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We are definitely looking at Zen for new consoles, it seems. Next PlayStation Is Three Years Off, Sony Says edit: Paywalls are annoying. quote:By Takashi Mochizuki SwissArmyDruid fucked around with this message at 16:09 on May 23, 2018 |
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May 23, 2018 16:03
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ufarn posted:Does this mean 7nm is looking good for for Zen 2 as well? Yup. Typically takes 3-6 months to get chips to market from start of production. If you see a product with 7nm chips in it in late 2018 that is a pretty solid reason to think AMD will have high volume 7nm Zen2's by late 1H 2019 (May-June). Possibly earlier (ie. March-ish) if the process ramps without any SNAFU's and/or if they decide to go with a low volume launch that targeted enthusiasts 1st. On the flip side of that: if they hit a series of SNAFU's that screws up yields then yes Zen2 could easily slip into late 2H 2019. Generally though if they're able to put chips into high volume products, even relatively high end ones, then production must be doing decently well at least and its reasonable to assume they won't have SNAFU's of that severity. It'll be interesting if AMD really does end up using TSMC and GF as a foundry for Zen2 CPU's and APU's. Its possible they might actually be able to supply enough parts to the market to really hurt Intel's market share for once. Closest they came last time to pulling that off was with the Dresden fab...but then multicore CPU's started to really take off and that ate up their fab capacity big time.
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May 23, 2018 17:36
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SwissArmyDruid posted:We are definitely looking at Zen for new consoles, it seems.
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May 23, 2018 20:16
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Also it gives Sony time to skip GCN. If it was 2019 or early 2020, they'd be stuck with Navi. A 2021 release strongly indicates the PS5 will be using whatever AMD has for post GCN GPUs.
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May 23, 2018 20:25
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FaustianQ posted:Also it gives Sony time to skip GCN. If it was 2019 or early 2020, they'd be stuck with Navi. A 2021 release strongly indicates the PS5 will be using whatever AMD has for post GCN GPUs. Ehhhh... They do need to beat their retail date by about a year with development consoles, so they might not have that option. It does matter less on a dedicated console, because games can be written to be hardware optimized.
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May 23, 2018 20:41
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Is the 7mm that they are talking about completely made at that size or just the less critical/tolerant parts and the rest 14mm?
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May 23, 2018 21:32
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Traces at 7nm, junctions at like 10-14 or something. There was a more detailed breakdown on the specs of the different 7/10nm processes but basically they all have huge asterisks next to the number.
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May 23, 2018 21:47
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2021 seems awfully long. Holiday 2021 would be an eight year cycle for the PS4, even with the Pro available that's gonna feel awfully pokey after 8 years. A public plan for press & investors might be more of a "last possible date" with their internal plans and decisions still looking at earlier options. Particularly when there's been over-excited reporting going around like Playstation 5 is coming next year! EoRaptor posted:Ehhhh... They do need to beat their retail date by about a year with development consoles, so they might not have that option. It does matter less on a dedicated console, because games can be written to be hardware optimized. Optimization is always a casualty for launch games. And even if Navi or whatever is a big upgrade from GCN, it's not gonna be that different. The switch over to x86 and PC derived parts is gonna make a "generation" switchover way less painful.
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May 23, 2018 22:09
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At least HDMI 2.1 will be a fairly settled and supported standard by then.
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May 23, 2018 22:34
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Klyith posted:2021 seems awfully long. Holiday 2021 would be an eight year cycle for the PS4, even with the Pro available
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May 23, 2018 22:34
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Klyith posted:2021 seems awfully long. Holiday 2021 would be an eight year cycle for the PS4, even with the Pro available that's gonna feel awfully pokey after 8 years. Some of the more legitimate looking E3 leaks floating around mention a PS4 Pro v2.0 announcement so there’s that. I’m guessing that would be be slimmer (die shrink/process optimisation) plus obvious features like VRR.
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May 23, 2018 23:56
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Happy_Misanthrope posted:So an 8 year cycle, if you don't count the more powerful version of a machine designed specifically so the platform doesn't seem so dated Yeah, my thought is that the PS4 Pro is more like a successor that has backward compatibility than just a slim-down like some previous console rev. 2s have been. There's an implied commitment with releasing that expensive new hardware pitched at current owners that it will continue to get releases for several years before being obsoleted. As far as I'm aware the console itself doesn't typically have great margins compared to the games anyway.
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May 24, 2018 00:28
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ufarn posted:At least HDMI 2.1 will be a fairly settled and supported standard by then. From a bigger than 4k content perspective sure but from a gaming perspective, I doubt a console will be driving 4k120Hz gameplay at 4:4:4 so that spec isn't really necessary? HDMI 2.0 is already good enough for 1080p240hz as well fwiw. 2.1 will be great and all but it will mean gently caress if the high and/or adaptive refresh panels don't ramp up manufacturing for actual TV sets and not just monitors. E: correct colors Seamonster fucked around with this message at 00:44 on May 24, 2018 |
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May 24, 2018 00:33
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Eletriarnation posted:Yeah, my thought is that the PS4 Pro is more like a successor that has backward compatibility The pro is often called a half step but it's more like a quarter step. That's why IMO it won't count for much in 2021 for staving off unfortunate comparisons. Plus the requirement to spec games to the base PS4 will still hold back games unless Sony is ok with stuff being 20 fps on base models. The 360 & PS3 had a really weak year when they were obviously limping and there was a big resurgence in PC only or PC-central games. IMO that was another contributing reason for the flip in dominance from 360 to PS4, besides all of MS's blunders: petering out like that let people drift away to PC or other platforms. So it wasn't as big a deal to switch loyalties when they came back. Eroding the lock-in right before a new generation was a tactical mistake. Eletriarnation posted:As far as I'm aware the console itself doesn't typically have great margins compared to the games anyway. At this point I think the main source of profits for platform owners are the Gold/Plus subscriptions & ads.
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May 24, 2018 00:54
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The Pro and the XBOX are DSi or n3DS.
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May 24, 2018 00:58
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Woot now has two more refurb HP Ryzen machines, both R5 1400s, and both priced above the R7 1700 machine -- seemingly due to their included GPUs. One has a RX580 (vs the RX550 in the R7 machine) for $580; the other has a GTX 1060 for $650.
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May 24, 2018 01:10
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mdxi posted:Woot now has two more refurb HP Ryzen machines, both R5 1400s, and both priced above the R7 1700 machine -- seemingly due to their included GPUs. Maybe mention the RX580 one indicates only a single 8GB DIMM?
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May 24, 2018 01:32
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Klyith posted:The pro is often called a half step but it's more like a quarter step. Ah, the Devil’s Canyon of consoles.
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May 24, 2018 05:34
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Klyith posted:The 360 & PS3 had a really weak year when they were obviously limping and there was a big resurgence in PC only or PC-central games. IMO that was another contributing reason for the flip in dominance from 360 to PS4, besides all of MS's blunders: petering out like that let people drift away to PC or other platforms. So it wasn't as big a deal to switch loyalties when they came back. Eroding the lock-in right before a new generation was a tactical mistake. Totally agree with that. I got back into PC gaming after pretty much abandoning it at the start of the 360/PS3 generation in 2011 for similar reasons. Battlefield 3 and other games looked a whole generation ahead of their console counterparts, which also were gimped in other ways (BF3 as example could only support 32 players vs. 64 on the PC). The parts for that computer all arrived at my brothers house since I was away for work. Having an aging pc himself and curious to see what these parts could do, he built it before I returned to town. My sister played Skyrim on release on that PC, and when I took the PC back after arriving home, she bought the 360 version. She was extremely disappointed in the graphics and performance compared to the PC version on a midrange at the time computer, and I would hardly describe her as hardcore gamer type. So there is definitely a danger in losing customers if you drag on a console generation too long.
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May 24, 2018 14:50
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Sergeant Steiner posted:Totally agree with that. I got back into PC gaming after pretty much abandoning it at the start of the 360/PS3 generation in 2011 for similar reasons. Battlefield 3 and other games looked a whole generation ahead of their console counterparts, which also were gimped in other ways (BF3 as example could only support 32 players vs. 64 on the PC). ...which really doesn't apply to this generation, as we have the Pro/One X for those who want something better in the console space, now. Sony specifically mentioned the Pro was designed to combat drift to the PC during the latter years of a console's lifespan.
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May 24, 2018 17:12
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Happy_Misanthrope posted:...which really doesn't apply to this generation, as we have the Pro/One X for those who want something better in the console space, now. Sony specifically mentioned the Pro was designed to combat drift to the PC during the latter years of a console's lifespan. PCs were also rapidly improving at the time, and relatively affordable. Late in the 360/PS3 generation had incredibly powerful, nice desktops that could be built for ~$600 or $500. Because of the GPU price increase, GPUs still cost more than they did 2 years ago for the same performance, and even then that generation wasn't a huge improvement over the one before it. RAM is expensive as heck too, costs more per GB than 2009, almost a decade ago!
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May 24, 2018 17:22
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Twerk from Home posted:PCs were also rapidly improving at the time, and relatively affordable. Late in the 360/PS3 generation had incredibly powerful, nice desktops that could be built for ~$600 or $500. That will likely change (hopefully), but agreed the pace of improvement in the GPU space has slowed considerably since then. There were also massive differences in game assets between PC and 360/PS3 at that time as well - large differences in texture quality, view distance, lighting etc. Now they're far closer, the PC obviously has the perf advantage in multiplatform games and for me that's important, but with HDR actually working on console games (unlike the clusterfuck of the PC), pseudo-4k (in the case of the Pro) and mostly-real 4K (in the case of the OneX), and even stuff like VRR, it's pointless to compare the end of last gen to this gen. Just not comparable.
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May 24, 2018 17:38
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Twerk from Home posted:PCs were also rapidly improving at the time, and relatively affordable. Late in the 360/PS3 generation had incredibly powerful, nice desktops that could be built for ~$600 or $500. The cost of 4x4gb DDR3 in 2011 when I built my computer is about the same price for DDR4 today. I remember decent 2x8GB packs being ~200 USD.
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May 24, 2018 18:04
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Happy_Misanthrope posted:...which really doesn't apply to this generation, as we have the Pro/One X for those who want something better in the console space, now. Sony specifically mentioned the Pro was designed to combat drift to the PC during the latter years of a console's lifespan. Can’t argue with that. I thought the half step for this generation was a smart idea, and with prices being what they are with GPUs and memory, I wouldn’t recommend building a PC to most people unless you’re already invested in it.
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May 24, 2018 20:05
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PerrineClostermann posted:The cost of 4x4gb DDR3 in 2011 when I built my computer is about the same price for DDR4 today. I remember decent 2x8GB packs being ~200 USD. I bought DDR2 for less than $10/GB in 2009, I could have bought DDR3 but I was out to save those bucks and the Phenom 965 I won for free at Quakecon could do DDR2 or DDR3, and had crippling widely known bugs using 4 sticks of DDR3. Edit: It wasn't "good" RAM, but 4x2GB DDR2-800. Either way it's insane that end consumer prices for DRAM are about the same as they were 6+ years ago. Twerk from Home fucked around with this message at 21:10 on May 24, 2018 |
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May 24, 2018 21:08
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I hadn't even thought of DRAM demand effects coming from console production ramp up.
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May 24, 2018 21:55
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Seamonster posted:I hadn't even thought of DRAM demand effects coming from console production ramp up. That the the explosion of smartphones all sucking down fab capacity, since every single one needs 1-4GB of LPDDR3/4.
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May 25, 2018 01:20
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yeah consoles are a blip on demand. a single fab can produce tens of thousands of wafers a month. even assuming a memory fab is doing 50% of its capacity in RAM and has a modest production of 50000 wafers monthly, that's still around 25000 wafers for ram alone. I'm too lazy to look up IC sizes, but there are hundreds of dies per wafer going by package sizes. that means a single fab alone produces low tens of millions of chips every month at the very least. Multiply that by number of fabs and actual RAM production, and you have maybe over 100 million chips made every month.
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May 25, 2018 02:32
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I recalled 2GB DDR3 DIMMs in 2011-2012 was the price of maybe like 2 Mcdonald value meals. It was so low people didn't even bother to sell them secondhand, and Elpida died for our cheap RAM sins.
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May 25, 2018 04:09
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I think I paid more for the 32GB of RAM I put in my Ryzen system last year than I did for the processor and motherboard combined  ... aaand it's mostly because I know Chrome is a giant loving memory hog and I don't feel like going back to closing the browser to play a game like it's loving 2004 again.
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May 25, 2018 14:15
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Agreed on the 32GB.. and sorry to hear it raped you so hard. I wouldn't fly with less than that myself.
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May 25, 2018 15:14
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Munkeymon posted:I think I paid more for the 32GB of RAM I put in my Ryzen system last year than I did for the processor and motherboard combined I'm trucking along on 8GB with well over a hundred tabs open in Firefox with no issues thinking I should probably upgrade to 16GB for my next build.
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May 25, 2018 16:15
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redeyes posted:Agreed on the 32GB.. and sorry to hear it raped you so hard. I wouldn't fly with less than that myself. That's, uh, a strong way to put it and certainly a poor choice of words! Considering how good the CPU+mobo you can get for ~$300 US are nowdays I feel like it's all a wash and, really, I'm just glad I got a 1070 before the second coming of craptocurrency mining on PC hardware because that is total bullshit.
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May 25, 2018 16:20
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I'm unironically considering upgrading to 2x16gb sticks next year so I can expand to 64gb and not upgrade until 2035
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May 25, 2018 16:21
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Quoting for relevance:Methylethylaldehyde posted:Buy 4 sticks of this stuff: Samsung branded memory, Part # M391A2k43BB1-CRC. It's basically OEM brand memory, so it takes a bit of hunting to find it, and it's not cheap when you do, each stick cost me ~$250 when I bought it. If you hunt around you can find other sticks with the same dies in them, but unbuffered ECC is hard to find. I can confirm that this part number goes up to 2933 CL16 without effort, but I haven't been able to get beyond that. My machine (X370 Taichi, R7 1700) throws ECC errors or outright crashes if I try to either tighten the timings or increase the clock rate. Still, good for 2x16GB sticks on that platfrom. Zen+ might do even better. They're still ~$220 per stick: https://www.ebay.com/itm/322375046134
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May 25, 2018 17:03
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It's Semiaccurate, and therefore sits firmly in the same category of "salt now, so you're not salty later" as WCCFT, but: according to this, that thing that I was worried about, where people just upgrade to the next thing that Intel comes out with out of inertia may not be happening. https://semiaccurate.com/2018/05/22/intel-customers-arent-buying-new-offerings/ A point highly belabored by current Epyc marketing, it seems:  https://www.servethehome.com/amd-this-is-epyc-campaign-and-amd-epyc-updates/
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May 25, 2018 18:34
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that picture owns
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May 25, 2018 18:37
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loving LOL that owns Hahahahaaaaaaa GRINDCORE MEGGIDO fucked around with this message at 18:41 on May 25, 2018 |
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May 25, 2018 18:37
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they had that up at a booth earlier this year, good placement too
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May 25, 2018 18:52
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i'm dying holy poo poo this is the best
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May 25, 2018 18:57
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