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Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011

What about Darnic the Baby Killing Nazi??

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Liffrea
Jun 16, 2013

Your gacha-bragging struck a nerve and accidentally set off my self-defense instincts. Sorry about that.
Manaka Sajyou from Fate/Prototype/Prototype: Fragments of Blue & Silver is also a strong contender for "evillest Fate character".

Among all the other heinous poo poo she pulled, deciding to feed your 8 year sister to the world-destroying Beast you're trying to birth and personally dragging her to its mouth to throw her inside while she's screaming and struggling and begging you to stop because she talked once to the guy you're obsessively in love with is pretty much at the top of the "evil" scale.

She's vile.

Cuntellectual posted:

Basically:

He almost won the Moon grail war, but couldn't actually use the grail because he was an NPC based off of a dead person, and not actually that peson. So he set up shop outside the grail room's door with his servant, the absurdly overpowered Savior, and asked everyone who got to him "Hey can you wish on the grail to make the grail war permanent?" because in Twice's mind, war brings out the best in people.

Yeah, but Twice also got the "I agree with you but I'm still going to fight you because we don't have the right to decide things for the people of now because we're dead" thing from Hakuno in Extra and also basically saves Hakuno's rear end via pep talk towards the end of CCC. He's bad, but it's also pretty clear that he's supposed to be seen as wrong but not evil-evil.

Last Encore Twice seems to be a different story though.

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.

:colbert:
We should skip ahead to massacre villain if we are talking about type moon evil villain. Nrvnqsr come into mind.

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!
I could at least believe Kirei would be a better person if he wasn't stuck with whatever weird brand of psychopathy he was unlucky enough to get on the genetic lottery

WeedlordGoku69
Feb 12, 2015

by Cyrano4747

Cuntellectual posted:

Basically:

He almost won the Moon grail war, but couldn't actually use the grail because he was an NPC based off of a dead person, and not actually that peson. So he set up shop outside the grail room's door with his servant, the absurdly overpowered Savior, and asked everyone who got to him "Hey can you wish on the grail to make the grail war permanent?" because in Twice's mind, war brings out the best in people.

When the near-winner obviously said no, that's insane, he shrugged and had Savior turn them into a bloody smear on the floor before waiting for the next poor schmuck.

What confused you? If it was Last Encore related you are not alone.

that makes sense, the T-M wiki just explained all this using a whole lot of words I don't understand because I only have a passing familiarity with F/E and Nasu always takes the longest way around to describe fairly simple things. there was also a whole bio of the living person too and i wasn't sure if you were talking about the living person or the NPC or what the hell their relation is or what. that wiki page was really just a whole lot of :psyduck: to me.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012

LORD OF BOOTY posted:

that makes sense, the T-M wiki just explained all this using a whole lot of words I don't understand because I only have a passing familiarity with F/E and Nasu always takes the longest way around to describe fairly simple things. there was also a whole bio of the living person too and i wasn't sure if you were talking about the living person or the NPC or what the hell their relation is or what. that wiki page was really just a whole lot of :psyduck: to me.

A lot of the TM wiki explanations of things (and, by extension, the sources like the Complete Material books that they seem to be taken from) are confusing like that. Like the original concept for First Folio from Complete Material IV: "a tome that can alter or falsify the outcome of a phenomenon occurring within sight for a limited number of instances. While functionally useless in the face of an enemy that outclasses him in every attribute, it has a chance of inflicting death upon otherwise defeatable opponents if skillfully deployed." That's hilariously vague.

taser rates
Mar 30, 2010
A lot of TM Wiki stuff is straight up made up by whoever wrote the article too, don't take anything it says for given, I honestly think things would be better off if it didn't exist.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

Blockhouse posted:

I could at least believe Kirei would be a better person if he wasn't stuck with whatever weird brand of psychopathy he was unlucky enough to get on the genetic lottery

I mean, the dude was literally addicted to evil for his entire life. That’s a pretty tough hill to get over, morally speaking.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015

17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the fifth sixth some day

Darth Walrus posted:

I mean, the dude was literally addicted to evil for his entire life. That’s a pretty tough hill to get over, morally speaking.

He also spent most of his life sincerely attempting to be a good person and find a correct way to live that'd satisfy him, nearly killing himself in despair when he realized he couldn't.

Hunt11
Jul 24, 2013

Grimey Drawer
The real issue for Kirei is he ran into Gilgamesh who was in full hedonist mode as in Gilgamesh with the mindset he had before Enkindu started to help change him for the better.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011

A favorite Kirei detail of mine is his Christmas sermons were very popular because they were highly cathartic due to their depressing nature.

Rand Brittain
Mar 25, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

Silver2195 posted:

A lot of the TM wiki explanations of things (and, by extension, the sources like the Complete Material books that they seem to be taken from) are confusing like that. Like the original concept for First Folio from Complete Material IV: "a tome that can alter or falsify the outcome of a phenomenon occurring within sight for a limited number of instances. While functionally useless in the face of an enemy that outclasses him in every attribute, it has a chance of inflicting death upon otherwise defeatable opponents if skillfully deployed." That's hilariously vague.

They also seem to rely heavily on the Word of God, without trying to create any context for the very small amount of things the author has said about them, which are often extremely tangential.

Daxing Dan
Apr 2, 2015

Damn it, why it does need to remain only four bullets!?

Bakanogami posted:

Fun fact, did you know that in the standalone PSP port of the Hollow Ataraxia hanafuda minigame, Gilles meets Nero and confirms that while Nero and Jeanne are both Saberfaces, Nero is not a Jeanneface, unlike Saber, who is.

(no translated version, sadly)

https://twitter.com/kenny_FGO/status/1005686021625794560/video/1

A translation for those who are interested:

GILLES DE RAIS: This is not right. Simply being a blonde, short-haired crossdresser does not make you Jeanne.
You there, you must change. You may try again after you have altered your lifestyle.

NERO: Wha!? I don't know how, but I've just suffered the greatest insult in my entire life!

RYUNOSUKE: Incredible, Sir! It's not like anyone with that design will do, huh?
Is it the chest? And the skirt? I know, right? Girls who have both their front and back fully exposed aren't my type, either.
She's one of those theater types, right? While she's going in a decent direction, you're the better artist, Sir.

GILLES: Hahaha, you flatter me, Ryunosuke. While it is true that I have superior aesthetic sense, you should not underestimate this Heroic Spirit.
This very woman is one of our predecessors, the demon emperor who produced many deviant works of art that cast all who witnessed or heard them into hell.
Is that not so, Your Majesty, the Fifth Emperor? I could not understand before I lost Jeanne, but I do now that I have delved into the demonic arts.
The political policy of creating twisted, dreadful works that ensnare the people within the bonds of fear! Truly, truly this is Gianism indeed!
While I cannot add her to the Jeanne lookalike squad, I do respect the life she lived! Now, teach us your ways, if you would be so kind!

NERO: You must pay for this! Being cleaved in twain would be too good for you! I'll carve you into pieces and make you into stew!
Besides, it was only a stroke of misfortune that caused my creations to be feared! A stroke of misfortune that turned them into demon fusions at a 95% rate!
Don't you dare liken them to your heresies!

ARCHER: Hm, I suppose it would be merciful to refrain from mentioning that Saber's Domus Aurea was the origin of the word "grotesque."

Cuntellectual
Aug 6, 2010

LORD OF BOOTY posted:

that makes sense, the T-M wiki just explained all this using a whole lot of words I don't understand because I only have a passing familiarity with F/E and Nasu always takes the longest way around to describe fairly simple things. there was also a whole bio of the living person too and i wasn't sure if you were talking about the living person or the NPC or what the hell their relation is or what. that wiki page was really just a whole lot of :psyduck: to me.

T-M stuff suffers from a lot of it either having no or just really, really bad translations. Then it gets mixed up with people's personal theories and so on.

The deal with Human!Twice is that he was a regular guy from a country that broke out into war, and was traumatized by it. He then died in a terrorist attack, and was used as the basis for Moon Cell!Twice.

The only real important thing about Human!Twice is a bit of dramatic irony; Human!Hakuno suffered from a rare genetic disease of some kind, and Twice was the only doctor that could treat it. When Twice was killed, Hakuno had to be frozen in the hopes someone else could cure it, eventually.

Incidentally, Human!Hakuno is still around, somewhere. I don't think there's been any official confirmation on what exactly is up with her since Extra, CCC, Extella and Extella Link all follow the AI Hakuno.


Now, on the topic of Extra here is something I haven't been able to figure out even remotely how it's explained.

In Extra, everything is in cyberspace due to magic being gone. As a result the Moon Cell's summoning system isn't making a copy of the 'original' in the Throne like a regular summoning, it's making a copy based off of the data it has. As a result, the servants in Extra are basically AI and not magic ghosts. So how do their memories transfer to the 'actual' selves in FGO? Robin Hood, Liz and Nero all know each other. :psyduck:

It's possible I just got something wrong somewhere but it's... Weird.

Rand Brittain posted:

They also seem to rely heavily on the Word of God, without trying to create any context for the very small amount of things the author has said about them, which are often extremely tangential.


Yeah the fact that the Nasuverse is nearly Warcraftian in retcons/exceptions to things that aren't supposed to have exceptions doesn't help trying to keep everything straight.

I'm happy Extella Link answered some of the questions I had about different versions of characters existing, though the entire deal is still kinda confusing.

Cuntellectual fucked around with this message at 08:42 on Jun 14, 2018

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.

:colbert:
The artificial world inside the moon cell is a reality marble. The moon cell existed before magic died out.

The throne of heroes exist outside of both the world and time axis. So it doesn’t affect by the death of magic in extra.

However, the moon cell seem to be fully machine than magic. Then again, science can eventually do many thing as magic. If the counter force can make a hotline to the throne of heroes, the moon cell would knew the method and non-magical way to achieve it as a super computer at the level of wish granting machine.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
Anyone given Link a go yet? I mean, yes, it’s JP-only until winter, but I know that doesn’t necessarily slow goons down.

Dante Logos
Dec 31, 2010

Darth Walrus posted:

Anyone given Link a go yet? I mean, yes, it’s JP-only until winter, but I know that doesn’t necessarily slow goons down.

I tried it at E3 yesterday. Here are some highlights.

-No more grinding the rank and file to get the vanguard up. Which I think is a major improvement.
-Shadow servants are in. Weaker versions that plants make and some heavier fighters.
-NP charged up naturally and with circuits.
-Skills let you do AoE and line attacks with a recharge time.
Support servants are actually useful.

Things that I think will be a headache:
-Boss servants are beefy HP wise
-PC is a commander and you lose if they are defeated
-Wall guardians indicate to me that locked sectors will be used more.

I only really played one map so I imagine that the way to min max it or the real headaches are unknowns right now.

W.T. Fits
Apr 21, 2010

Ready to Poyozo Dance all over your face.

Dante Logos posted:

I tried it at E3 yesterday. Here are some highlights.

-No more grinding the rank and file to get the vanguard up. Which I think is a major improvement.
-Shadow servants are in. Weaker versions that plants make and some heavier fighters.
-NP charged up naturally and with circuits.
-Skills let you do AoE and line attacks with a recharge time.
Support servants are actually useful.

Things that I think will be a headache:
-Boss servants are beefy HP wise
-PC is a commander and you lose if they are defeated
-Wall guardians indicate to me that locked sectors will be used more.

I only really played one map so I imagine that the way to min max it or the real headaches are unknowns right now.

Does Jeanne's Noble Phantasm still kill her on use?

Snooze Cruise
Feb 16, 2013

hey look,
a post
I'm playing Fate/Extra
Combat is pretty boring, which is what I think everyone says, but I am enjoying everything else around the game right now.
The characters seem really fun. It seems like I have Robin Hood to fight in a few days and its rear end in a top hat Robin Hood from the Ballads instead of boring heroic Robin Hood.

Anyway it foreshadows the fans of FGO because every time I see them talk about it on Twitter its like this girl


e: also its cool that the Aozaki sisters are in this

Snooze Cruise fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Jun 15, 2018

I.N.R.I
May 26, 2011

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

Robin hoods a full grown man tho

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

W.T. Fits posted:

Does Jeanne's Noble Phantasm still kill her on use?

According to this YouTube Noble Phantasm compilation, yes (spoilers for new Servants doing flashy poo poo, obviously):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaiQmJqE8N8

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

ドーナツダメ!

Darth Walrus posted:

According to this YouTube Noble Phantasm compilation, yes (spoilers for new Servants doing flashy poo poo, obviously):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaiQmJqE8N8

Hahaha, what the gently caress was all that? And how was Charlemagne more anime than Astolfo with super secret mecha commanding older version, Karl der Große!

Also, Elizabeth Báthory looks like a generic succubus. Boooooo.

Galaga Galaxian
Apr 23, 2009

What a childish tactic!
Don't you think you should put more thought into your battleplan?!


Well, there is always the other Elisabeth Barthory...

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

ドーナツダメ!

Galaga Galaxian posted:

Well, there is always the other Elisabeth Barthory...



That's actually better. I really hate it when character designers loli-ize them for no real reason. At least Jack the Ripper had an interesting gimmick behind her. :/

Space Flower
Sep 10, 2014

by Games Forum
Liz being summoned as herself age 14 is a basis for her whole character and role in the plot of several games though. Why are you just assuming there's no reason behind it? Are you going to ask why Extella Link trailers aren't explaining the female King Arthur next?

Galaga Galaxian
Apr 23, 2009

What a childish tactic!
Don't you think you should put more thought into your battleplan?!


Well Lancer Liz is teenaged Barthory who is desperately trying to reject her legacy and deluding herself from it with Idol Fantasies. It's a silly concept, and though she is usually played for comic relief they do manage to do cool and serious stuff with her in CCC, Extella, and FGO sometimes.

CCC has her have a near mental breakdown at one point during the plot when her Cleithrophobia from the way she historically died is triggered and has her begging the protagonist to simply kill her instead.

Then again CCC also has this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpOJxVMG-hU

InfinityComplex
Feb 5, 2011

Nothing better than swinging around a little girl like a flail.
Auo castoff as an ability when

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D
Liz is cool, goofy, and my friend

RevolverDivider
Nov 12, 2016

Liz is fine, Jack is trash.

DisDisDis
Dec 22, 2013

Galaga Galaxian posted:

Well, there is always the other Elisabeth Barthory...



*in Borat voice*

my waif

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015

17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the fifth sixth some day

RevolverDivider posted:

Liz is fine, Jack is trash.

Not empty quoting.

Bakanogami
Dec 31, 2004


Grimey Drawer
I thought Liz was kinda dumb at first (why a dragon?) but she grows on you after a while

Carmilla is a far superior version when placed into any cute situation, however

Galaga Galaxian
Apr 23, 2009

What a childish tactic!
Don't you think you should put more thought into your battleplan?!


Bakanogami posted:

(why a dragon?)

Because the Bathory family crest has a dragon on it.

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this
Also to make jokes about sonic-element dragon breath.

Cuntellectual posted:

Now, on the topic of Extra here is something I haven't been able to figure out even remotely how it's explained.

In Extra, everything is in cyberspace due to magic being gone. As a result the Moon Cell's summoning system isn't making a copy of the 'original' in the Throne like a regular summoning, it's making a copy based off of the data it has. As a result, the servants in Extra are basically AI and not magic ghosts. So how do their memories transfer to the 'actual' selves in FGO? Robin Hood, Liz and Nero all know each other. :psyduck:

They never give a straight answer but it's sorta implied they sorta connect because they're both omniscient impartial observers.
The Throne is, in the end, some sort of construct created by the collective subconscious to store its best and brightest, in other words it's a human construct (if an extremely high level one). It stands to reason that a hyperadvanced civilization (that can create creatures that can infiltrate the passive reality warping humanity exerts on the world, for that matter) can create a supercomputer that can connect to that source.

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

ドーナツダメ!

Kyte posted:

Also to make jokes about sonic-element dragon breath.


They never give a straight answer but it's sorta implied they sorta connect because they're both omniscient impartial observers.
The Throne is, in the end, some sort of construct created by the collective subconscious to store its best and brightest, in other words it's a human construct (if an extremely high level one). It stands to reason that a hyperadvanced civilization (that can create creatures that can infiltrate the passive reality warping humanity exerts on the world, for that matter) can create a supercomputer that can connect to that source.

tldr; Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!

AlternateNu posted:

tldr; Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

something I imagine would piss off any other Fate-style universe's Mage Association to no end if it was suggested

atelier morgan
Mar 11, 2003

super-scientific, ultra-gay

Lipstick Apathy

Blockhouse posted:

something I imagine would piss off any other Fate-style universe's Mage Association to no end if it was suggested

It's actually addressed; there are explicitly things that used to be Magic that are just magecraft in the modern day because technology advanced sufficiently to be able to do the same thing.

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AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

ドーナツダメ!

UberJew posted:

It's actually addressed; there are explicitly things that used to be Magic that are just magecraft in the modern day because technology advanced sufficiently to be able to do the same thing.

I thought there was an underlying metaphysical difference between Magic and magecraft. Are you saying it is just a label depending on how closely the act/effect resembles a known law of the universe?

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