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I guess it depends on what you mean by a dream IC job? If it just money, it's not that hard to get a 200k+ total comp job as an experienced IC in NYC or the Bay Area if you go somewhere that isn't a startup trying to pay you in options monopoly money. Granted, this tech and computer touching gravy train could come to a screeching halt one day, but I've been waiting on that to happen for like 10 years.
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Jun 2, 2018 18:29
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mrmcd posted:Granted, this tech and computer touching gravy train could come to a screeching halt one day, but I've been waiting on that to happen for like 10 years. Yeah, same. In 2011 I vacillated on whether to go contracting for the big bucks since those are the first jobs axed when the market tightens, I was sure in my heart that it would all be over in 3 years. 2013 I went for it anyway and I'm still going. The place I contract at is opening up a position for a lead developer. This is a role parallel to a tech architect and I was one of the people who applied for it last time and didn't get it. I'm kinda tempted to try again, but equally the application process is a nightmare and I've lost all confidence in myself for that sort of role.
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Jun 2, 2018 18:56
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hendersa posted:Some of us relish the role of being an IC because it gives us time to privately consult on the side to double/triple the amount we can make. Sometimes, looking for the right IC role isn't about putting your eggs in the right basket, but rather about making sure that you always have more than one basket in the works. Are you able to talk some about how you started your consulting side business? It's something I've always been interested in, but finding clients seems tough.
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Jun 2, 2018 19:12
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New Yorp New Yorp posted:5% is a standard "okay" raise. 10% is great. 20% means they are adjusting for underpaying you in the first place.
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Jun 2, 2018 19:44
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mrmcd posted:I guess it depends on what you mean by a dream IC job? If it just money, it's not that hard to get a 200k+ total comp job as an experienced IC in NYC or the Bay Area if you go somewhere that isn't a startup trying to pay you in options monopoly money. True, but I suppose I'm talking more about those job markets with lower salaries that don't have such a critical mass of employers and jobs. Once you step outside of markets like NYC and work your way out towards the middle of the US, the job market is less dense and the cost of living is much lower. There are plenty of places where you can live a very nice 9-5 suburban lifestyle with your family in a house doing pretty boring dev work for $60k-$70k a year. It must be terribly frustrating for those experienced, ambitious engineers that can't relocate to one of the hotter market areas to experience a six-figure salary. But, they get their benefits in the form of a more laid-back lifestyle. The upshot is that if you're still a workaholic or someone that wishes to stay busy, consulting can really augment a lower IC 9-5 salary a lot and give you the opportunity to experience the  without living in one of the primary job markets. You might also end up working on something far more interesting than your day job. 2nd Rate Poster posted:Are you able to talk some about how you started your consulting side business? It's something I've always been interested in, but finding clients seems tough. When looking at the typical scenario where a consultant works with an organization, the reason for hiring the consultant is to get skills or expertise that don't exist (or that there aren't enough of) within the company. The reason for that need might be the difficulty in finding the right person for the company to hire. Or, the need is a short-term need (prototyping, venture capital pitch, etc.). Either way, there is an immediate need and hiring a consultant or contractor is deemed the best path forward by the company. I would say that the two big challenges in consulting are finding the work and establishing your credentials as the right person to do it. The credentials portion is a bit more concrete, as you can build a portfolio of projects as you work your way through your career. Working at easily-recognized companies during the course of your career certainly helps. Open source projects help. Writing that helps establish you as an expert on the material (industry blog posts, magazine articles, books) goes a long way. Get really good at what you do. Ideally, if the company was to open a job req for a full-time position to do the work, you'd be a super strong candidate. Finding the work (or having the work find you) is the more difficult part. Hopefully, you've been networking as you've moved through your career. I don't mean shoving your business card into the face and hands of anyone and everyone and being pushy about how great you are. Seriously, don't be that guy. I mean becoming known as "that one guy from this other job I worked who really knows his stuff and is good to work with." Think back through the jobs that you've had and you'll probably remember a few engineers that were really good at their jobs that you would trust with their doing something really, really well. These engineers are the types that you'd recommend if your company had an opening and you were asked if you knew anyone who would be good. Your goal should be to become that engineer. It doesn't happen overnight, but rather happens over the course of your career. Make friends, demonstrate competence, and generally be that awesome person that gets things done. Hopefully, you've been doing this already. Roughly 40% of the consulting work I do is either someone I worked with pinging me to work on a specific project or me pinging them asking if there are any projects behind schedule that I could help out with. If you want to start consulting, this is where you start finding your first jobs. Track down old co-workers and ask them if their teams could use your assistance. The other 60% is from companies contacting me out of the blue asking if I can talk with them about a potential project. Almost every one of these contacts is from a manager that was given my name from one of his/her IC reports. The IC making the referral was digging around for info and came across my name from a response on a mailing list, forums post, code I wrote, paper/article I authored, conference talk I gave, or something like that. Sometimes, the IC had sent me a mail asking me specific technical questions that I responded to with a solid answer. You'd think that answering questions "for free" is a bad way to do business if you want to get a job providing solutions, right? But, I've always had really good results by doing this. Plus, after a while a lot of the questions are just a cut-and-paste of the same answers you gave someone else. Writing a book is, in my experience, the best way to establish your expertise and drive unsolicited work inquiries to you. PM me if you want tips and info on how to get started doing that. Having a website that shows off the things that you work on and your expertise helps. I don't use social media or a LinkedIn profile, so I can't speak to using those to advertise yourself and bolster your business. I get enough junk mail from recruiters as it is, so I'm just fine with staying off the standard tech talent radar. I have never cold-called a company and tried to solicit business. I suppose you could try doing that by looking for companies with a lot of open positions and then using LinkedIn or strategic googling to contact a manager and pitch yourself as a consultant. That is very much not my style and I would feel uncomfortable doing it like that. Niche expertise pays a hefty premium, but jobs are fewer and far between. It is also harder to establish yourself as an expert in these areas. Generalist work is much more common and easier to get. Such work doesn't require an expert, though one is certainly welcome if the expertise can be had at a good price. Pick your poison. Start as a generalist and work towards niche work when possible.
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Jun 2, 2018 21:22
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hendersa posted:Some of us relish the role of being an IC because it gives us time to privately consult on the side to double/triple the amount we can make. Sometimes, looking for the right IC role isn't about putting your eggs in the right basket, but rather about making sure that you always have more than one basket in the works. My problem has generally been my primary employer forbidding moonlighting. Not sure how to work around that. Pretty sure I dont even own IP I create on my own time and equipment. :/ Any ideas on working multiple projects when the one with guaranteed money wants exclusive access to your work output without paying a premium for the privilege?
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Jun 3, 2018 03:30
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leper khan posted:My problem has generally been my primary employer forbidding moonlighting. Not sure how to work around that. Pretty sure I dont even own IP I create on my own time and equipment. :/ Don't work for employers who do this, full-stop. Don't make the mistakes that I did where you have to get burned by this sort of policy (also, non-competes) before you realize it's never worth it. Think of it this way - always invest in your future. It's more less expected - or at least not frowned upon - if software developers switch jobs every ~3 years or so. Some of the things that make this possible and profitable are going to be the stuff you do outside of work hours. Never agree to anything that limits your ability to get the gently caress out of a bad situation, or to own what you do on your own time with your own property. speng31b fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Jun 3, 2018 |
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Jun 3, 2018 03:38
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speng31b posted:Don't work for employers who do this, full-stop. Don't make the mistakes that I did where you have to get burned by this sort of policy (also, non-competes) before you realize it's never worth it. It wasnt even something I thought about, because when I was in California those covenants arent enforceable. If I knew they were in Massachusetts, I probably wouldnt have moved.  Maybe Ill just move back in a couple years. I could do without the whole winter thing anyway.
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Jun 3, 2018 12:05
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I've changed jobs 5 times over my career, once every 2-3 years and they've all felt like its a great move and I've enjoyed it since. Moving on has always been easily justifiable to myself. But this upcoming move which is 2 weeks away, is starting to make me panic and has me scrambling for reasons other than the job itself to not go through with it. The place seems great, the money even better, personal and technical opportunities abounds but I've got fear like I've never had before, until I realised: This is the first job move I've done where I have actual adult poo poo to deal with; I now have a wife, mortgage, and two children who are about to start full time education in some form or another. I feel like I can't gently caress up at all, not that I did, it just feels dangerous to change jobs for some reason, even if in the UK everyone is desperate for developers/devops/infra/SRE etc. so i'm set for the next 5 years easily. It's completely illogical and I'm just venting, but I think kids really change your career priorities; my interview questions have shifted from "what tech do you use?" to "can I choose my hours?" 
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Jun 3, 2018 13:50
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Cancelbot posted:It's completely illogical and I'm just venting, but I think kids really change your career priorities; my interview questions have shifted from "what tech do you use?" to "can I choose my hours?" I just finished doing this move. Instead of taking opportunities to transition to private/commercial companies w/ higher pay I opted to move to a super-liberal college town and work in a small tech group of at one of the universities because I have a 3 yr old. I just felt like having the opportunity to basically pick the environment/area he grows up in was worth the trade. (And honestly I'm not sure how big of a trade off it was, I'm lucky that the group I'm in is VERY tech-forward compared to most higher-ed IS/IT.) Ever since I had a kid I'm terrified of long-term stability of positions. I know that I could get a job pretty easily with my background and resume but once he's in school my options are pretty limited to remote work and local (and I now live basically in the middle of nowhere).
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Jun 3, 2018 14:09
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JehovahsWetness posted:I just finished doing this move. Instead of taking opportunities to transition to private/commercial companies w/ higher pay I opted to move to a super-liberal college town and work in a small tech group of at one of the universities because I have a 3 yr old. I just felt like having the opportunity to basically pick the environment/area he grows up in was worth the trade. (And honestly I'm not sure how big of a trade off it was, I'm lucky that the group I'm in is VERY tech-forward compared to most higher-ed IS/IT.) Speaking as someone who grew up with parents in the military, moving a couple times while in elementary school isnt the end of the world. Not saying you shouldnt make your family a priority, but dont give up consideration of positions that are better for you (and maybe also them) without discussion. 
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Jun 3, 2018 16:55
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Cancelbot posted:On promotions: Does anyone have an end state in terms of their career? Or even know what they'd do when they get there? I'm in a bit of a similar position. I used to have a progression I was chasing and now I've gotten where I wanted I'm not sure what's next. These days I'm 50/50 between hands on technical and people management. If I were to go back to full time IC I think I'd feel really limited in my impact, but dropping any more technical time I worry I'd lose interest. I really enjoy my role right now but looking forward I don't know what's next. Sitting in the loose tech equivalent of "middle management" forever more sounds terrible in the abstract, but short of jumping to a leadership role at a smallish startup I don't see where I'd progress to from here?
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Jun 3, 2018 22:15
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I too have had these though since I had a kid and it has influenced what I want for my next job. I'm more inclined to work for stable and "future-proof" organization. I never worked in IT for banks but it looks like a possible good choice.
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Jun 4, 2018 05:08
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All I want is a position that is interesting, brings genuine value, has good work/life balance, will last indefinitely, and pays well enough to let me buy a condo or something. Im like 3/5 for that, but Im scared of anything simply ending someday.
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Jun 4, 2018 14:10
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That seems borderline impossible.
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Jun 4, 2018 14:27
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Depends on what you consider to be "genuine value" and "interesting" tbh
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Jun 4, 2018 14:35
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Anyone here had a Google front end interview? Was it still as algorithm heavy as a standard SWE interview?
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Jun 4, 2018 14:42
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Doing my due diligence with respect to looking for remote jobs and yikes, they almost all seem to be full-stack. Am I looking in the wrong place or is this the nature of a lot of remote work for some reason?
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Jun 4, 2018 16:42
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Good Will Hrunting posted:Doing my due diligence with respect to looking for remote jobs and yikes, they almost all seem to be full-stack. Am I looking in the wrong place or is this the nature of a lot of remote work for some reason? I'd say it's less remote work having a full stack trend and more all work having a full stack trend. What are you looking to do, specifically?
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Jun 4, 2018 17:00
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BurntCornMuffin posted:I'd say it's less remote work having a full stack trend and more all work having a full stack trend. The back-end/BL/API/microservice, whatever term works in the respective industry I guess, side of things. Or data pipeline side I suppose. Not really partial to any tech stack, as long as I'm working on scalability problems and not UI stuff and not Node.
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Jun 4, 2018 17:02
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No reason not to apply to those (unless you're just too drat busy applying to all those other non-full-stack jobs  to squeeze any more applications in). Just be clear about your goals during interviews; some companies have large enough teams to have room for a diverse set of skills.
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Jun 4, 2018 18:12
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Cancelbot posted:It's completely illogical and I'm just venting, but I think kids really change your career priorities; my interview questions have shifted from "what tech do you use?" to "can I choose my hours?" It's not illogical at all. When you have more than yourself to worry about, switching careers effects more than just you.
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Jun 4, 2018 18:49
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dantheman650 posted:Anyone here had a Google front end interview? Was it still as algorithm heavy as a standard SWE interview? Yes. Just some questions _may_ concern the DOM. But the rest were all based on trees/graphs/etc.
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Jun 4, 2018 18:51
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Che Delilas posted:No reason not to apply to those (unless you're just too drat busy applying to all those other non-full-stack jobs I'm applying to a lot of all types of jobs. It's easy to find non-full-stack jobs that aren't remote but a high % of the remote work seems to be full-stack. I think you're very accurate with the "large enough teams" thing and most of the companies I've seen that are remote are generally pretty small.
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Jun 4, 2018 19:13
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Cancelbot posted:It's completely illogical and I'm just venting, but I think kids really change your career priorities; my interview questions have shifted from "what tech do you use?" to "can I choose my hours?" Dude, it's completely logical to reach some kind of "end game" role and switch career priorities. I've job-hopped for 9 years and am currently on a team that has everything I've wanted. I make 120k (in Denver, not SF), work remotely, have a pension, free healthcare, tons of PTO...however, I'm on a dead-end team maintaining legacy .NET apps. So, everything I want except a modern tech stack. My skills are stagnating but I just can't bring myself to give a poo poo. After several phone interviews I've concluded that no one pays this well in conjunction with working from home, good benefits, and a reasonable work/life balance. Every place wants you in the office being "collaborative" 60 hrs/week and offers dogshit benefits with a lousy 401k match. The only places with good salary/benefits and interesting work are in SF/Seattle where CoL is 3x as high and the interview process is like cramming for a college exam. My priorities have become work/life balance, stability and benefits over anything else, 100%. I'm sick of the loving rat race.
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Jun 4, 2018 19:45
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Thanks for the responses, they've put me at ease over this. I'm sorta 50% coding and 50% "influencing" which is bullshit talk for selling the cool poo poo we wanna do to managers, some budgeting, sign offs, and a little bit of actual people management. It's a nice deal overall and the company I'm about to join wanted me for that ability to sit between the less human friendly coders and management. I just got into a panic over feeling like I'm stuck career wise, but the rat race has worn me down too. I want to slowly ascend the ladder through being the anomaly that stuck around for 5 years all while seeing my kids and taking some proper holidays.
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Jun 4, 2018 19:59
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ForrestPUMP69 posted:I'm sick of the loving rat race. Part of me feels like it's going to get worse as the fetishization of the 10X engineer who started at age 3 continues. Sure there are lots of engineering jobs but there are a lot of people interested in getting into engineering because of the bucks. It's honestly a really tough career trajectory to forecast, in my eyes.
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Jun 4, 2018 20:34
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At today's team meeting I mentioned that as the new TL I wanted to set up 1:1s with everyone, to which the response was "wait, you're the TL now?" We never sent out an announcement email after the old TL left. 
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Jun 4, 2018 20:47
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:At today's team meeting I mentioned that as the new TL I wanted to set up 1:1s with everyone, to which the response was "wait, you're the TL now?" We never sent out an announcement email after the old TL left. I've been on my boss's case about forgetting to make some recent announcements. Its not a big deal but its awkward seeing a new username in slack and diplomatically asking "hi are you new who are you?". In our most recent 1:1, boss starts with "last time you mentioned poor team announcements, I think were doing better?" My answer was "who's Nicole?"
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Jun 5, 2018 01:09
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I've been forced to confront this question in the last week. I started a job a couple months ago as a senior developer and my eventual goal was to work toward a team lead position, either here or somewhere else. I figured that would have kept me busy for a couple years. I just got promoted to team lead and I'm freaking out a little. I don't know what I want from here. I'm happy to stay here for a few years, but I know myself and I know I'll want something "more" after that. I'm kind of hooked on advancement I guess?
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Jun 5, 2018 13:24
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Nothing wrong with wanting to advance your career, as long as you don't climb over the broken corpses of your former peers to get there.
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Jun 5, 2018 14:50
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Che Delilas posted:Nothing wrong with wanting to advance your career, as long as you don't climb over the broken corpses of your former peers to get there. The corpses of your underlings is fine.
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Jun 5, 2018 16:17
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I myself fear that I will never grow out of being a junior developer.
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Jun 5, 2018 22:26
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Pollyanna posted:I myself fear that I will never grow out of being a junior developer. I had an interview via Hangouts today and even though I botched a small OOP thing in our Collabedit* I'm going on-site for mid-level interviews. If I can do it, anyone can! *(According to them at least. I still have no idea what they were going for quite exactly with the question because it seemed way easier than I imagined and I was focused on demoing X language instead of OOP skillz.)
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Jun 5, 2018 22:30
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Oh god I had five meetings today
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Jun 5, 2018 22:57
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Pollyanna posted:I myself fear that I will never grow out of being a junior developer. It's not bad. Decent pay with few responsibilities.
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Jun 5, 2018 23:24
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Pollyanna posted:I myself fear that I will never grow out of being a junior developer. Walk the walk and talk the talk. Titles are just titles. Hiring managers (the good ones, at least) ignore them in the hiring process anyways because anyone can give out any rando title. It's the easiest thing an employer can do to placate unhappy devs.
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Jun 5, 2018 23:57
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Oh god I had five meetings today Welcome to being a team lead.
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Jun 6, 2018 00:40
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Team lead - where you're not eligible for director or executive positions and be handed 2x the workload and responsibilities of seniors but maybe 15% more pay. Bitter? Noooo waaayyyy no sir, not mee....
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Jun 6, 2018 01:38
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Pollyanna posted:I myself fear that I will never grow out of being a junior developer. I've talked to a few perfectly talented people who have this attitude, but it's something that I've never experienced. I wonder if they feel that way because it's trivial for an engineer to know how averages work and have heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect, so they overcompensate by thinking any feelings of competency are the D-K.
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