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qhat
Jul 6, 2015


Working at a big company, you take for granted all of the extremely streamlined processes that are necessary for software development at scale. It's really eye opening to work for a startup if only to see how awful software development can be when those processes don't exist.

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b0lt
Apr 29, 2005

qhat posted:

Not forgetting that the SDLC at startups very often sucks rear end completely.

any company that unironically uses 'sdlc' is terrible

qhat
Jul 6, 2015


b0lt posted:

any company that unironically uses 'sdlc' is terrible

Go on

my homie dhall
Dec 9, 2010

honey, oh please, it's just a machine

b0lt posted:

any company that unironically uses 'sdlc' is terrible

you’d prefer companies you work for not give any thought to how software is created?

DELETE CASCADE
Oct 25, 2017

i haven't washed my penis since i jerked it to a phtotograph of george w. bush in 2003

Ploft-shell crab posted:

you’d prefer companies you work for not give any thought to how software is created?

basically yes, just let me do whatever i want, and believe whatever i tell you about how/when the thing you want will be done

Captain Foo
May 11, 2004

we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'

DELETE CASCADE posted:

basically yes, just let me do whatever i want, and believe whatever i tell you about how/when the thing you want will be done

we've decided to go with someone else

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

DELETE CASCADE posted:

basically yes, just let me do whatever i want, and believe whatever i tell you about how/when the thing you want will be done

you're part of the problem, not the solution

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene
working at a startup means hanging out with guys like delete cascade

edit: this is especially applicable to windows shops

Janitor Prime
Jan 22, 2004

PC LOAD LETTER

What da fuck does that mean

Fun Shoe

Captain Foo posted:

we've decided to go with someone else

laffo, but yes that hit too close to home

I guess that is why I enjoy this lovely startup where I'm at the top of poo poo mountain

DELETE CASCADE
Oct 25, 2017

i haven't washed my penis since i jerked it to a phtotograph of george w. bush in 2003

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

working at a startup means hanging out with guys like delete cascade

edit: this is especially applicable to windows shops

i don't work at a startup or a windows shop and also i am a team lead :getin:

i mean my post was kinda joking but also kinda not

qhat
Jul 6, 2015


Making a change in big org: checkout the code, make change, then submit and let it move up the build into production.

Making a change in lovely startup: checkout the code, download prebuilt binaries from sourceforge/GitHub for your dependencies making sure not to download the wrong ones. Checkout the in-house git repo with the prebuilt binaries for the in-house code. Set up your filesystem/environment variables so that the project actually builds. Repeat this entire process until you are able to the get project to build. Make your changes making sure not to write any unit tests because at the end of the day QA will just find the bugs. Ship to QA when it compiles. Fight with QA for the next 2 months because your program is ultimately broken and they can't seem to replicate your build. When QA finally gets it working, blame them for the delay and then ship to customers. Then fight with them adinfinitum.

qhat fucked around with this message at 01:26 on May 15, 2018

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016


:cheers:


DELETE CASCADE posted:

basically yes, just let me do whatever i want, and believe whatever i tell you about how/when the thing you want will be done

Captain Foo posted:

we've decided to go with someone else

Schadenboner
Aug 15, 2011

by Shine
Come to Milwaukee, dumb GIS bitches. County is looking for a guy. I dunno, fukkin :google: it some poo poo.

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
the good thing about working for an established business is being a very small cog in a very large machine
the bad thing about working for an established business is being a very small cog in a very large machine

startups are more likely to give you interesting work, unfortunately you'll get an uneven mix of the good and bad kinds of interesting (spoilers it's mostly the bad kind)

my homie dhall
Dec 9, 2010

honey, oh please, it's just a machine

qhat posted:

Making a change in big org: checkout the code, make change, then submit and let it move up the build into production.


unfortunately for me, i can tell you definitively this is not how it goes at many big orgs :(

my homie dhall
Dec 9, 2010

honey, oh please, it's just a machine

Sapozhnik posted:

the good thing about working for an established business is being a very small cog in a very large machine
the bad thing about working for an established business is being a very small cog in a very large machine

startups are more likely to give you interesting work, unfortunately you'll get an uneven mix of the good and bad kinds of interesting (spoilers it's mostly the bad kind)

the hard problems I was solving at the "startup" I was working at were mostly technical

the hard problems I'm solving now are mostly organizational

Fiedler
Jun 29, 2002

I, for one, welcome our new mouse overlords.

qhat posted:

Making a change in big org: checkout the code, make change, then submit and let it move up the build into production.

Or if you work with nbsd: ssh into one of the build servers, make code changes there, start build, check back four hours later, fix build errors, start build, check back tomorrow morning, then submit and let it move up the build into production.

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Ploft-shell crab posted:

the hard problems I was solving at the "startup" I was working at were mostly technical

the hard problems I'm solving now are mostly organizational

the organizational problems are the ones that justify your bloated american salary

any chimp can fix a bug. what gets you paid is talking to stakeholders and working out problems with people

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Fiedler posted:

Or if you work with nbsd: ssh into one of the build servers, make code changes there, start build, check back four hours later, fix build errors, start build, check back tomorrow morning, then submit and let it move up the build into production.

what have i done to deserve this aspersion?

i pity the fool who does not have a prober ci tool

Fiedler
Jun 29, 2002

I, for one, welcome our new mouse overlords.
Just recalling your description of how c++ development happens at your company.

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Fiedler posted:

Just recalling your description of how c++ development happens at your company.

the build times are deeply unreasonable but they are done in build farms, because it is a real company with employees for that

kitten emergency
Jan 13, 2008

get meow this wack-ass crystal prison

qhat posted:

Making a change in big org: checkout the code, make change, then submit and let it move up the build into production.

Making a change in lovely startup: checkout the code, download prebuilt binaries from sourceforge/GitHub for your dependencies making sure not to download the wrong ones. Checkout the in-house git repo with the prebuilt binaries for the in-house code. Set up your filesystem/environment variables so that the project actually builds. Repeat this entire process until you are able to the get project to build. Make your changes making sure not to write any unit tests because at the end of the day QA will just find the bugs. Ship to QA when it compiles. Fight with QA for the next 2 months because your program is ultimately broken and they can't seem to replicate your build. When QA finally gets it working, blame them for the delay and then ship to customers. Then fight with them adinfinitum.

you seem to have this backwards

the talent deficit
Dec 20, 2003

self-deprecation is a very british trait, and problems can arise when the british attempt to do so with a foreign culture





i've done three tech interviews and two hr interviews for one company and now they want me to do two more tech interviews and another hr interview. can i reasonably expect them to offer me a c level role at this point?

Progressive JPEG
Feb 19, 2003

nah for that you need to be interviewed on a golf course

qhat
Jul 6, 2015


the talent deficit posted:

i've done three tech interviews and two hr interviews for one company and now they want me to do two more tech interviews and another hr interview. can i reasonably expect them to offer me a c level role at this point?

Lol. Given how "thorough" they are being with you, I'd probably use it as significant leverage in salary negotiations.

AWWNAW
Dec 30, 2008

the talent deficit posted:

i've done three tech interviews and two hr interviews for one company and now they want me to do two more tech interviews and another hr interview. can i reasonably expect them to offer me a c level role at this point?

you should've been getting paid after the first or second tech interview

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

the organizational problems are the ones that justify your bloated american salary

any chimp can fix a bug. what gets you paid is talking to stakeholders and working out problems with people

there's an element of this but you overstate the hell out of your case as usual.

weren't you talking about how domain knowledge is what gets you paid a few weeks back? now you're all mr interpersonal skills. yeah part of that involves talking to non-programmers but part of that also involves knowing what the gently caress you're doing in the subject matter without going to wikipedia every five minutes.

also it's more like any chimp can write a program that mostly works under reasonable input, but people who can write something that doesn't disintegrate the moment somebody wants to change something and whose sole answer to any software maintenance problem isn't just "gently caress it, let's just rewrite this poo poo it sucks anyway" are still somewhat hard to come by.

EVGA Longoria
Dec 25, 2005

Let's go exploring!

how do y'all handle recruiting while interviewing? we're having some huge turnover, and i'm ready to move on. but i've got to back fill a few roles on my team from people who left, and i'm starting to feel guilty about hiring someone only to say peace out in a month.

also, it's amazing what overhauling your resume can do. i spent some time applying back in december and got no bites. rewrote my resume from scratch with more emphasis on things i've worked on, and suddenly everyone is actually giving me interview. feels good, man

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


remind me again how time limits on offer acceptances are a red flag? i learned that we give candidates one week to accept and i recall really disliking that part of the offer (though the rest was great) so i wanna give feedback on it from a candidate perspective, but I can’t really elucidate my thoughts.

The Leck
Feb 27, 2001

got an offer, but it's for a pretty significant drop in total comp and a higher cost of living city. not really feeling too confident about negotiating this one to the point where it would be a raise even without taking into account col differences. i'm really sick of the job hunting process, but i don't know that i can bring myself to take this one.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


The Leck posted:

got an offer, but it's for a pretty significant drop in total comp and a higher cost of living city. not really feeling too confident about negotiating this one to the point where it would be a raise even without taking into account col differences. i'm really sick of the job hunting process, but i don't know that i can bring myself to take this one.

not worth it unless it’s literally impossible to find a better offer, which I doubt

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


remember, this is the next 3+ years of your life

Feisty-Cadaver
Jun 1, 2000
The worms crawl in,
The worms crawl out.

EVGA Longoria posted:

how do y'all handle recruiting while interviewing?

if you find someone amazing you keep their contact deets and try and poach them if your new job is not hot garbage

champagne posting
Apr 5, 2006

YOU ARE A BRAIN
IN A BUNKER

Pollyanna posted:

remember, this is the next 3+ years of your life

i thought it was 1 year then job hop?

MononcQc
May 29, 2007

The Leck posted:

got an offer, but it's for a pretty significant drop in total comp and a higher cost of living city. not really feeling too confident about negotiating this one to the point where it would be a raise even without taking into account col differences. i'm really sick of the job hunting process, but i don't know that i can bring myself to take this one.

aside from being sick of job hunting, the job not being worth it for you at this point is the easiest way to negotiate because you're currently not willing to bend over backwards to go work there and it's now up to them to convince you to go work there.

Like if you're thinking of just not taking it because it's not worth it financially speaking, get in there and tell them. This represents too much of a drop, and unless they can make a better or more competitive offer, this is not a job offer you can legitimately accept. They may ask for a figure; give one and it's up to them to match it or not.

They might say no, but you were already thinking of not working there, so you've got little to lose there. If they say yes super quick, they were lowballing you and you now have that knowledge for future negotiations with them, and you know there's more money where it came from. If they say yes but take a lot of time to think, you may not get much better than this unless finances or management change at that company, so be prepared to maybe switch jobs in a couple of years to improve conditions if you feel the need for that.

MononcQc
May 29, 2007

personal story time: I once had an employer that paid me fairly little, and the moment I told them I was leaving for another job and told them the new salary I'd be making (something like 30% more or above), they took less than 5 seconds to offer to match it. That's when I learned that they were really loving happy to under-pay me and knew my real value was much higher than that. There was no coming back from that negotiation.

Another company I switched to at another point asked my salary expectations, when I told them, they answered "that's too low" and offered me a bunch money more than that. They got my loyalty for a few years because they showed that they would not just take the money and run, even if I later learned that I was asking below any of the pre-defined salary scales they had and could literally not pay me what I asked because HR wouldn't have let them.

qhat
Jul 6, 2015


Pollyanna posted:

remind me again how time limits on offer acceptances are a red flag? i learned that we give candidates one week to accept and i recall really disliking that part of the offer (though the rest was great) so i wanna give feedback on it from a candidate perspective, but I can’t really elucidate my thoughts.

They're not a red flag, companies have other people lined up and they need to respond to them. That being said, 1 week is normal to let a candidate decide. Any less is certainly a red flag and just shows they're more interested in pressuring a candidate to accept what they know is probably a poor offer relative to the market than actually getting the best candidate for the job.

Mao Zedong Thot
Oct 16, 2008


Pollyanna posted:

remind me again how time limits on offer acceptances are a red flag? i learned that we give candidates one week to accept and i recall really disliking that part of the offer (though the rest was great) so i wanna give feedback on it from a candidate perspective, but I can’t really elucidate my thoughts.

A week is extremely reasonable

the talent deficit
Dec 20, 2003

self-deprecation is a very british trait, and problems can arise when the british attempt to do so with a foreign culture





Pollyanna posted:

remind me again how time limits on offer acceptances are a red flag? i learned that we give candidates one week to accept and i recall really disliking that part of the offer (though the rest was great) so i wanna give feedback on it from a candidate perspective, but I can’t really elucidate my thoughts.

they're not a red flag at all. most companies/teams only have headcount/budget for a single hire when they are making offers and having to wait weeks for someone to make a decision means putting a hold on hiring during that time. as long as the period is reasonable (4+ days) and you are flexible on negotiating the period expiring offers are totally normal and reasonable

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Star War Sex Parrot
Oct 2, 2003

some schools enforce a 3 week offer period for companies that want to recruit there and it’s always fun to hear about the mental gymnastics that recruiters go through to try to skirt that

Return offers (intern -> full time) are subject to different restrictions and this year Facebook tried to claim a bunch of students were “interns” because they hosted a one-day visit session and then extended return full-time offers

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