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So I discovered last night the bug where crisis fleet power is completely wrong. A contingency world popped up a jump away from one of my larger old colonies. The newly spawned machine world had 2x 40k fleets and 1 70k fleet. I had maybe 200k in fleet power available. I think great, this must be like the scouting wave of prethoryns maybe I can nip this in the bud. So I gather all my fleets (yay for gateways) and jump in. As soon as combat is joined the contingency's fleet power jumps to 2x 120k fleets and 1x 300k fleet. I can't disengage. The next contingency world spawns on the other side of my empire next to one of my two main shipyards. I guess this is what I get for bringing the truth of the shroud to all those robot using empires. People get so mad when you shine all their worlds 
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Jun 1, 2018 15:17
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Grammar-Bolshevik posted:I cant remember where it was previously in the thread, but some dude falsely 'corrected' me regarding the grey tempest essentially ignoring armour an shields for the bulk of its damage. Their strike craft AND their 400 dmg main cannon ignores armour an shields. So build to max out hull an get point defence. I can't double check from work but the grey tempest cruiser, which makes up the bulk of their fleet, has about half their slots dedicated to strike craft and the rest are those energy siphon or disruptor type beams. They also have something like 100 strike craft each IIRC so there a lot of them to fight off. The XL mount on their motherships fires so infrequently I don't see it as much of a threat, you'll lose a battleship or two if you're unlucky with the opening fire but beyond that it's not the primary threat. Going shield heavy may protect you from their energy weapons but overwhelming PD defense wrecks their fighter swarm and will give you an edge, completely nullifying half their weapons. Edit: hobbesmaster posted:So I discovered last night the bug where crisis fleet power is completely wrong. A contingency world popped up a jump away from one of my larger old colonies. The newly spawned machine world had 2x 40k fleets and 1 70k fleet. I had maybe 200k in fleet power available. Psychotic Weasel fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Jun 1, 2018 |
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Jun 1, 2018 15:17
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So how many people actually bother with the ship designer? In my last 2 games (Captain difficulty) I've had no problem with fleet composition. It helps that I can consistently out-tech the AI, but even against the contingency and the prethoryns I didn't have much trouble. Is tailoring your fleets more necessary at higher difficulties? I'm also wary of bothering with the ship designer because the fleet manager is still so wonky. Even with only auto-generated designs, with all fleets fully upgraded, still it sometimes wants to reinforce all of my corvettes, thinking I'm at 0/50, when I'm actually full or even over (like 80/50, which happens if you do reinforce unnecessarily).
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Jun 1, 2018 15:24
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Not strictly related to Stellaris, but Alexis Kennedy, the writer of the Horizon Signal DLC has released his first game under his own development company - Cultist Simulator. Definitely more of a Fallen London and Sunless Sea vibe than Worm-In-Waiting, but the writing style and themes of half-glimpsed, extradimensional horror are unmistakable. If you like reading, it's a good game to check out.
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Jun 1, 2018 15:25
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I actually find sometimes the fleet manager insists I'm at full strength, despite clearly not according to numbers shown.
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Jun 1, 2018 15:26
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The Bramble posted:Not strictly related to Stellaris, but Alexis Kennedy, the writer of the Horizon Signal DLC has released his first game under his own development company - Cultist Simulator. Definitely more of a Fallen London and Sunless Sea vibe than Worm-In-Waiting, but the writing style and themes of half-glimpsed, extradimensional horror are unmistakable. If you like reading, it's a good game to check out. I was playing this all last night. It's super hard and unintuitive but that's sort of the point. Like the basic interface and rules of the game mechanics are something you have to find out yourself.
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Jun 1, 2018 15:34
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Thrasophius posted:So its a double whammy. Corvette spam was already a thing but now its even more so. Seems like an unintentional buff to me. Slower overmap movement means where you have your fleet matters more, and having one big deathball is very weak to other strategies. Later on you can make gateways to connect disparate parts of your empire if you desire, and jump drives are a thing still. Increased sensor range becomes useful as you're able to react to threats soon. Changing this too much is going to start messing with how a lot of things are balanced currently, I'd recommend actually playing the current game before digging into mods. Despite what people go on about, corvettes aren't the be-all and end-all of ship+fleet design. The computer doesn't take steps to counter your fleet composition so the downsides to missile/torp corvettes aren't exploited. For example cruisers/battleships can get 75%+ hit rate against 90% evasion corvettes, and field guns that do enough damage that your corvettes get maybe 1 roll for disengage (I can go dig up the tech layout for kinetic artillery to have 75% hit rate if you like, other weapons are more accurate). If you force the fight in a black hole system there is a -50% chance to disengage, there is a starbase module with -20%, and a titan aura for another -10%. The AI also doesn't build border fortresses, so you're not fighting into an extra 60% hp/armor/dmg and negative auras (like -20% shields, or that -20% disengage chance). Basically the only thing that isn't really viable right now are strike craft, the edge that a torp corvette has over a mixed fleet is not big enough for that to be the difference maker against the AI. Having a smaller reactive corvette fleet that you combine with border forts while the bulk of your fleet is on the attack can work just fine. Larger ship sizes will have more chances to disengage, and larger weapon slots do better damage (useful for attacking stations or when the AI fields larger ship sizes). As always, the key to winning wars is more about building a stronger economy and turning that into a stronger fleet and winning one sided fights.
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Jun 1, 2018 15:44
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Clanpot Shake posted:So how many people actually bother with the ship designer? In my last 2 games (Captain difficulty) I've had no problem with fleet composition. It helps that I can consistently out-tech the AI, but even against the contingency and the prethoryns I didn't have much trouble. Is tailoring your fleets more necessary at higher difficulties? the fleet manager is only wonky when you use auto-generated designs, manual ones never encounter that bug and yeah, you generally need to design your ships on admiral+ because you're never going to pull ahead of the strongest AI empires. it does make a real difference in battle if your fleet composition is very good.
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Jun 1, 2018 15:51
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Jazerus posted:the fleet manager is only wonky when you use auto-generated designs, manual ones never encounter that bug
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Jun 1, 2018 15:56
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So what should these "mixed" fleets look like then?
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Jun 1, 2018 15:58
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hobbesmaster posted:So what should these "mixed" fleets look like then? enough swarm corvettes to match your enemy's swarm, and then whatever back-line designs you prefer. there's no magic bullet, it varies depending on the enemy's fleets. corvette swarms take advantage of the way combat works by simplifying it for you - just outnumber the other guy's corvettes and you're fine against most AI ship designs, because they rarely build corvette-killer big ships. but you can, and totally should, do so yourself, especially if you find yourself up against a corvette swarmer in multiplayer.
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Jun 1, 2018 16:07
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The fleet designer could use another QOL pass but it is still loads better than what we had before. I usually maintain three fleets, depending on my Empire size. A mono vette fleet with afterburners and a + movement Admiral for hunting pirates and generally moving quickly, and then an A and B team of mixed fleet (10/5/5/2/1) vette/destroyer/cruiser/battleship/Titan mix. Add additional fleets as needed. Usually end up with two vette designs (pirate killer w burners, and one with torp and autocannon but not sure w/ 2.1.1b meta), two destroyers (plasma, kinetic/pd), one cruiser (kinetic)… one battleship (cannon/torp), and Titan with whatever I can field at that point. Gyshall fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Jun 1, 2018 |
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Jun 1, 2018 16:25
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Jazerus posted:
I don't know that that's really true, playing on Grand Admiral as Exterminators I just managed to pull ahead of the whole galaxy minus the Fallen Empires. Robits be stronk.
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Jun 1, 2018 16:33
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Hey Wiz, you should talk to the UI guys about adding a map mode that colors systems with special stuff: strategic resources, enclaves, black holes, nebula (biggest one for me), pulsar/etc. Nebulas are the biggest thing that are hard for me to pin down what systems they're covering, but being able to identify areas of interest easier would be handy.
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Jun 1, 2018 18:00
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ZypherIM posted:Hey Wiz, you should talk to the UI guys about adding a map mode that colors systems with special stuff: strategic resources, enclaves, black holes, nebula (biggest one for me), pulsar/etc. Nebulas are the biggest thing that are hard for me to pin down what systems they're covering, but being able to identify areas of interest easier would be handy. I'd also like an actual live sensor range indicator, because as it stands there's no difference between explored and active sensor coverage.
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Jun 1, 2018 18:05
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The fleet pathfinder AI seems to still poop itself where L-Gates are involved, because while the Fanatic Purifiers have zero problem nearly overwhelming my gate starbases with wave after wave coming through their L-Gate, if I don't hand-hold my fleets who are in or decide to route through the L-Cluster they'll get stuck warping out of the very first system they start autopiloting out of until I tell them to do something else. As soon as I complete a regular gate network to shore up this weakness though, suddenly navigating L-Gates are no problem at all for the gremlins steering my ships  e: the Dyson Sphere I built around a red giant ended up being just a bit smaller than the star itself, so you can't even see it, and I can't resize with planet_size because the Dyson Sphere is blocking me from selecting the star 
Autism Sneaks fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Jun 1, 2018 |
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Jun 1, 2018 19:09
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I had all my fleets constantly trying to path via a gate in an empire that had closed borders to me. They'd just go to one of my gates and sit there, even though I had a gate in the next system over vOv
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Jun 1, 2018 19:56
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Clanpot Shake posted:So how many people actually bother with the ship designer? In my last 2 games (Captain difficulty) I've had no problem with fleet composition. It helps that I can consistently out-tech the AI, but even against the contingency and the prethoryns I didn't have much trouble. Is tailoring your fleets more necessary at higher difficulties? It may be that you're running into an issue where fleet manager doesn't work well with manual fleet management that is occurs when merging fleets or building directly from a shipyard with an orbiting fleet. If you only use fleet manager, or refuse to use fleet manager, you should run into no issues. Otherwise you may occasionally have to prune your fleet requirements in the manager.
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Jun 1, 2018 20:17
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Also yeah turn off auto design immediately (bottom left hand corner) if you're going to be doing any sort of customization.
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Jun 1, 2018 20:27
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Psychotic Weasel posted:I can't double check from work but the grey tempest cruiser, which makes up the bulk of their fleet, has about half their slots dedicated to strike craft and the rest are those energy siphon or disruptor type beams. They also have something like 100 strike craft each IIRC so there a lot of them to fight off. The XL mount on their motherships fires so infrequently I don't see it as much of a threat, you'll lose a battleship or two if you're unlucky with the opening fire but beyond that it's not the primary threat. Going shield heavy may protect you from their energy weapons but overwhelming PD defense wrecks their fighter swarm and will give you an edge, completely nullifying half their weapons. I found I couldn't use cruisers against their mothership, since I didn't have enough DPS to drop the thing before it poppped all my cruisers. It seemed to fire frequently enough on my game that it was better to have a bunch of destroyers in there to soak up hits while the Torpvettes did the hardwork.
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Jun 1, 2018 20:29
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Kaal posted:If you only use fleet manager, or refuse to use fleet manager, you should run into no issues. This isn't true in my experience. In my most recent playthrough (2.1, now 2.1.1) fleet manager would insist that my automatically generated corvettes of the Whatever class were, for some reason, different from my current Whatever class corvettes and insist the whole fleet had to be rebuilt. I tried changing the corvette classes, turning autogeneration off, etc., etc., and nothing worked. I eventually had enough of a break between wars and mineral surplus that I could afford to just scrap all the ships that weren't recognized properly as the Whatever class and switch over to non-autogenerated Whatever2 class ships.
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Jun 1, 2018 20:49
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ulmont posted:This isn't true in my experience. In my most recent playthrough (2.1, now 2.1.1) fleet manager would insist that my automatically generated corvettes of the Whatever class were, for some reason, different from my current Whatever class corvettes and insist the whole fleet had to be rebuilt. I tried changing the corvette classes, turning autogeneration off, etc., etc., and nothing worked. I eventually had enough of a break between wars and mineral surplus that I could afford to just scrap all the ships that weren't recognized properly as the Whatever class and switch over to non-autogenerated Whatever2 class ships. never auto-generate just engage with the shipbuilding system, it's not hard or overly time-consuming
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Jun 1, 2018 20:54
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Jazerus posted:never auto-generate 1. Or fun.* 2. The computer has** to auto-generate; I don't see any reason to gain an advantage in this phase of the game by hand-tweaking. But yeah, I've gone to generating a new class, pushing "autocomplete", and then using that. I thought that the interaction with the fleet manager had been fixed, though. *Tastes may differ, as evidenced by the number of people defending non-hyperdrive FTL. **At least I assume this is what the computer is doing.
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Jun 1, 2018 21:16
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NAh the fleet manager is still mostly garbage right up to the end game where you're not upgrading designs anymore. At that point the reinforce button is a godsend.
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Jun 1, 2018 21:22
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Fleet manager is great. 1. Turn off auto-generated designs. 2. If you have a need for ships and have spare fleet cap, add more ships to current fleets 3. If you have a need for ships and have spare naval capacity, create a new fleet 4. If 2 or 3 is met, and it's time to start building, mash that reinforce button 5. Upgrade ships in the ship designer whenever you want. Upgrade your fleets after you do this, every time. I wish there was a drat army designer because I HATE going to every drat planet and manually making more armies.
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Jun 1, 2018 21:28
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I've had a lot of troubles with this game, but the fleet manager has never been one of them. I don't know how other people are playing or what the heck they are doing with their designs, but it's been incredibly reliable and intuitive to me nearly since the day it came out, but specially now with some fixes and upgrades. Like, I'll design some ships, add those designs to a fleet, click reinforce and bam I have a fleet. I can go into any of those designs, change some parts, update some weapons, and with a single click they all perfectly upgrade. When ships are lost in battle, a single click fills the fleet back up. Sometimes the ships moving to reinforce get destroyed en route but that's my fault for reinforcing while the fleet is deep in enemy territory. Sometimes those "destroyed" ships actually escaped and now are cluttering up my outliner as a bunch of single-ship fleets, but a little shift clicking and a merge command fixes that all up. Turn off auto-design and auto-upgrade, when you want to update a design actually update that specific design not make a new design (even then the fleet manager can handle this via refit), and you shouldn't have any problems at all.
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Jun 1, 2018 21:32
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Baronjutter posted:I've had a lot of troubles with this game, but the fleet manager has never been one of them. I don't know how other people are playing or what the heck they are doing with their designs, Baronjutter posted:Turn off auto-design and auto-upgrade, I shouldn’t have to disable auto design to use the fleet manager.
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Jun 1, 2018 21:41
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I use my own designs and always turn on auto update, I build exclusively through fleet manager, and it works perfectly for me?ulmont posted:I shouldn’t have to disable auto design to use the fleet manager. It's based on designs, though. It is a manager for your fleet designs, ergo you must have consistent designs to use the fleet design manager... It handles auto upgrade fine but if you're wanting the game to randomly design you new ships then what do you need the fleet manager for? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Jun 1, 2018 |
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Jun 1, 2018 21:42
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OwlFancier posted:I use my own designs and always turn on auto update, I build exclusively through fleet manager, and it works perfectly for me? Right, and using auto-designed ships should also work fine. Except it very much does not.
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Jun 1, 2018 21:44
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Spanish Matlock posted:Right, and using auto-designed ships should also work fine. Except it very much does not. I've literally never used auto design because I don't understand how you're supposed to. You're not allowed to make your own designs, apparently, when it's turned on, so what does it do, just randomly create designs? How do you build guided weapon corvettes? Because it doesn't start you with one? Literally the first thing the auto designer does is wrong, I question why you would want to use it for anything?
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Jun 1, 2018 21:46
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ulmont posted:I think you know. You usually don't. Most of the time, the auto designs and auto upgrades are...fine? I haven't seen the old bugs that originated this thought in a long time, like the one where you'd have 0/50 ships in a fleet with 50 (old design) ships in it. I'm just gunshy after all that. Doing it manually, I know it will be right. Doing auto? It'll just probably be right.
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Jun 1, 2018 21:46
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OwlFancier posted:I've literally never used auto design because I don't understand how you're supposed to. You're not allowed to make your own designs, apparently, when it's turned on, so what does it do, just randomly create designs? How do you build guided weapon corvettes? Because it doesn't start you with one? Some people don’t care about optimizing the efficieny of their fleets woah crazy I know
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Jun 1, 2018 21:56
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Auto design is rolling the dice and sometimes comes up with completely terrible designs. Auto upgrade is cool and good.
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Jun 1, 2018 21:56
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Xae posted:Auto design is rolling the dice and sometimes comes up with completely terrible designs. Basically this - auto upgrade is just swapping out old stuff with newer, strictly better versions Chalks fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Jun 1, 2018 |
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Jun 1, 2018 22:00
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ulmont posted:I shouldn’t have to disable auto design to use the fleet manager. It is fine to complain that there is a bug with the fleet manager. However, when the solution is literally "turn off auto-update" it is rather silly to talk about how the fleet manager is bad. If you don't want to do anything with the ship designer (weird, bad choice but whatever), nothing is stopping you from opening the ship designer, click auto-complete, click save, open your fleet manager, tell each fleet to upgrade. The benefits of the fleet manager are huge even with auto-design being buggy.
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Jun 1, 2018 22:02
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Senor Dog posted:Some people don’t care about optimizing the efficieny of their fleets woah crazy I know But, like... Xae posted:Auto design is rolling the dice and sometimes comes up with completely terrible designs. So it's like, "I don't really enjoy choosing what planets to colonize, so I want the game to do it at random." You don't have to spend a lot of time in the fleet designer but I can't imagine not having, you know, some suggestions for it? And the autodesigner is literally a binary choice between having input and not having input. Hey I'd quite like a big long range ship with big guns "TOO BAD I MADE A CRUISER WITH A HANGAR MODULE AND SMALL MOUNTS YOU WILL USE THIS NOW" OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Jun 1, 2018 |
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Jun 1, 2018 22:06
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Is there more of a fleet building tutorial than the one quoted in the OP? The ship building seems like something I would enjoy doing, but it's a lot to take in.
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Jun 1, 2018 22:14
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I just wish there was a button that said "auto upgrade and if there's not enough energy to do it then remove a shield and replace it with armor." The ratio can change a lot earlier depending on tech rolls for systems vs reactor upgrades.
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Jun 1, 2018 22:18
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I make my own designs because I’m a big dumb goon but it is pretty silly the fleet manager doesn’t work with the default ship settings
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Jun 1, 2018 22:25
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Blowjob Overtime posted:Is there more of a fleet building tutorial than the one quoted in the OP? The ship building seems like something I would enjoy doing, but it's a lot to take in. Really you just have to look at the + and - effectiveness for all the guns you unlock, but general rule is that kinetic guns are good at knocking out shields, energy weapons are good at knocking out armour, and guided weapons ignore shields and do extra damage to hull/armour but can be intercepted by point defence. The other half is looking at the construction of things you fight, all the prescripted enemies have fairly specialist and specific designs. Mining drones for example have lots of health and armour but no shields, and their weapons do reduced damage to shields and have limited tracking and accuracy, so the way to beat them is high evasion corvettes with lasers or plasma cannons and all shield defences. The main concepts apart from "design against your opponent's weaknesses" are probably evasion and tracking and disengagement. Evasion is the ability of a ship to avoid being hit by a weapon, small ships have more of it, big ships have less, so while small ships have less health, they are also less likely to get hit. Evasion is countered by tracking, tracking is the ability of weapons to hit things with high evasion scores. The way the two interact is the game subtracts tracking from evasion to get the final modifier. So if a gun has 50 tracking and is shooting at a thing with 60 evasion, the thing with 60 evasion has a 10% chance to dodge, which is then added to the weapons' inherent chance to miss (let's say 25% for a railgun, they're listed as 75% accurate) and you get a final to hit chance of around 65%. So about two thirds of the shots from that gun will hit that target. This is relevant because the bigger a gun is, generally, the worse it tracks. So bigger gun mounts are worse at hitting small, fast moving targets. This is offset by bigger gun mounts generally doing more damage than two mounts of the next size down, so if you're fighting something that can't dodge, you want the biggest gun you can get. You also don't at all benefit from tracking if it's higher than the target's evasion, so you want to ideally match the tracking level of your guns to about the size of ship you're fighting. Cruisers and destroyers can dodge a bit, but they don't need the amount of tracking on a small size gun to be hit reliably, so they tend to be most reliably hit for good damage, by medium guns. Stations can't evade at all, so they are most efficiently killed by big guns. There are lots of little things that help tracking. Starbases have some for free, and some combat computers (picket and platform) grant extra tracking as you improve them, so bear in mind that starbases, platforms, and picket ships will be better at hitting small targets than other ships with their armament normally would be. Disengagement is a chance for ships to warp out of combat and not die when they lose. Disengaged ships rejoin the fleet if you win or lose, if the entire fleet loses the disengaged ships show up at a starbase somewhere after a while. Smaller ships have higher disengagement rates, so they tend to be destroyed less often when knocked out. Disengagement works by rolling whenever you take damage at less than half health, so it cuts into your ships effective combat time but it stops them dying, generally a very good trade. The caveat to this is that if a ship gets knocked from 50% health to dead in one shot, it will never disengage, because it never sees the attack coming. So fighting things like void clouds is hilariously deadly to corvettes because they do obscene amounts of damage per hit. Similarly anything using an XL weapon or heavy artillery will do a serious number on any small ships they hit, they might not hit often, but they'll obliterate what they do hit more reliably than small guns will. Consider this when picking fights with things that do a lot of damage per shot. Terrain effects can affect disengagement too, as can your fleet doctrine when you complete the supremacy tradition. Generally you want a lot of disengagement chance, but fighting somewhere with less of it can make your fights more decisive against the enemy. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Jun 1, 2018 |
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Jun 1, 2018 22:45
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