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DeadFatDuckFat posted:So what was up with the jewelry/piercings on the dude (lieutenant?) who was dying at the end? I feel like I missed a scene or something. it's left unexplained in the show. in real life, i think it's from a story one of the indigenous people told the explorers who came looking for franklin? he said that they found a british corpse all dressed up as such. by and large i think i am happy to put it down to "horrifying insanity from fatigue, starvation and lead"
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Jun 1, 2018 05:23
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Ah, yeah I figured it was just from going nuts but I wasn't sure if it was supposed to signify anything else since it was just really weird.
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Jun 1, 2018 05:41
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DeadFatDuckFat posted:So what was up with the jewelry/piercings on the dude (lieutenant?) who was dying at the end? I feel like I missed a scene or something. That dude got way artistic with his body modification. It was foreshadowed in an earlier scene between Lt. Goldmember and Captain Crozier, where they were joking about how the men deserved gold medals and every gold thing there is if they made it back home. Towards the end the lieutenant took that very seriously.
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Jun 1, 2018 06:14
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etalian posted:Well you didn't need more complex causes given how the men were on a starvation diet while having to haul 4000 pound sledges by hand. Doesn't really explain how the RIP Franklin note had the wrong year. Why the huge officer death count in said note. Why a boat was found filled with 40 pounds of chocolate and two skeletons. Why they had 3 years worth of food but were starving to death in year 3. Why those 4000 pound sledges had a fuckton of books and other random poo poo in them. Why they resorted to cannibalism instead of eating seal meat in that innuit story. Why they splintered up so hard. These are off the top of my head and im no expert on the expedition.
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Jun 1, 2018 07:54
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Those Inuit histories of their encounters are chilling! Great read!
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Jun 1, 2018 15:28
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Despera posted:Doesn't really explain how the RIP Franklin note had the wrong year. Why the huge officer death count in said note. Why a boat was found filled with 40 pounds of chocolate and two skeletons. Why they had 3 years worth of food but were starving to death in year 3. Why those 4000 pound sledges had a fuckton of books and other random poo poo in them. Why they resorted to cannibalism instead of eating seal meat in that innuit story. Why they splintered up so hard. Scurvy can be an explanation for all of that. Heck, even now there’s some doctors stressing that if a patient shows up with new, unexplained emotional/mental problems, doctors should run a blood panel to look at vitamin c levels and see if there’s a deficiency. That part can show up before you hit full-blown scurvy. And since scurvy and high lead concentration teamed up on these guys, along with starvation diet, no wonder they all went weird. As for the high officer death count, could have just been coincidence, lousy weather, etc. LadyPictureShow fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Jun 1, 2018 |
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Jun 1, 2018 17:02
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LadyPictureShow posted:Scurvy can be an explanation for all of that. Heck, even now there’s some doctors stressing that if a patient shows up with new, unexplained emotional/mental problems, doctors should run a blood panel to look at vitamin c levels and see if there’s a deficiency. That part can show up before you hit full-blown scurvy. I read somewhere that the lead line water tanks might have hit the officers harder since, as officers you'd demand fresh baked bread and not hardtack.
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Jun 1, 2018 20:46
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:Those Inuit histories of their encounters are chilling! Great read! In a related note Inuit history Louie Kamookak passed away this year. He worked to interview inuit families on Franklin expedition stories passed down as oral history. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/29/inuit-oral-historian-who-pointed-way-to-franklin-shipwrecks-dies-aged-58
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Jun 1, 2018 20:51
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etalian posted:In a related note Inuit history Louie Kamookak passed away this year. Oh wow, that’s sad. It’s also such a bummer that a lot that could have possibly been explained about the Franklin expedition, at least once they left the ships/got to the death march part is that the Inuit were basically ignored out of hand, except for the really lurid bits of ‘they ate each other’. David Woodman wrote two books in the 90s Unravelling the Franklin Mystery: Inuit Testimony and Strangers Among Us. Some bits from an in-depth review of Strangers, which based on Inuit testimony collected, suggests that it probably wasn’t just all of the crew leaving at once or that Crozier and Fitzjames were just scurvy-addled morons by that point to make such a decision. quote:He believes that the goal of reaching the Fish River was more likely to hunt the game which was reported to be abundant in the area, or to contact the Inuit who were known to congregate there. He argues that one or both of Franklin's ships were later re-manned; one almost certainly was, as it was discovered by a coastal band of Inuit anchored off an island far to the south in Queen Maud Gulf. Furthermore, while those who remained on King William Island eventually starved to death (not before resorting to cannibalism, an Inuit observation verified by recent forensic evidence), the crew of the surviving ship evidently remained through an additional winter (the Inuit reported that the ship was housed-in as for winter quarters, and its gang-plank was lowered), and some number of survivors left her and made one final attempt to reach a British outpost. quote:There are also a number of instances where the behavior of these strangers seems strange indeed, such as when they deliberately scared away some Inuit boys -- hardly a coherent act for desperate survivors. Still, some evidence, such as tales of sign-posts with pointing hands (a known trademark of other Franklin camps) found along the land route eastward of the Fish River, admit of no alternate explanation; whatever else can be said, it's clear that the whole story of Franklin survivors cannot be reconciled with the previously accepted tale of a single abandonment followed by a single drive south to the Fish River, much less an ascent of it. quote:Woodman's final case -- and his strongest -- is for a small party of three or four men who were said to have spent a season with a Netsilik hunter named Too-shoo-art-thariu. These survivors arrived in the spring, and stayed through the summer and possibly even the winter following, eventually heading south towards the Hudson's Bay post at Fort Churchill. One of these survivors was indeed said to be named "Aglooka" -- which was Captain Crozier's Inuit name, acquired through name-exchange many years previous when he was a young midshipman with Parry's expedition. Unfortunately, many white explorers were also known as "Aglooka," and so the precise identity of this man would be almost impossible to determine, were it not for two strong pieces of corroborative evidence. Firstly, this man told his Inuit hosts that he had been with Parry at Igloolik, a fact they could not have otherwise learned; Crozier was in fact the only Franklin Expedition member who had. Secondly, another young Inuk, apparently a son of Too-shoo-art-thariu, told almost the same story to a whaling captain many years later, and another whaling captain down in Hudson's Bay heard that Aglooka/Crozier had made it as far as Chesterfield Inlet. Sorry for the long bits, but all of the Inuit testimony fascinates me because it goes against a lot of what has been speculated previously, and had mostly been shrugged off in the 1860s. I wonder, despite the strong oral tradition among the Inuits, how much information has been lost. Since their were rumored sightings of Crozier and ‘a steward’ (yay! He saved Jopson after all!  ) in the mid to late 1850s, then maybe, say, Crozier and some crew doubled back to a ship and wintered there, while Fitzjames’s crew pushed on hunting for game and looking to come across Inuit groups.
LadyPictureShow fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Jun 1, 2018 |
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Jun 1, 2018 22:54
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I kind of dislike the end of the show due to them pretty much tossing out all of the (holy poo poo the amount of) research that Simmons did for the book. Handwaving Silence's leaving because ~made-up eskimo reason~ was so not what the end of the book was about. Kind of reminds me of the end of Dune the book compared to Dune the movie. "It Rains"  I guess the show producers realized that to finish as the book did it would take a couple more episodes. So we got "we kicked her out. It's our way" 
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Jun 1, 2018 23:18
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LadyPictureShow posted:Oh wow, that’s sad. It’s also such a bummer that a lot that could have possibly been explained about the Franklin expedition, at least once they left the ships/got to the death march part is that the Inuit were basically ignored out of hand, except for the really lurid bits of ‘they ate each other’. Well figuring out what happened is challenging since following expeditions only found a single note in a cairn that explained he current status. It is pretty amazing how the Inuit oral histories were so accurate all the way down to helping locate the wrecks of the Erebus. The horror story of the Batavia by comparison had multiple primary sources since many of the survivors kept detailed diaries recording all the events that occurred in the disaster.
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Jun 1, 2018 23:21
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Hasselblad posted:I kind of dislike the end of the show due to them pretty much tossing out all of the (holy poo poo the amount of) research that Simmons did for the book. Handwaving Silence's leaving because ~made-up eskimo reason~ was so not what the end of the book was about. Kind of reminds me of the end of Dune the book compared to Dune the movie. Honestly I thought the show declined in quality from one episode to the next and the ending was pretty bad. The book ending is much better, in my opinion. That said, the show was good when it was good. I paid for the whole season, despite saying I would wait, after watching the first couple episodes for free on the AMC website.
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Jun 2, 2018 00:10
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Professor Shark posted:Honestly I thought the show declined in quality from one episode to the next and the ending was pretty bad. The book ending is much better, in my opinion. If I had not read the book as I watched I may feel differently. The show ending was just jarring compared to the book. Having read the book I can understand Crozier's POV at the end when he keeps his identity secret. But the show alone just goes from "we booted Silence" to him sitting on the ice with a harpoon and some other eskimo woman/kids and doesn't actually explain it, like at all.
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Jun 2, 2018 00:34
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etalian posted:Well figuring out what happened is challenging since following expeditions only found a single note in a cairn that explained he current status. It is pretty amazing how the Inuit oral histories were so accurate all the way down to helping locate the wrecks of the Erebus. Back in the early days of trying to figure out what happened/finding the remains of the parties, Thomas Barry, in 1872, had interviewed some Inuit and he reported: quote:They said nothing about valuables being put in the cairn or cache; only the books- putting their hands upon the journals in my cabin. They said the books the white men put in the cache were of no value to them, the Netchelli, and they did nothing about them, and they were still there. There was dispute about that story, most figuring the interviewees were referring to a cairn that Rae (a Franklin searcher) erected during his work, since they couldn’t count the number of years ‘on their fingers’ and their responses translated to ‘long time ago’ and ‘a great many winters past [since seeing white men other than Barry and Potter]’ and that the pidgin Inuktitut used in the interview was pooh-poohed for its accuracy. I’m wondering how much potential info was lost for not checking that out. Aside from the RIP Franklin paper, about all they’ve got in found writings to this day is the ‘Peglar Papers’ (excerpts of which the titles ‘Terror Camp Clear’ and ‘The C, The C, The Open C’ came from), which was found with a skeleton searchers figured to be Armitage. E: Yeah the Batavia was creepy as Hell too LadyPictureShow fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Jun 2, 2018 |
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Jun 2, 2018 00:54
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I actually like the show ending and agree with the showrunners thought process: Basically, having her marry Crozier at the end doesn't pass the Bechdel Test and Silence needed her own arc. In the same way that Crozier can never go back to England after losing the expedition, Silence can never return to her people after losing Tunnbaaq. Also, Crozier living happily ever after as an outsider felt untrue: having him survive but only subsist seemed more honest to how it would have been for him. edit - found the quote: quote:David and Soo, tell me about ending a show like this. There is the historical record ending, and there is the Dan Simmons book ending. But the ending of this series is all you guys. How did it come to be, and why? Toxic Fart Syndrome fucked around with this message at 04:26 on Jun 2, 2018 |
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Jun 2, 2018 04:22
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LadyPictureShow posted:Scurvy can be an explanation for all of that. Heck, even now there’s some doctors stressing that if a patient shows up with new, unexplained emotional/mental problems, doctors should run a blood panel to look at vitamin c levels and see if there’s a deficiency. That part can show up before you hit full-blown scurvy. Theres too many unexplained things for scurvy to be the answer. Also they had 8000 tins with vegetables and meat so if they did all succumb to scurvy thats just another mystery. 9/24 to 15/110 is not a coincidence.
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Jun 2, 2018 07:39
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etalian posted:Well figuring out what happened is challenging since following expeditions only found a single note in a cairn that explained he current status. It is pretty amazing how the Inuit oral histories were so accurate all the way down to helping locate the wrecks of the Erebus. All our knowledge of the Batavia mutiny is basically Paelsarts testimony taken from probably tortured mutineers. There were not many publishing houses over their in indonesia. Pretty much everyone involved with the mutiny died thousands of miles away with their accounts unrecorded. The hero of the story for instance, Webbe Hayes who saved all the survivors lives.... we dont even know what the gently caress happened to him. The mutiny was only a couple months anyway and yes we know much more about it because of Paelstarts records than the years spent on and around King William Island.
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Jun 2, 2018 07:45
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:Silence can never return to her people after losing Tunnbaaq. But see, this is precisely the gobbledygook that veered away from what Tuunbaq actually was. If anything, the death of book Tuunbaq would have been celebrated by the eskimos. Again, had I not read the book, the show ending would have been a decent ending. But the way the show ended pretty much seems like the show producers really did not understand what (book) Tuunbaq actually was to the eskimo people and just wanted a quick ending to the series. Hasselblad fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Jun 2, 2018 |
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Jun 2, 2018 15:01
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Hasselblad posted:But see, this is precisely the gobbledygook that veered away from what Tuunbaq actually was. If anything, the death of book Tuunbaq would have been celebrated by the eskimos. Again, had I not read the book, the show ending would have been a decent ending. But the way the show ended pretty much seems like the show producers really did not understand what (book) Tuunbaq actually was to the eskimo people and just wanted a quick ending to the series. You would think they would be glad to be rid of their man-bear incel thanks to heroes like Mr Blanky
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Jun 2, 2018 18:06
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One of the Terror documentaries on youtube puts forth the theory that the high officer death count early in the expedition was due to botulism. The idea is that, while frozen in the pack, a hunting party killed something, with Franklin and the rest of the senior staff naturally calling dibs on the fresh meat. The meat was improperly stored (possibly over the winter), and so Franklin was vomiting and making GBS threads himself before eventually expiring from respiratory failure. This wouldn't make for a very sexy story back home, so Crozier and Fitzsimmons didn't record the details. Can't remember if there is an actual basis for the theory or if it's just speculation, but the documentaries on youtube about this are great.
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Jun 2, 2018 19:54
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The scene where Bridgens tells the story of the March of the Ten Thousand is one of my favorite TV scenes in recent memory. It's absolutely incredible Also Hickey lapsing into an Irish accent on the gallows is great
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Jun 2, 2018 23:23
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A professor of dentistry was inspecting some of the skeletal teeth and put forward that Addison’s disease could have offed a number of the crew, relating to the scurvy/lead/botulism. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/08/170814121049.htm quote:The Schwatka expedition (1878–80) documented that several Inuit families had observed sailors of the Franklin expedition dragging ship’s boats in Washington Bay on the southwest coast of King William Island, Nunavut, Canada. The Inuit reported that the men appeared thin and the mouths of some of them were hard, dry, and black. Many Franklin scholars believe from this description that the surviving crews were suffering from scurvy and possibly lead poisoning.
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Jun 2, 2018 23:37
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Another article on late Inuit historian Louie Kamookak https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-louie-kamookak-58-teacher-and-inuit-historian-was-the-last-great/ quote:Louie Iriniq Kamookak was born on Aug. 26, 1959, during a famine at a seal-hunting camp on the Boothia Peninsula near Taloyoak, formerly known as Spence Bay. He was the second oldest in a large family belonging to George Kamookak, an Inuit hunter, and his wife, Mary. After Louie’s birth his mother was so starved she couldn’t produce breast milk. His first meals were mashed raw seal blubber.
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Jun 3, 2018 01:31
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Thoroughly enjoying this chat. As an aside, I'm currently in Hobart and I visited the tiny Maritime Museum today where they have Franklin's pistols, which he left with his wife when he returned to England in 1843. I must admit none of this would have been of interest to me had I not watched the TV show, but it's cool to unexpectedly see real life connections like this.
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Jun 3, 2018 07:13
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also i would really encourage everyone to watch the "Inside the Terror" special features through AMC streaming on every episode. gives you great insights from both the actors and the production crew.
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Jun 3, 2018 20:53
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Moltke posted:One of the Terror documentaries on youtube puts forth the theory that the high officer death count early in the expedition was due to botulism. Officers generally got acess to better rations and the tins were probably a godsend to the standard salted pork. One bad can could kill a few officers with the remaining officers barring the eating of cans. This would how they got through 3 years of rations in two. Theres not a lot of proof for this but its the simpliest plausible answer. It would also explain the probable mutiny that occured. Some men starving on the island ignored croziers orders south and returned to the ships where the previously forbidden cans still were. Despera fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Jun 4, 2018 |
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Jun 4, 2018 04:47
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Great moments in 19th century arctic exploration and Franklin's first failure. quote:Whatever doubts the officers may have had about his story gave way to gratitude when he presented them with meat, which he said had come from a hare and partridge he had managed to kill on the way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppermine_Expedition_of_1819%E2%80%9322
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Jun 6, 2018 09:47
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https://norlender.no/shop-men/island-378 If you're looking for a Blanky sweater, forks not included.
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Jun 8, 2018 17:43
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Despera posted:Great moments in 19th century arctic exploration and Franklin's first failure. It was was pretty amusing how the Brits turned this diaster of a expedition into some sort of heroic story. This story pretty showed that Franklin had failings as a leader and mainly got his role because the other candidates such as Crozier got snubbed for having the wrong background.
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Jun 8, 2018 20:20
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British lionization of polar disasters is what they did best, look at Scott.
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Jun 8, 2018 20:44
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Free Market Mambo posted:British lionization of polar disasters is what they did best, look at Scott. lemons into lemonade
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Jun 8, 2018 21:22
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Free Market Mambo posted:https://norlender.no/shop-men/island-378 https://norlender.no/shop-men/narvik Ah, if only I had a spare $330, assuming prices are American. I'll keep it in mind as I'm sick of my jumpers getting holes in them.
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Jun 8, 2018 21:36
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Free Market Mambo posted:British lionization of polar disasters is what they did best, look at Scott. Of African exploration debacles too. It's interesting to read contemporary accounts of Stanley's expeditions and then contrast them to modern accounts that use multiple primary sources. If there's a hell, Stanley's likely burning in it.
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Jun 8, 2018 22:32
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Scott's failed expedition was similar in many ways especially the hubris in bringing the latest and greatest technology that wasn't adapted for use in the environment.
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Jun 9, 2018 00:20
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Did the Burke and Wills expedition get posted here before? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burke_and_Wills_expedition 19 men went on an expedition across Australia to try and map a route from Melbourne to the Gulf of Carpinteria. Some of the info reminded me of the unnecessary items found in the Franklin expedition sledges, like the books and silverware. quote:The expedition took a large amount of equipment, including enough food to last two years, a cedar-topped oak camp table with two chairs, rockets, flags and a Chinese gong; the equipment all together weighed as much as 20 tonnes Burke and Wills got impatient because the govt was offering a big monetary reward for a south-north crossing, and they thought they’d get beaten to the prize, so they split the group. Later, Burke decided ‘poo poo yeah, forget waiting out this Australian summer!’ So Burke, Wills, Charles Gray and John King set out to the gulf. On the return to the depot where they left everyone else they were short on food, monsoons hit, so they resorted to shooting and eating their camels (yes they imported camels) and horse. Gray killed a big ol’ python, which they ate and they got dysentery right after. Burke, who was also sick, thought Gray was bullshitting about being sick and beat him (possibly to death). The three surviving guys, Burke, Wills, and King, made it back to where they had split off from the rest of the expedition, but found those guys had ditched out a few hours before, figuring they were never coming back. Wills and King wanted to go the route indicated in the letter left in the supply cache, but Burke said ‘Nah’, and they headed for Mount Hopeless, but forgot to remark the cache. A resupply doubled back, didn’t see any new markings, and figured Burke and co never came back. Burke, Wills, and King had to kill and abandon their last two camels, couldn’t carry supplies and were exhausted and malnourished. But then, Aborigines showed up and were giving them food in exchange for sugar. They were saved! ...until Burke shot at one of them and they all ran. Burke and Wills died from either malnutrition or beriberi, but King came across a friendly group of Aborigines who took him in. Instead to shooting at them like Burke had, he instead shot at birds to help earn his keep. He hung out for three months until a rescue expedition found him, and he lived for 11 more years though his health was pretty bad for the rest of his life. It was a big ol clusterfuck, basically , and out of the four men that reached the gulf of Carpinteria, only John King made it back alive. They gave him a gold watch and a yearly pension.
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Jun 9, 2018 01:16
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LadyPictureShow posted:On the return to the depot where they left everyone else they were short on food, monsoons hit, so they resorted to shooting and eating their camels (yes they imported camels) and horse. Australia has 1 mil.+ feral camels now because of expeditions like this.
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Jun 10, 2018 11:24
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LadyPictureShow posted:Did the Burke and Wills expedition get posted here before? Also in typical heroic failure fashion they got statues and special coins to remember the expedition.
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Jun 10, 2018 13:44
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Jikes posted:Of African exploration debacles too. It's interesting to read contemporary accounts of Stanley's expeditions and then contrast them to modern accounts that use multiple primary sources. If there's a hell, Stanley's likely burning in it. Not everyone can be a Captain Spaulding 
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Jun 10, 2018 15:18
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Mistakes into miracles Scott and an mpreg Franklin walk hand in hand in front of the frozen-in Erebus and Terror.
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Jun 10, 2018 16:27
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bitchymcjones posted:Australia has 1 mil.+ feral camels now because of expeditions like this. drat, really? That’s kind of like how Germany has a raccoon problem because a baron or Kaiser imported them because he wanted to hunt different stuff. Or the multitude of snakes and Capybaras on the loose in Florida. Are the camels mostly in the outback? etalian posted:Also in typical heroic failure fashion they got statues and special coins to remember the expedition. John King (the only survivor of the whole trek) only got a puddly little plaque/monument. LadyPictureShow fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Jun 10, 2018 |
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Jun 10, 2018 17:00
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