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Gromit posted:Now take a photo of those coins next to something more common so we can get an idea of scale on your weirdo currency and work back from there. He's got it pictured with the weirdo half dollar - the $2 bill of coins - nobody uses them!
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Jun 14, 2018 07:04
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Metal Geir Skogul posted:The complications are no longer complicated due to computerization. Computerization has not fixed "the exact same thing ultimately costs more depending on where you buy it", which doesn't happen in any of the countries where the tax is included
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Jun 14, 2018 07:22
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ElwoodCuse posted:Computerization has not fixed "the exact same thing ultimately costs more depending on where you buy it", which doesn't happen in any of the countries where the tax is included What the God drat gently caress are you even talking about?
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Jun 14, 2018 07:58
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I don't even know and am just walking away from it because every aspect has already been discussed.
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Jun 14, 2018 08:06
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Gromit posted:Now take a photo of those coins next to something more common so we can get an idea of scale on your weirdo currency and work back from there. Those drives are the size of a Compact Flash card. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CompactFlash Which I would call obsolete and failed, but I think it's still used on some DSLRs.
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Jun 14, 2018 12:43
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ElwoodCuse posted:Advertising. The difficulty is advertising. Merchants can't advertise a price if the same item costs a different price everywhere. It's why everything from fast food to cars says at the bottom "additional sales tax may apply" or something. You advertise that the widget is $4, so regardless whether you really sell it at $3.51 + tax or $3.88 + tax doesn't really matter except for fiddling with the margins on the widget you put on the shelf at $2 a pop. The customer sees and pays the same price at all locations.
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Jun 14, 2018 14:31
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Maybe it's because I'm a freedom loving American and have never known anything different, but this is the oddest discussion. Sales tax is a thing you budget in your head the same way you automatically add 20% to the cost of your meal to cover tipping. We're never going to see a flat price because there's no demand for it. Same goes for foreigner's weird multiples of 10 measuring methods. Kilograms how do they work?
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Jun 14, 2018 14:50
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The whole discussion started because, in a lot of other countries, tax is included in the price. So much so that when people visit the US there's often a lot of commentary how weird we do it here, having to mentally budget internally when in their home country it's all on the price tag. Then people came in claiming it's difficult to do so that's why nobody here does it, when really it's as simple as: Explosionface posted:You advertise that the widget is $4, so regardless whether you really sell it at $3.51 + tax or $3.88 + tax doesn't really matter except for fiddling with the margins on the widget you put on the shelf at $2 a pop. The customer sees and pays the same price at all locations. Being taken care of behind the scenes, because every cash register already knows how much tax to charge based on the item. So, claims that "different items have different tax rates! That's why we don't do it here!" are plainly false. I've even been in stores (rare, but they exist) where tax is included in the shelf price. Why don't all stores do it for convenience? Because, if you had a tax-included pricing scheme and advertised Widget X for $4.00, but your competitor had a tax-at-register advertised price of also $4.00, they're going to make more pure profit or they could advertise it at $3.88 (which may be what you actually charge for it pre-tax) undercutting your advertised price because people are dumb and won't think about the tax at register difference. Or, to put it shortly, the  emote everybody has been posting. I've worked on backend POS systems in a different life: even back in 2006 it was dead-simple to set the tax calculation to be done behind the scenes instead of on top of the scanned price. In some software, it was literally a checkbox or a flag to set. But nobody does it because...America.Like us sticking to the imperial system (even when everything we sell generally also has the metric equivalents on the packages by law), or having privatized healthcare, or having a purely two-party system, it's just something that's unique about the United States, no matter how dumb it may be. Queen_Combat has a new favorite as of 14:59 on Jun 14, 2018 |
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Jun 14, 2018 14:57
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Gromit posted:Now take a photo of those coins next to something more common so we can get an idea of scale on your weirdo currency and work back from there. I couldn't find any convenient physical representations of racism or alcoholism, so I'm not sure how to get things on a scale an Australian would understand. It's a little smaller than your average spider, I guess?
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Jun 14, 2018 14:59
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Jerry Cotton posted:What the God drat gently caress are you even talking about?
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Jun 14, 2018 15:02
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Pham Nuwen posted:I couldn't find any convenient physical representations of racism or alcoholism, so I'm not sure how to get things on a scale an Australian would understand. It's a little smaller than your average spider, I guess? bottle cap, dude, it's right the gently caress there
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Jun 14, 2018 15:05
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Enourmo posted:bottle cap, dude, it's right the gently caress there that's the problem, I don't actually have any bottle caps around. I looked for one because yeah that would have made a pretty good picture but it's been at least a month since I had anything with a bottle cap.
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Jun 14, 2018 15:08
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I've literally never stressed about sales tax on a purchase because I'm not spending so much of my money at one time that a margin of a few dollars is enough to drive me broke. I'm pretty sure most Americans simply don't think about the sales tax at all. It's such a weird thing to be hung up on not having on the price sticker because in practice nobody cares.
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Jun 14, 2018 15:16
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chitoryu12 posted:I've literally never stressed about sales tax on a purchase because I'm not spending so much of my money at one time that a margin of a few dollars is enough to drive me broke. I'm pretty sure most Americans simply don't think about the sales tax at all. It's such a weird thing to be hung up on not having on the price sticker because in practice nobody cares. The discussion wasn't stressing about it or being on a margin, just about how the US is unique in regards to pricing. This is the obsolete and failed tech thread and being one of the only few countries sticking to the "old ways" is appropriate.
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Jun 14, 2018 15:20
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Explosionface posted:You advertise that the widget is $4, so regardless whether you really sell it at $3.51 + tax or $3.88 + tax doesn't really matter except for fiddling with the margins on the widget you put on the shelf at $2 a pop. The customer sees and pays the same price at all locations. The margins are literally the reason anyone starts a business and stays in it. If you've spent any time -- as in, more than 5 seconds -- thinking about this and came to the conclusion that any for-profit would accept "fiddling with the margins" in order to make it a tiiiiny bit easier on buyers who don't want to do mental math... How?
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Jun 14, 2018 15:20
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Metal Geir Skogul posted:I think you're misunderstanding: The complications are no longer complicated due to computerization. But the old ways are held onto because capitalism, and it's easier to blame the government than sacrifice any profit for ease-of-shopping. This. The essence of capitalism in America is to provide the best return on investment possible for your company's shareholders. This is in fact your primary duty as an officer of most corporations. Any lost profit, no matter how small is a breach of that duty. So the only way to change the system without government intervention is to somehow prove to the governing board of each company that making shopper's lives easier will increase profits.
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Jun 14, 2018 15:20
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Trabant posted:The margins are literally the reason anyone starts a business and stays in it. If you've spent any time -- as in, more than 5 seconds -- thinking about this and came to the conclusion that any for-profit would accept "fiddling with the margins" in order to make it a tiiiiny bit easier on buyers who don't want to do mental math... How? Ask literally any other country how they do it, I guess? Like, maybe it's calculated into their pricing scheme or something? How does the entire EU collective stay afloat because apparently they haven't thought about business for more than 5 seconds I guess.
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Jun 14, 2018 15:22
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Metal Geir Skogul posted:Ask literally any other country how they do it, I guess? Like, maybe it's calculated into their pricing scheme or something? VAT in any one EU country is generally consistent. Meanwhile, I cross country lines in Texas or city lines in NY and the sales tax rate changes by 2 percentage points. So why would any widget-maker agree to fixed out-the-door pricing if their margins would be eroded in high-tax parts of the country? If anyone actually tried to do it, they'd have a great excuse to jack up the prices across the board, otherwise they would be absorbing the impact of our city/county/state tax fuckery with zero benefit to them. And frankly, zero benefit to the buyers. Yes, stores should label their goods with tax included prices. It's not that big of a deal, but it'd be nice. To expect a manufacturer or brand to do that is nuts. edit: I'm writing this as someone who has lived in both Europe and US. Trabant has a new favorite as of 15:43 on Jun 14, 2018 |
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Jun 14, 2018 15:41
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Metal Geir Skogul posted:Like us sticking to the imperial system (even when everything we sell generally also has the metric equivalents on the packages by law), or having privatized healthcare, or having a purely two-party system, it's just something that's unique about the United States, no matter how dumb it may be. No wonder we don't have a working healthcare system, privacy rights (the constitution is obsolete/failed technology), etc.
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Jun 14, 2018 15:59
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Trabant posted:So why would any widget-maker agree to fixed out-the-door pricing if their margins would be eroded in high-tax parts of the country? Nothing of what I've said is about manufacturers though? Sorry for the confusion. I think a lot of context is lost post-to-post and page-to-page. Queen_Combat has a new favorite as of 16:14 on Jun 14, 2018 |
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Jun 14, 2018 16:11
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One of the big supermarkets chains in France uses digital price displays on the shelves so prices can be changed at store level or centrally in a moment without needing to manually reprice each packaged item and allows for local pricing differences, instant discounts to shift stock etc. I've not seen it anywhere else but it'd make this US sales tax visibility pretty simple. And regardless of the US, it'd work well generally in big chain stores wherever.
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Jun 14, 2018 16:55
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Danger - Octopus! posted:One of the big supermarkets chains in France uses digital price displays on the shelves so prices can be changed at store level or centrally in a moment without needing to manually reprice each packaged item and allows for local pricing differences, instant discounts to shift stock etc. Kohl's went to digital prices, but it's dim LCD's that you have to squint at. Seems like it'd be a great use for E-Ink since you're looking at a screen that doesn't need a decent refresh rate or a backlight. The company I work for has recently moved to electronic price tags for larger showroom items that go on sale frequently.
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Jun 14, 2018 17:53
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There are several US states that have actually made it illegal to advertise prices with sales tax included.
ReidRansom has a new favorite as of 18:13 on Jun 14, 2018 |
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Jun 14, 2018 18:09
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Krispy Wafer posted:Kohl's went to digital prices, but it's dim LCD's that you have to squint at. Seems like it'd be a great use for E-Ink since you're looking at a screen that doesn't need a decent refresh rate or a backlight. I complained about this in a different thread last week. I went to buy some interview clothes. Digital price tags are a great idea. Unfortunately Kohl's does it in the most rear end backwards way possible. Most of them don't actually list the prices. When I checked out the pants, they showed they were Buy One Get One 50% off. But they wouldn't list the base price. Then I checked out ties. Ties were 40% off, and it listed what the sales prices of the different ties were, but I couldn't see which individual tie was what price. And their price checkers all looked fifteen years old and the system was down, so I couldn't check the prices anyway.
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Jun 14, 2018 18:24
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ReidRansom posted:There are several US states that have actually made it illegal to advertise prices with sales tax included. That's extremely interesting. Obfuscation of taxation is absolutely a thing, and it's gross.
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Jun 14, 2018 18:27
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n/m
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Jun 14, 2018 19:01
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Detective No. 27 posted:I complained about this in a different thread last week. I went to buy some interview clothes. Digital price tags are a great idea. Unfortunately Kohl's does it in the most rear end backwards way possible. Most of them don't actually list the prices. When I checked out the pants, they showed they were Buy One Get One 50% off. But they wouldn't list the base price. Then I checked out ties. Ties were 40% off, and it listed what the sales prices of the different ties were, but I couldn't see which individual tie was what price. Just for contrast, the rules for sales to consumers here are: - every item for sale must have a price either on a tag or visible nearby - bundle sales are fine, but you must show the price of just the one item as well - the final price you pay must not be higher than what's on the tag - sales must mention the previous price - ... and the item must have been generally available at that price for a month ahead of the sale - anything where it's sensible must have a comparison price listed, in a reasonable unit (so milk is $/liter and chocolate in $/kg) It's the typical overengineered Scandinavian consumer law, and ... you get very used to having it. I assume most of those apply in the US as well, of course.
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Jun 14, 2018 20:36
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Computer viking posted:. I assume most of those apply in the US as well, of course. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Just really the first one.
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Jun 14, 2018 21:04
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ReidRansom posted:There are several US states that have actually made it illegal to advertise prices with sales tax included. what the gently caress?
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Jun 14, 2018 21:33
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Code Jockey posted:what the gently caress? They also have codes/laws/ordinances that prevent people from installing doors that open the correct way (i.e. outwards) so that cops and bounty hunters have an easier time busting in and killing you and your entire family and kicking your dog. e: The best of course is the bathroom door that opens inwards so that when the paramedics are trying to get to grandma she just dies because she's slumped on the floor in front of the door.
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Jun 15, 2018 01:50
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Pham Nuwen posted:I couldn't find any convenient physical representations of racism or alcoholism, so I'm not sure how to get things on a scale an Australian would understand. It's a little smaller than your average spider, I guess? Average spider? So somewhere around the size of a dinner plate. Your coins are crazy big.
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Jun 15, 2018 02:52
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Gromit posted:Average spider? So somewhere around the size of a dinner plate. Your coins are crazy big. Inconvient, but hard to lose.
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Jun 15, 2018 04:07
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Pham Nuwen posted:Inconvient, but hard to lose. Boy, I've heard of currency in circulation, but this is ridiculous! 
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Jun 15, 2018 06:01
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Years ago I worked at a place to simplify transactions and speed them up (since at the time were were entirely cash-only), they priced everything to be end in .00, .25, .50 or .75 after tax. So people would get all weirded out by atypical prices, but also be pleased that they always getting only quarters or bills back in change. Every so often we'd end up with people paying in nickles, dimes, even pennies and we'd try to pass those back to customers in change and nope, everyone would just prefer the quarter.
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Jun 15, 2018 07:17
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People in Europe also don't realize that in a lot of ways the US is not one nation, but fifty of them, and some of those fifty hate some of the rest and act like children about it - refer to the 10th amendment, "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." The US really, truly, has a much weaker national government than most European countries, by design, because it was assembled out of multiple de facto sovereign nations, and some of those nations - Rhode Island, I'm looking at you - wouldn't join the rest until federal rights were restricted in favor of states rights (and we basically had to twist Rhode Island's arm until they gave in.) Expecting, say, stores with locations in California and in Delaware (7.5% plus local tax, and 0% with local tax prohibited, respectively) to charge identical after-tax prices is roughly the same thing as expecting stores with locations in England and Switzerland (20% VAT and 8% VAT, respectively) to charge identical after-tax prices. It's not going to happen because the only reasonable way to make it work like it does in Europe is to get California and Delaware to share the same tax rate, and both are completely independent taxing authorities that have no reason to cooperate like that. Now imagine trying the same between, say, Massachusetts and South Carolina, two states with massive cultural differences and a history of bad blood (American Civil War, anyone?) And the national government will absolutely not get involved in sales tax, because it's not a power specifically vested to them - see the 10th amendment, above - and since sales tax stays in the state it's collected in, it doesn't fall under the Commerce Clause or various other laws regulating interstate commerce either. (Hey, congrats, you got me to do some actual research for my shitpost  )
rndmnmbr has a new favorite as of 08:36 on Jun 15, 2018 |
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Jun 15, 2018 08:26
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rndmnmbr posted:Delaware now there's an obsolete technology
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Jun 15, 2018 08:33
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Also, we're a nation founded by a bunch of chronic non-joiners who wanted freedom from the social and economic stratification of Europe, we're just about 110 years after the last glorious gasp of chronic non-joinery (settlement of the Old West, where if you didn't want to get with the game around you then it was trivial to pack up and go somewhere where you could dictate the rules of the game), and we have a culture that still glorifies chronic non-joinery and hasn't come to terms with the fact that chronic non-joinery isn't an option anymore, neither in our own country nor on the global stage - when society demands you play nice with others, then you either play nice, run away, or get crushed, and there's no more room on this planet to run away, and Americans are having trouble accepting that fact. e. this isn't D&D, I'll shut up now.
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Jun 15, 2018 08:57
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rndmnmbr posted:Expecting, say, stores with locations in California and in Delaware (7.5% plus local tax, and 0% with local tax prohibited, respectively) to charge identical after-tax prices No-one ITT is expecting that 
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Jun 15, 2018 09:12
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You are unless you're expecting corporations to never advertise based on price again and/or give up potentially 7.5%+ of their margins for the sake of customer convenience. Frankly, getting Delaware and California to agree on matching tax rates would be easier, along with getting that Sisyphean boulder to balance on it's hill, snuffing out the sun, and making people stop shitposting on the internet. e. I recognize the irony in that last statement.
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Jun 15, 2018 09:26
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Price labels that don't show the price are moronic, and proof that Americans will make excuses for anything. Sweevo has a new favorite as of 11:02 on Jun 15, 2018 |
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Jun 15, 2018 10:59
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