, you'll not be losing hair over the fact your labor is compensated for a song because you enjoy a high quality of life. Move to NYC and squirt out a couple of kids; suddenly you'll be a lot more creative in how craft your career advancement and more confident when you ask for higher-than-offered dollar amounts.
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May 6, 2018 18:21
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jit bull transpile posted:Apple does it. It's p common because this is the United States of America. everywhere does it. mononcqc gave an example of how to get around it because most companies won't cut your salary on a move (though its more likely if you switch countries). the difference is the good places pay you a % of the rate in SF/Seattle/NYC, and not the rate you'd normally get in wherever the heck you are.
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May 6, 2018 18:26
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Mao Zedong Thot posted:agree that CoL in middle america is not vastly different than the coasts, the rent thing is blown wayyyyyy out of proportion, there are a lot of other things people spend money on and they vary less, or not at all. GitLab's workforce is fully remote, and they put their entire employee handbook online, which was pretty interesting. Apparently they pay based on where you live, and they include a git repo with all their scaling factors. Apparently if you move some where cheaper, they dock your pay. It looked like New York City is high CoL according to them, but Boston is at the national average. quote:At the time of the location update, we will take into consideration your new metro region when making a salary offer for continued employment. https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-operations/global-compensation/ At the very least, at least interesting to see what one company is doing in practice.
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May 6, 2018 18:51
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qhat posted:Because you get what you pay for.
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May 6, 2018 18:56
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cheque_some posted:GitLab's workforce is fully remote, and they put their entire employee handbook online, which was pretty interesting. Apparently they pay based on where you live, and they include a git repo with all their scaling factors. Apparently if you move some where cheaper, they dock your pay. It looked like New York City is high CoL according to them, but Boston is at the national average. yeah gitlab does that, so does buffer. they're both companies in love with themselves to a fault that i would never work at too. lol at that fuckin quote about moving tired: i'm providing the same value to the company wired: THINK OF THE GLOBAL ECONOMY ACTUALLY IT MAKES TOTAL SENSE 
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May 6, 2018 18:59
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the more i think about it, the funnier it gets they couldn't even be assed to come up with a reason other than 'gently caress you' so just assert that actually if you think about it its fair <exercise left to reader> tho honestly, it is fair, because i would just get another job that didnt do that so whatever gently caress them
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May 6, 2018 19:05
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they just want everyone to pretend to live in NYC and volunteer to pay NYC taxes
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May 6, 2018 19:12
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here's the buffer calculator if you wanted to find out how much of a haircut you'd have to take to live in the same place https://buffer.com/salary/director-of-engineering-systems/high i appreciate the honesty in telling me I'd get paid 70% less. that takes courage
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May 6, 2018 19:19
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qhat posted:Col adjustments lol. I thought being able to pull in the figures while living wherever was why people worked remote, practically the whole point in fact. You can still pull in dece figgies it just might not be what your peers in a really expensive city make. To put semi realistic numbers on it, say you have some employees making 120k in a place like New Orleans, while the same employee makes 160k in SF. 120k is enough to buy a really nice house in New Orleans and live a pretty good life, its also at the upper end of the salary spectrum, which means the employee is gonna be pretty loyal. Meanwhile, 160k isn't poo poo in SF and you'll never be able to buy a house. At the end of the day they know they just have to pay you at the upper end of the tech salaries in the area. Maybe its not fair but you're not gonna do anything about it.
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May 6, 2018 19:41
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FamDav posted:here's the buffer calculator if you wanted to find out how much of a haircut you'd have to take to live in the same place Those salaries seem pretty low across the board...
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May 6, 2018 19:43
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ADINSX posted:Those salaries seem pretty low across the board... both of them are targeting median salary in SF for the position.
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May 6, 2018 19:47
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FamDav posted:both of them are targeting median salary in SF for the position. I was looking at the software/senior software developer salaries. Idk what directors usually make
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May 6, 2018 19:48
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ADINSX posted:You can still pull in dece figgies it just might not be what your peers in a really expensive city make. If that's the logic then just pay some serf in India to do your coding, it'll be cheap as hell. Just don't give them anything important because they'll probably gently caress it up. Just like someone you're paying in New Orleans for half the salary.
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May 6, 2018 20:06
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ADINSX posted:I was looking at the software/senior software developer salaries. Idk what directors usually make the two red flags are: targeting across all companies as opposed to a set of peer companies that you want to remain competitive with. there’s a lot of people with your job title equivalent that are getting paid awful wages. also, median salary and what good devs are paid do not (and often are not) the same number. targeting median. the only people who are enticed by your salary are the ones making worse than average salary. if you want to compete for good people, you need to offer better than median.
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May 6, 2018 20:14
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qhat posted:If that's the logic then just pay some serf in India to do your coding, it'll be cheap as hell. Just don't give them anything important because they'll probably gently caress it up. Just like someone you're paying in New Orleans for half the salary. seems like there's a trend here that most western companies are learning about china as well: you get what you pay for.
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May 6, 2018 20:15
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Your salary is directly representative of how your company weighs up the risk vs reward of hiring you and very little to do with cost of living beyond what you yourself are willing to put up with, although they might very well use it as a convenient negotiating platform. Think about it like this, if you said no to that cost of living adjustment, the company will probably rescind their offer. Why do you think that is? It ultimately comes down to two things and two things only: 1) They view you, the remote worker, as a higher risk. 2) They do not expect you to produce the same value as an onsite employee. Both reasons together mean they do not think it is cost effective to hire you. Remote workers are inherently less valuable than local workers. Maybe they'll dress it up as cost of living or whatever, but that's the name of the game and the same rules apply to remote workers that apply to some peon in the third world. qhat fucked around with this message at 20:25 on May 6, 2018 |
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May 6, 2018 20:23
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Mao Zedong Thot posted:yeah gitlab does that, so does buffer. they're both companies in love with themselves to a fault that i would never work at too. still havent gotten over the old gitlab logo, gotta be pretty full of yourself to go with this: 
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May 6, 2018 20:58
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a lot of companies will always try to save money however they can. see: startups buying a ping pong table and nerf guns instead of handing out shares, handing out shares instead of money even when they know they're out of runway, or getting beer on tap in lieu of health insurance. gitlab affords to pay employees living in cheaper areas less because they're a company building tech products employees believe in and will line up to work cheaper for because they like it, the way videogame companies can make folks work overtime more than anyone because there's a million people waiting for the same job at any conditions. Don't expect gifts or decency where none is required. It has little to be related with expected value you bring to the table and everything with what prospective employees will accept to let them get away with. MononcQc fucked around with this message at 21:12 on May 6, 2018 |
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May 6, 2018 21:00
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hobbesmaster posted:they just want everyone to pretend to live in NYC and volunteer to pay NYC taxes i wouldnt expect them to be earning NY income tho? or does NY not give a gently caress
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May 6, 2018 21:01
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ADINSX posted:Those salaries seem pretty low across the board... FamDav posted:both of them are targeting median salary in SF for the position. I thought the idea was that most salaries capped out at ~150-175, and psuedo-liquid benefits started making up the majority of your compensation after that point. Options w/o vesting requirements, stock, etc.
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May 6, 2018 21:16
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Mao Zedong Thot posted:the more i think about it, the funnier it gets tbf the explanation did go on, but I didn't post it all because it's a lot of words quote:At the onset, this practice sounds harsh when moving to a lower paid region. One might argue that it seems unfair for the organization to pay someone less for the same work in the same role, regardless of where they go. However, if you look at it from another angle for a minute and compare this practice to what most companies do, it should make more sense. For example, say you work for a company with physical locations and say they haven't accepted that remote work is as productive as coming into the office yet. If you wanted to pack up and move to a location where they did not have a physical site, you would have no alternative but to resign and seek new employment in your new location. You would find quickly that companies in the area pay at local employment market rates. The nice thing about them posting all their polices publically is you can avoid it if they would drive you crazy before you start Like they go on and on about how they'll reimburse you for all your equipment for your home office EXCEPT FOR WINDOWS COMPUTERS because "git doesn't work on Windows and PCs get lots of viruses" or something, which just sounds like something an apple fan would say in 2006
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May 6, 2018 21:22
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Saving money on foosball tables isn't the same thing as saving money on salary, because with salary you are paying for the very thing that is going to make you money. It doesn't matter if you're paying 50k or 300k, if you get a good return on investment then it's worth it every time. When a company is thinking about a negotiating platform, if they aren't thinking exclusively about the ROI when deciding their limits, then they are not thinking cost effectively. If they're reject you because of some drivel about CoL, then perhaps they just don't value your labor, or maybe most people applying for that job just bend over while they make the company money an order of magnitude higher than what they pay.
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May 6, 2018 21:24
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qhat posted:Your salary is directly representative of how your company weighs up the risk vs reward of hiring you and very little to do with cost of living beyond what you yourself are willing to put up with, although they might very well use it as a convenient negotiating platform. Think about it like this, if you said no to that cost of living adjustment, the company will probably rescind their offer. Why do you think that is? It ultimately comes down to two things and two things only: this somewhat gets at why firm scaling by cost of living is so crazy to me -- in theory they're paying you what youre worth to them, not what your expenses are. i can't expect to go to my manager and get anything from 'i need a raise because i bought an expensive boat' other than a hearty chuckle. likewise it would be ridiculous for my manager to say 'i heard you're living in a studio; ive cut your pay since you dont need it anyway'. efb: above post cheque_some posted:Like they go on and on about how they'll reimburse you for all your equipment for your home office EXCEPT FOR WINDOWS COMPUTERS because "git doesn't work on Windows and PCs get lots of viruses" or something, which just sounds like something an apple fan would say in 2006 they as a commercial git vendor are empowered to fix this problem so lol at not even attempting to target that userbase Progressive JPEG fucked around with this message at 22:08 on May 6, 2018 |
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May 6, 2018 22:03
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It's not crazy if you see it for what it really is: a disincentive to work remotely while also a convenient way of reducing labor costs in a way that sounds semi reasonable.
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May 6, 2018 22:29
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quote:
This company is hilarious. "We have chosen to cede the entire Windows developer market to GitHub and Microsoft."
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May 6, 2018 23:26
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Fiedler posted:This company is hilarious. "We have chosen to cede the entire Windows developer market to GitHub and Microsoft." lol jesus, i'm the company built entirely on git that will only begrudgingly allow you to use linux.
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May 6, 2018 23:34
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Translation: Our CEO thinks he's the second coming of Steve Jobs
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May 6, 2018 23:37
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Translation: Do not ever work for this company or use their products.
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May 6, 2018 23:40
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Fiedler posted:Translation: Do not ever work for this company or use their products. gitlab is riding high on the k8s and “let’s run everything ourselves what do those github guys know?” bandwagon surprisingly they are even worse at operations and infrastructure than their customers
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May 7, 2018 01:18
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