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Astroman posted:Do you have zero confidence that white writers and actors can show any culture but their own without being devastatingly racist? Yeah, pretty much. Speaking as a white dude, we haven't exactly had a great track record on either side of the Atlantic when it comes to that.
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# ? Mar 18, 2018 18:18 |
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# ? Apr 18, 2024 12:24 |
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Oh what a surprise, Bicyclops tells me my opinion is Objectively Wrong. Sydney Bottocks posted:Yeah, pretty much. Speaking as a white dude, we haven't exactly had a great track record on either side of the Atlantic when it comes to that. Do you feel only a POC or a person from a certain nation can write for that group? Can people only write for their ancestors? Are we at a point where as long as Chibnall is showrunner the show can only do white, British history and space stuff? MrL_JaKiri posted:You're doing a lot of straw manning recently over people being concerned about whether a Very White BBC programme can handle issues of historical racism with class and poise. Nuance? I'm not the one getting all and worked up with Dread over a hypothetical racist episode that hasn't occurred yet. The reason I say people will BOYCOTT WHO FOREVER is I assume they are worried that if the show is deemed horribly racist they'll have to stop watching. And your smug backseat modding note has been noted and you can be sure I'll take it under advisement with all the due weight it deserves.
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# ? Mar 19, 2018 02:49 |
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Astroman posted:Nuance? I'm not the one getting all and worked up with Dread over a hypothetical racist episode that hasn't occurred yet. The reason I say people will BOYCOTT WHO FOREVER is I assume they are worried that if the show is deemed horribly racist they'll have to stop watching. And your smug backseat modding note has been noted and you can be sure I'll take it under advisement with all the due weight it deserves. I guess I need to point out to the only person here who didn't get it that the words "I am filled with dread" were filled with rhetorical hyperbole. Filled! To the literal edge! Madness! I'm sorry you don't understand how people talk on the internet in 2018, OP.
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# ? Mar 19, 2018 02:59 |
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Astroman posted:Do you feel only a POC or a person from a certain nation can write for that group? Can people only write for their ancestors? Are we at a point where as long as Chibnall is showrunner the show can only do white, British history and space stuff? Let's reverse this: What about Chibnall's track record makes you confident that he CAN handle the kind of topics that concern has been raised about, and do so without a Peter Harness-esque tin ear?
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# ? Mar 19, 2018 04:52 |
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Gaz-L posted:Let's reverse this: What about Chibnall's track record makes you confident that he CAN handle the kind of topics that concern has been raised about, and do so without a Peter Harness-esque tin ear? Broadchurch? And my first and largest concern is that he can handle Doctor Who period. There's a lot he can gently caress up on the series besides just "insensitive depictions of non-British historical cultures."
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# ? Mar 19, 2018 05:25 |
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Astroman posted:Broadchurch? Well so you admit that there's a lot he can gently caress up and it had you concerned, but just keep in mind that in the latter situation: 1) loving up can cause harm to a historically marginalized group and 2) handling that type of story is hard for even the most talented of writers. Basically it's worse in every way if he fucks up the Rosa Parks thing than if he does the Cybermen wrong or something stupid.
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# ? Mar 19, 2018 05:32 |
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Astroman posted:Do you feel only a POC or a person from a certain nation can write for that group? Can people only write for their ancestors? Are we at a point where as long as Chibnall is showrunner the show can only do white, British history and space stuff? You seem awfully defensive about this.
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# ? Mar 19, 2018 06:17 |
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Going back to the RTD era, Human Nature/Family of Blood does demonstrate the show can do a good job of addressing racial realities of real world history. At the same time though the way they treated Nixon and Churchill gives a little concern. I'm hoping for an episode where the Rosa Parks events occur mainly in the background. Address the fact it's happening, but if the new Doctor is being treated as a potential onboarding point for new viewers use it to also introduce the fixed point concept and why The Doctor doesn't intervene in the majority of awful poo poo that has happened in human history.
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# ? Mar 19, 2018 09:30 |
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Guy A. Person posted:Basically it's worse in every way if he fucks up the Rosa Parks thing than if he does the Cybermen wrong or something stupid. Well he’s already done that one in the worst possible way, so honestly anything from that is up.
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# ? Mar 19, 2018 11:38 |
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Sydney Bottocks posted:You seem awfully defensive about this. I just think it's crazy that for some (I qualify this before Bicyclops and MrL_JaKiri indignantly post that THEY never said this) there is becoming an unwritten rule that people can only write for people of the same gender, sexuality, race or historical nationality as themselves without being dogpiled on as problematic. And I'm not the only one: https://screenrant.com/black-panther-christopher-priest-pigeonholing-people-color/ Having people write from their own experience is great. It shouldn't mean they can only write for that without being suspect.
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# ? Mar 19, 2018 13:50 |
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Astrodude, your weird obsession with this issue has no bearing on the current complaint, which is that writing space aliens, in particular, white British ones, into the Civil Rights era is a bad idea. Whatever the Doctor does to save the day will appear either embarrassingly silly or condescending (in a way which erases the accomplishments of important historical figures) against the backdrop. The reason you anticipate that people will say "I didn't actually say that" is because you never actually engage with what people are saying when this kind of thing comes up. I searched a couple of people's posts, and you are, I am fairly certain, the first person to use the word "racist" to describe the episode (I use the word to describe the supporters of segregation, and facetiously to apply it to the Zygons instead of the real human people; I'm the only one). You are so horribly incapable of having an original thought on this topic that you continuously put words in people's mouths so that you can have the same circular argument. You don't like listening, so you argue against a shrill, abstract phantom of your own creation. If you would like to discuss why you think it could be brilliant to insert a time traveling space wizard and a set of bad guy aliens who are a variation on the pod people trope into one of America's flashbulb memories with regard to its original sin, feel free to discuss that, instead of embarking on your usual crusade against the grand artistic censorship of people of privilege writing for the oppressed.
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# ? Mar 19, 2018 14:21 |
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Well, for one it could be educational
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# ? Mar 19, 2018 14:26 |
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Holy smokes, there's also a difference between "writ(ing) for people of the same gender, sexuality, race or historical nationality" and handling a historically sensitive incident in a show where almost every episode deals with evil aliens being inserted into things.
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# ? Mar 19, 2018 14:29 |
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Guy A. Person posted:Holy smokes, there's also a difference between "writ(ing) for people of the same gender, sexuality, race or historical nationality" and handling a historically sensitive incident in a show where almost every episode deals with evil aliens being inserted into things. Like the former thing is also a discussion, but I refused to be dragged there again by loving Astroman, who for some reason decides that's what we're arguing about every time anyone discusses flaws that the show has with regards to representation. 2house2fly posted:Well, for one it could be educational I mean, we're not exactly in the Hartnell era anymore, here. I know we have a new showrunner, but I still doubt "Learn about history from Doctor Who" is coming back after approximately a 50 year hiatus.
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# ? Mar 19, 2018 14:37 |
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Bicyclops posted:I mean, we're not exactly in the Hartnell era anymore, here. I know we have a new showrunner, but I still doubt "Learn about history from Doctor Who" is coming back after approximately a 50 year hiatus. Welp. Chris Chibnall is “keen to bring the show back to its 1960s roots when Sydney Newman intended it to be an educational series for children”.
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# ? Mar 19, 2018 14:55 |
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The_Doctor posted:Welp. Chris Chibnall is “keen to bring the show back to its 1960s roots when Sydney Newman intended it to be an educational series for children”. Huh, that could be interesting, because it will mean that the Doctor's involvement in events is to be dragged into them and try to extract herself and her companions and get back to the TARDIS. It would involve not shoehorning in the Zygons or other alien threats if they want to pull it off, though, particularly given that they don't have the time that the old serialized format provided for padding. Like, if they want to go that route, they should be purely historicals, I think.
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# ? Mar 19, 2018 15:09 |
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Bicyclops posted:Like, if they want to go that route, they should be purely historicals, I think. You can teach things other than just history.
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# ? Mar 19, 2018 15:36 |
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thexerox123 posted:You can teach things other than just history. Sure, but what are you going to teach by inserting Zygons into a historical setting, exactly? You don't need the alien threats in historicals, and it's why the Hartnell (and early Troughton) era didn't use them. That's not to say that you can never have aliens attack when you have a story involving backward time travel, just that in a "let's learn about this historical period" story, it's a detriment rather than a feature.
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# ? Mar 19, 2018 15:58 |
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You could do both, in theory. Have the historical event go off as planned completely unaware and unfettered from alien influence, but the Doctor and co having worked around in the background defeating the baddies, completely unbeknownst.
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# ? Mar 19, 2018 16:17 |
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I hope Rosa Parks ends up being a Zygon.
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# ? Mar 19, 2018 16:48 |
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Astroman posted:Oh what a surprise, Bicyclops tells me my opinion is Objectively Wrong. Get over yourself, dude
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# ? Mar 19, 2018 17:43 |
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The_Doctor posted:Welp. Chris Chibnall is “keen to bring the show back to its 1960s roots when Sydney Newman intended it to be an educational series for children”. I've seen the original documents for the show that Newman and others put together (having spent time in the BBC Written Archive doing research for a couple of publications). One of the things Newman stressed -- which quickly went out the window -- was that the historicals be instances where the Doctor and his companions are observers only, and do not interfer with the course of events in any way. (According to one doc, Newman was horrified by a BBC bod's thoughts that it would be fun for the Doctor to turn out to be Santa or the Tooth Fairy, or that he was instrumental in particular historical events happening, either on Earth or other planets that they visited. The only element of science fiction in this type of story was simply how the Doctor and his companions arrive.). It's interesting stuff -- stories were meant to fall into three categories: historicals/past, future, and 'sideways'. Only rarely really do the shows go 'sideways' -- be nice to see more of that. (What was meant, I think, were things such as alternate universes or more experimental things.) It was stressed that of the three categories, historicals would be the hardest to write, and the writers were expected to do their homework. Ms Boods fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Mar 19, 2018 |
# ? Mar 19, 2018 18:44 |
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Astroman posted:I just think it's crazy that for some (I qualify this before Bicyclops and MrL_JaKiri indignantly post that THEY never said this) there is becoming an unwritten rule that people can only write for people of the same gender, sexuality, race or historical nationality as themselves without being dogpiled on as problematic. And I'm not the only one: I don't necessarily disagree with you; but again, I'm pointing out that both the US and UK have a less than stellar record when it comes to TV shows created and run by white people that try to depict non-white cultural backgrounds. It's certainly possible for someone to write a show or whatever about someone who grew up in a (real-world, not a fictional) culture completely different from their own. But that takes sensitivity, nuance, and (above all) extensive research into what that particular culture is and how it came to be. And you'll have to pardon those of us who are a wee bit skeptical that a 45-minute episode of Doctor Who, written by a white British guy, will have all these things integrated into an episode where Zygons apparently have something to do with what is arguably one of the biggest cultural touchstones in black American history. It's certainly not impossible, sure; but I'm not gonna hold my breath waiting to be surprised, either.
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# ? Mar 19, 2018 18:54 |
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Ms Boods posted:
I guess the early examples of sideways would be Planet of Giants and The Celestial Toymaker, but I can't really think of anything else that applies in the Hartnell era. I guess arguably The Edge of Destruction or the second half of The Ark? They didn't do too many of the sideways ones. I do think that philosophy is good for historicals. I don't mind the occasional alien threat in the past, but sometimes you just want to Shakespeare without the alien witch magic and with the Doctor accidentally giving the names of all of his plays.
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# ? Mar 19, 2018 19:49 |
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Bicyclops posted:Astrodude, your weird obsession with this issue has no bearing on the current complaint, which is that writing space aliens, in particular, white British ones, into the Civil Rights era is a bad idea. Whatever the Doctor does to save the day will appear either embarrassingly silly or condescending (in a way which erases the accomplishments of important historical figures) against the backdrop. The reason you anticipate that people will say "I didn't actually say that" is because you never actually engage with what people are saying when this kind of thing comes up. Well you should have searched better, because I was responding to pgroce's post about the India episode. I also never said I was all for inserting a time traveling space wizard and a set of bad guy aliens who are a variation on the pod people trope into one of America's flashbulb memories with regard to its original sin. I said it's dumb to get hyperbolically filled with dread and worry assuming offense over an episode which hasn't happened yet. See, you put words into my mouth there. AndyElusive posted:I hope Rosa Parks ends up being a Zygon. At this point, so do I, if only for the spectacle of the meltdowns that will occur.
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# ? Mar 20, 2018 06:48 |
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Bicyclops posted:I guess the early examples of sideways would be Planet of Giants and The Celestial Toymaker, but I can't really think of anything else that applies in the Hartnell era. I guess arguably The Edge of Destruction or the second half of The Ark? They didn't do too many of the sideways ones. When I get a chance, I'll dig out my notes and copies; when the original Pitch of Doom was made (late 1962, but a lot more detailed stuff shows up into 1963), they already had episode synopses plotted out and possible writers. Not every projected episode ended up being written and/or made; some of the writers they contacted were interesting (waaaay back in the earlier stages, before coming up with the Doctor and his companions, they'd thought the show might be an anthology, so they were brainstorming ideas for current sci fi authors whom they might approach, e.g. Poul Anderson and John Wyndam.)
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# ? Mar 20, 2018 06:57 |
Actually Sideways was the term used to describe a real world concept or idea told via science fiction. The Daleks were specifically a sideways pitch on the Nazi's. This is from the Doctor Who Vault.
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# ? Mar 20, 2018 07:38 |
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Right -- back to my home office; the categories on the doc I've got in my files are 'past', 'future' and 'dimensional' What became the first Daleks serial (originally called 'The Mutants' -- another early doc refers to it as 'Doctor Who and the Robots ) is under the category 'future' One of the 'dimensionals' is has as its subject 'miniscule' and is in reference to Edge of Destruction. Another one by Malcolm Hulke falls into the dimensional category. Not sure what this one was meant to be -- a number of the stories on this document are for the original pitch meetings, when they were lining up possible authors and story topics) Dalek serials (at least in this early document) aren't dimensional/sideways. (Document is from 23 Oct 1963 from the Planning Manager (Forward) Tel.Prog/Planning. 2381/2/3 from the BBC Written Archives.) Anyway, enough for now -- back to the regularly scheduled discussion
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# ? Mar 20, 2018 17:48 |
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Ms Boods posted:Another one by Malcolm Hulke falls into the dimensional category. Not sure what this one was meant to be -- a number of the stories on this document are for the original pitch meetings, when they were lining up possible authors and story topics) It looks like Malcolm Hulke pitched a script in season 1 for a twin planet of Earth's that was ruled by women (lol, how many unproduced, weird versions of Galaxy 4 are there?). I suppose that could be it, if they were aiming to have the planet show itself in present time, although it still feels kind of futurey. Interesting, either way!
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# ? Mar 20, 2018 18:23 |
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They’re currently filming in Spain, which is doubling for India.quote:Series 11 has been filming in Granada, southern Spain for the past few days. Reports stated that filming specifically took place in La Calahorra near the famous Castillo de La Calahorra. A lot of the architecture in the region was built by the Moors and their designs are not too dissimilar to the architecture of old Islamic era India. https://twitter.com/GirlyLetters/status/1006608356331720704
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# ? Jun 15, 2018 23:00 |
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Hell yeah. Props to Chibnall for going out of the "Victorian England, and sometimes the good parts of the US" box.
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# ? Jun 15, 2018 23:30 |
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Mameluke posted:and sometimes the good parts of the US Hey, I'll have you know, we have plenty here besides the White House, the Wild West and New York City. The Doctor could meet Ben Affleck trying very hahd to get out of Boston, for example, or she could tear down confederate statues in the South.
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# ? Jun 16, 2018 00:02 |
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Is it taking a month per individual episode filming?
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# ? Jun 16, 2018 00:56 |
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Bicyclops posted:Hey, I'll have you know, we have plenty here besides the White House, the Wild West and New York City. The Doctor could meet Ben Affleck trying very hahd to get out of Boston, for example, or she could tear down confederate statues in the South. I'm personally looking forward to the episode where the Doctor has to try and bring peace between two neighboring factions on the verge of all-out war: Michigan State football fans vs. U of M football fans.
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# ? Jun 16, 2018 02:14 |
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Sydney Bottocks posted:I'm personally looking forward to the episode where the Doctor has to try and bring peace between two neighboring factions on the verge of all-out war: Michigan State football fans vs. U of M football fans. I'm looking forward to when Bostonians rightfully side with the Daleks against a much worse enemy, Bucky loving Dent.
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# ? Jun 16, 2018 02:30 |
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They can bring Ian McNiece back as Churchill for the Indian episode, except he can be a villain.
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# ? Jun 16, 2018 09:58 |
Trailer and clips have leaked. Including the new sonic. Being taken down quickly enough that there's no point linking them. Jodie looks good.
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# ? Jun 25, 2018 19:35 |
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Clip, via Reddit Sonic
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# ? Jun 25, 2018 19:40 |
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I like that Sonic Screwdriver
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# ? Jun 25, 2018 19:42 |
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# ? Apr 18, 2024 12:24 |
The clip is great. The sonic is awful. New Dalek designs out there too
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# ? Jun 25, 2018 19:42 |