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OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

skeleton warrior posted:

Yeah, let’s not give the new guy “based on the mods *I* play, this is optimal” advice.

My General rule of thumb: for the first hundred years or so, net minerals should be twice net energy, and science for each type should be at or above net energy income.

Once you get to 150 - 200 minerals, start using new energy and minerals income as an excuse to break down worse energy and mineral production on planets and replacing it with science production.

Even without mods, especially without mods, building massive numbers of habitats is of dubious utility because while they produce science it's not really a very large amount, and they also push your science costs up by a percentage value, so if you're making like, 150 science a month anyway which you easily can be just from space and planets by the time you get the ability to build habitats, they're probably not going to actually improve your ability to research technologies, especially as you cannot specialize them in any one kind of science, and they're definitely going to increase your unity costs.

The main thing habitats are good for is energy production to upkeep your fleets, and you only need a handful of them for that.

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Jazerus
May 24, 2011


skeleton warrior posted:

Sure, assuming you’re ignoring all of the other advice so far of “build to tile specialties” and “go back later and build all of the science stations”.

If your whole empire is devoted to minerals, yes, you’re playing wrong. If your “one unity building, respect tile resources, conquer a bunch of stars and build of a bunch of stations” can’t take one perk for habitats, then man, I don’t know

that's not what the first poster said which was what i was responding to

personally unless i'm feeling threatened or my economy is very unbalanced i just build the science in the first place, but replacement is perfectly valid. even with habitats you'll run out of ways to spend minerals so i don't understand the relevance of them to what i said?

OwlFancier posted:

Even without mods, building massive numbers of habitats is of dubious utility because while they produce science it's not really a very large amount, and they also push your science costs up by a percentage value, so if you're making like, 150 science a month anyway which you easily can be just from space and planets by the time you get the ability to build habitats, they're probably not going to actually improve your ability to research technologies, and they're definitely going to increase your unity costs.

The main thing habitats are good for is energy production to upkeep your fleets, and you only need a handful of them for that.

a habitat stuffed full of research will provide value significantly in excess of the penalty and shouldn't fall behind on unity either since stuff like paradise domes and visitor centers can be built on them

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

Jazerus posted:

a habitat stuffed full of research will provide value significantly in excess of the penalty and shouldn't fall behind on unity either since stuff like paradise domes and visitor centers can be built on them

As I recall, at 12 tiles and assuming you use as many as possible for unity buildings and maybe 1 to offset energy costs plus the extra planet tiles you'll need for food because 1 dome won't produce enough, you will produce maybe 15-20 science per type per habitat.

Which if it increases your costs by 10% (I think it's 10% per colonized world) and you're sitting around 150 production which is what I'm normally at when I get habitats, that's not much of a benefit.

You're paying 10k minerals and 200 influence for a few percent improvement or so in all schools, at that point you might as well throw 10k at some other empires and buy some research treaties.

OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:19 on May 27, 2018

Nordick
Sep 3, 2011

Yes.

Nordick posted:

Huh, I just noticed that strategic resources in my current game have reverted back to their pre-2.1 effects. Wonder if some mod's loving up or what.
To answer my own question, it's the outdated Collect All Resources mod that's causing this. Shame, I really like that mod. Hopefully the author updates it soon.

Jazerus
May 24, 2011


OwlFancier posted:

As I recall, at 12 tiles and assuming you use as many as possible for unity buildings and maybe 1 to offset energy costs, you will produce maybe 15-20 science per type per habitat.

Which if it increases your costs by 10% (I think it's 10% per colonized world) and you're sitting around 150 production which is what I'm normally at when I get habitats, that's not much of a benefit.

it's not a multiplier of your current total cost, it's additive with the costs of your other planets and then the sum applies multiplicatively to base cost

in other words if you're at 150 production and get 15 science per habitat (you should get more like 24 but whatever), the 10% penalty doesn't mean that 165 production post-habitat = 150 pre-habitat. don't feel like doing the math but you're losing significantly less than 15 science to the penalty.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

Jazerus posted:

it's not a multiplier of your current total cost, it's additive with the costs of your other planets and then the sum applies multiplicatively to base cost

in other words if you're at 150 production and get 15 science per habitat, the 10% penalty doesn't mean that 165 production post-habitat = 150 pre-habitat. don't feel like doing the math but you're losing significantly less than 15 science to the penalty.

Even still it's going to become a very marginal gain very quickly. I build some habitats but it's very easy to stack minerals to the point where you can build more than you would want, instead of pushing for science and looking to get better megastructures or looking to capture territory from foes, even if you're going to vassalize them.

I would say it's rarely going to be worth aiming for more than 150 mineral income per month, 200 tops, which is easily attained if you stay on good terms with enough of your neighbours that you don't need to maintain a large standing fleet. If you are fighting a lot of wars then maybe but in peacetime that's about the limit of my need to develop.

OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:24 on May 27, 2018

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

My favorite part of habitats is that you can plan everything out the instant you colonize it.

Vengarr
Jun 17, 2010

Smashed before noon

OwlFancier posted:

Even still it's going to become a very marginal gain very quickly. I build some habitats but it's very easy to stack minerals to the point where you can build more than you would want, instead of pushing for science and looking to get better megastructures or looking to capture territory from foes, even if you're going to vassalize them.

I would say it's rarely going to be worth aiming for more than 150 mineral income per month, 200 tops, which is easily attained if you stay on good terms with enough of your neighbours that you don't need to maintain a large standing fleet. If you are fighting a lot of wars then maybe but in peacetime that's about the limit of my need to develop.

You can always use excess minerals to upgrade Starbases. Star Fortresses and Citadels ain't cheap.

really queer Christmas
Apr 22, 2014

Distant stars trait spoiler

Are brain slug traits bugged? I’ve got a ruler and scientist with brain slugs and neither are giving the bonuses. Specifically, research speed for the scientist and tile research output and naval capacity for the ruler

Kaal
May 22, 2002

through thousands of posts in D&D over a decade, I now believe I know what I'm talking about. if I post forcefully and confidently, I can convince others that is true. no one sees through my facade.

really queer Christmas posted:

Distant stars trait spoiler

Are brain slug traits bugged? I’ve got a ruler and scientist with brain slugs and neither are giving the bonuses. Specifically, research speed for the scientist and tile research output and naval capacity for the ruler

Yeah I don't think they work, or at least don't display

Electro-Boogie Jack
Nov 22, 2006
bagger mcguirk sent me.

OwlFancier posted:

I thought that but no, I've built ships at experienced level and they show a markedly lower power score than established ships, even accounting for admirals.

I don't really understand what's causing it but it was a matter of like, 2000 fleet power in a fleet of total 4k (new built) and 6k (old fleet, same pattern).

After I fought with both fleets for a bit they evened out, but I don't know why.

I just ran into a weird one where my fleet strength was one number, then (due to an unrelated (probably?) bug with the fleet manager where it wouldn't acknowledge that half the ships in the fleet existed) after I separated all the ships out and added them all back together it was a different number, about 200 lower.

ZypherIM
Nov 8, 2010

"I want to see what she's in love with."

Habitats are a net positive as long as you're not building minerals/food (or almost always a net positive). The research increase is +5% to the base tech cost (same as a planet). You need something on the order of 600+ raw research before 11 labs is breaking even or a loss. That leaves you 3 spots for a unity building, energy nexus (bonus unity from prosperity tree), and say a paradise dome (food/unity) or energy building. Keep in mind that master builders perk gives you 3 extra tiles for a size of 15.

Eltoasto
Aug 26, 2002

We come spinning out of nothingness, scattering stars like dust.



Man, i bumped the difficulty up and got absolutely bullied by the AI. Had a bit of bad luck with the starting position, but the AI really built up their fleets faster than I expected. What fleets do you guys typically go for and how hard do you rush them? Still autocannon/Torp vette fleets primarily?

AG3
Feb 4, 2004

Ask me about spending hundreds of dollars on Mass Effect 2 emoticons and Avatars.

Oven Wrangler

Kaal posted:

Yeah I don't think they work, or at least don't display

The governor one works, but the scientist one doesn't, at least not the research speed part of it. I haven't hired any of the other leader types with it so I can't comment on those.

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

Eltoasto posted:

Man, i bumped the difficulty up and got absolutely bullied by the AI. Had a bit of bad luck with the starting position, but the AI really built up their fleets faster than I expected. What fleets do you guys typically go for and how hard do you rush them? Still autocannon/Torp vette fleets primarily?

I cranked the difficulty up and my 2 neighbors were kinda grump with me which I was pretty nervous about until they both suddenly gave me giant gifts of energy or minerals. I immediately traded for communications.

Starting from the north the geography was something like: exterminator, assimilator, neighbor a, me, neighbor b, devouring hive, hive.

There are now 3 alliances.

ZypherIM
Nov 8, 2010

"I want to see what she's in love with."

If you're keeping up on fleet strength I think what happens is that the AI is sort of worried about you jumping them, so they take steps to get on your good side. Also when there are devouring swarms/exterminators that adds a positive value for people getting along.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

Vengarr posted:

You can always use excess minerals to upgrade Starbases. Star Fortresses and Citadels ain't cheap.

This is a good use for them yes, I would suggest doing this before building habitats, generally. Especially to secure troublesome borders.

ZypherIM posted:

Habitats are a net positive as long as you're not building minerals/food (or almost always a net positive). The research increase is +5% to the base tech cost (same as a planet). You need something on the order of 600+ raw research before 11 labs is breaking even or a loss. That leaves you 3 spots for a unity building, energy nexus (bonus unity from prosperity tree), and say a paradise dome (food/unity) or energy building. Keep in mind that master builders perk gives you 3 extra tiles for a size of 15.

If you have the extra three tiles that is going to help quite a bit at making them more useful, it's true. On a side note, is that retroactive or only on new builds?

OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 00:55 on May 28, 2018

ZypherIM
Nov 8, 2010

"I want to see what she's in love with."

Its a 2.1 change base. And even without the extra 3 tiles, dropping it from 11 labs to say 9 still leaves you above 500 research before you're looking at a penalty.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

Sorry I mean are the extra 3 tiles applied to habitats you build before you take master builders or is it only ones you build afterwards?

I know habitats rarely produce actual penalties they're just not really good enough to justify the effort, for me. I'd rather wait for ringworlds. I suppose though there's nothing stopping me building a few extra habitats then depopulating them onto ringworlds later.

Though again that's probably partly to do with playing on double timescale because I can build ringworlds much faster relative to a normal game because build speeds aren't affected and neither are the date based weightings for hull/base sizes. I tend to get habitats before I get t3 weaponry.

OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 01:04 on May 28, 2018

Black Pants
Jan 16, 2008

Such comfortable, magical pants!
Lipstick Apathy

Baronjutter posted:

Not really, and you're right the amount of busywork has skyrocketed. Now not only do you have planet tiles to click click click you also have like 40 starbases to click, it's basically 10 more tiles per starbase to fuss with, and god help you when you want to upgrade your defense stations. No idea why the game doesn't have a simple "upgrade all" button somewhere. Nope, you gotta click like 4 times per station 40 times to keep your defense platforms up to date.

???



OwlFancier posted:

Sorry I mean are the extra 3 tiles applied to habitats you build before you take master builders or is it only ones you build afterwards?

Immediate upgrade to all habitats that you own. (Even works for the 6-tile void habitats you build and the 12-tile one you start on with the Voidborne origin civic)

Black Pants fucked around with this message at 01:33 on May 28, 2018

really queer Christmas
Apr 22, 2014

I really REALLY hate how ground combat works. Combat width will say like 10 but I only see two or three armies actually dealing and taking damage. And the enemy armies seem to always gang up on exactly one of mine, meaning they take all the damage, don’t disengage in time, and die. Not a big deal except that ground combat seems to have a disproportionate effect on war exhaustion since they seem to lose none from losing a whole planet, but I take 5 for losing 2 armies.

It just feels like it’s better to bombard until the armies are gone but that’s really slow and boring...especially since the AI decided to build like 5 fortresses and a war factory on one planet. It’s definitely built to benefit the defensive player, but the chokepoint system already does that and makes going on the offense (which is like 75% of the fun in the game right now) unfun and a slog.

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"


I mean for ALL stations, you still have to click into the station, defenses, upgrade all one at a time per starbase. Then do this 20-40 times depending on the size of your empire. Why not one click?

Shugojin
Sep 6, 2007

THE TAIL THAT BURNS TWICE AS BRIGHT...


really queer Christmas posted:

I really REALLY hate how ground combat works. Combat width will say like 10 but I only see two or three armies actually dealing and taking damage. And the enemy armies seem to always gang up on exactly one of mine, meaning they take all the damage, don’t disengage in time, and die. Not a big deal except that ground combat seems to have a disproportionate effect on war exhaustion since they seem to lose none from losing a whole planet, but I take 5 for losing 2 armies.

It just feels like it’s better to bombard until the armies are gone but that’s really slow and boring...especially since the AI decided to build like 5 fortresses and a war factory on one planet. It’s definitely built to benefit the defensive player, but the chokepoint system already does that and makes going on the offense (which is like 75% of the fun in the game right now) unfun and a slog.

Defense army death doesn't count towards war exhaustion, only assault army death does

feller
Jul 5, 2006


Baronjutter posted:

I mean for ALL stations, you still have to click into the station, defenses, upgrade all one at a time per starbase. Then do this 20-40 times depending on the size of your empire. Why not one click?

Do you really build defense platforms on every starbase?

bewilderment
Nov 22, 2007
man what



Does my old strategy of not building science labs unless they're on a science lab still viable? Just checking since researching stuff early game seems like it takes a super long time (like, 3 to 5 years) and maybe I'm used to my old lategame save but I feel like it used to be faster than that.

Black Pants
Jan 16, 2008

Such comfortable, magical pants!
Lipstick Apathy
I just had to pause and wonder if I really was happy getting Cybrex in a game I just started (had to start over for NSC). A ringworld is nice and all but it's going to be a longass time before I can restore it. Meanwhile, I had Vaultaum last game, and getting that 30 to all research planet so early was ridiculously nice. Especially so for the happiness of my materialistic faction that wanted to be bleeding edge tech-wise.

ZypherIM
Nov 8, 2010

"I want to see what she's in love with."

PSA: If you're eyeing mastery of nature, know that -edict cost things do come into play with it. So if you have the appropriate ruler you can get -10%, there is a tech for -15%, and a civic for -20%, dropping the cost per planet to 55 influence. Makes the range of when it is useful much larger.

edit: Also not really listed anywhere: finishing an uplift on a species gives you 500 influence.

ZypherIM fucked around with this message at 04:00 on May 28, 2018

Psychotic Weasel
Jun 24, 2004

Bang! You're dead.

bewilderment posted:

Does my old strategy of not building science labs unless they're on a science lab still viable? Just checking since researching stuff early game seems like it takes a super long time (like, 3 to 5 years) and maybe I'm used to my old lategame save but I feel like it used to be faster than that.

This is a strategy I've been sticking to pretty much since day one and I've never had a problem keeping up. May not always be number 1 in tech if I decide to go really, really wide but I'm usually never far behind. Like energy and minerals your main income for science in the early game will be orbital stations so try to build a few where you can afford it. Going from 6-7 science to 9-10 can considerably shorten research times in the first couple decades while you're initial planets develop.

Starting over after finishing a game can always feel like a slog since the changes in 2.0 really slowed the early game down.

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Senor Dog posted:

Do you really build defense platforms on every starbase?

yeah, defense in depth, feels good. Every maxed out station is a speedbump, but after the enemy hits that 4th speedbump in a row they're suddenly manageable.

Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005

Try reading some manga!


Clever Betty

ZypherIM posted:

edit: Also not really listed anywhere: finishing an uplift on a species gives you 500 influence.
Yeah, I'm not exactly sure why it doesn't mention this anywhere. It's extremely useful and tactically powerful to not uplift until you need a lot of influence.

Tomn
Aug 23, 2007

And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands

Rookersh posted:

And my game bugged out and broke right at the end.

This is a long shot, but does quitting and reloading the save help? That sometimes kicks the AI in the rear end and "reboots" whatever they were thinking about.

Skippy McPants
Mar 19, 2009

Really digging the new anomalies. Finding a lot more stuff that isn't just +X to a given resource.

Also, I dunno if it's ethic specific, but my Fanatic Materialists have found both a general and governer AIs various shipwrecks.

Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005

Try reading some manga!


Clever Betty
Events that force interactions with other empires are good, they should do more of those.

iospace
Jan 19, 2038


I found the Pioneer 11 Plaque :3:

Grammar-Bolshevik
Oct 12, 2017
Anyone find that anomaly where the object is orbiting too quickly to scan,

then when you slow it down it is an organic case,

then when you open it there are 3 vials,

the Green adds habitability to your primary species

Red adds very strong to your primary species

an blue adds 80 year lifespans?


Shout out for this drat good event btw

I went genetic mastery, gave my species robust along with maxing out their other traits, then got the lifespan bonus, now their lifespan is 250 years. :D

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

A couple L-gate questions:
-A couple times now I've had L-gates on the map but never got the event to start gathering up the clues. I even conquered the L-gate system, nothing... I assume this is a bug? Is there an event I can trigger to fix?
-I've never seen more than one L-gate on the map, what file would I look into forcing more to spawn? It's no fun having this cool new feature that 90% of the time you'll never have accessible.
-Does the AI ever do L-gate things?

Libluini
May 18, 2012

I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...
Grimey Drawer

Baronjutter posted:

A couple L-gate questions:
-Does the AI ever do L-gate things?

That would be a question I liked answered, too. In my current game my allies have an L-gate just outside of my borders, and I've started to get L-gate insights just by knowing about it (or I guess because our allies really, really like us) sitting there. Would be funny if the UN rips the gate open, unleashes hell, and we're again forced to come to humanity's aid, like in all my other games with humans in them. :shepface:

Nightgull
Jan 22, 2018

TOTALLY NOT A CONSERVATIVE
or a fucking nazi
Best new event is the rubics cube one.

feller
Jul 5, 2006


Baronjutter posted:

yeah, defense in depth, feels good. Every maxed out station is a speedbump, but after the enemy hits that 4th speedbump in a row they're suddenly manageable.

That’s pretty cool. I tried that once after 2.0 and abandoned it because of the mentioned upgrade problems. I think defense platforms could have their upkeep increased a tiny bit in exchange for auto upgrading.

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Rookersh
Aug 19, 2010
Ok, I'm dropping this match. My goal for the whole game was to recruit these last 2-3 groups into my Fed, and the fact they got snatched right at the end because of a stupid Fallen Empire getting pissy about a Gaia World/them both being in a war as the Contingency showed up just really annoys me. I was hoping to do a last defense scenario thing where I built a colony ship of every race and saved them in my core lands while the Contingency ravaged the galaxy, only to save it at the end and then reseed everything, but according to Invictus/how well the AI is doing in my game, they'll probably win without me.

So basically I have nothing really to keep working for in this game.

Now I'm planning for game #2. I really want to do Space Rome. We have an Emperor and his will is truth. Our enemies will be conquered and turned into vassals that will be forced to assist us in our campaigns/growth. But ultimately all can attain the prized goal of being citizens with full rights, they just must first serve in the space Legions. Thinking like Authoritarian/Xenophile/Militarist all at 1 point or so. Generally want to lean into the Space Rome feel, so your average Emperor will be ok, some Emperors will be genuinely benevolent and good for the Empire, and some are just real shitters.

It seems like I can set this through grabbing the Citizen Service perk? But it also seems like Citizen Service is only allowed for Democratic/Oligarchic.

Kinda wondering if this is possible.

Rookersh fucked around with this message at 08:18 on May 28, 2018

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