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Over the course of my roughly 35 years, the most impressive technical feat I've ever performed on a car is adding a quart of oil because it told me to. At least I think I did that, once. And that's sort of why I went off and purchased a 1993 Mercedes-Benz 500 GE, because nothing motivates you to "learning by doing" like a dodgy old five liter V8 stuck in a car hardly anyone's even heard of. Behold, the M117.965. Most people familiar with this engine know it from the W126 series of benzes, specifically late 80's 500 SE's, 500 SEL's or 500 SEC's. It puts out somewhere between 164 and 195 kW's of power, depending on configuration. This one in particular cost the previous owner in excess of $40.000 in parts and repairs over a seven year period. He eventually pretty much gave up, so the car has been sitting in a garage for the past few years. A recurring theme in the notes from the various garages it's been to is rough idling and difficulties starting the drat thing. After some quick googling, and some intensive cross-referencing internet lore with the car's maintenance logs, I figured injection valves would be a good place to start. As far as I can tell, not one of the little bastards has been replaced (or even cleaned) since the car was brand new.  So far, this seems easy! Less than $600 got me eight brand new valves, seals and sleeves (not pictured). People are going on about Viton O-rings for the sleeves, but those are pretty much Unobtainium around here, so I just stick with the black rubber ones for now.  Actually replacing these things takes more work than buying them, though. I'm going to have to remove the fuel lines, and afterwards, there are these brackets putting pressure on the injectors themselves. Said brackets are held in place by socket head screws which are an utter nightmare to loosen. I'm interpreting this as further evidence these things have sat untouched for 25 years. There's a lot of aluminum going on down in this engine, by the way. I think someone sprayed something in here which isn't supposed to go on aluminum.  A bit of violence never hurt, right?  Yay! So I got to this point with the first two injection valves, and even managed to fit a new set of stuff in the appropriate holes. Afterwards, things went less smoothly. Or rather, things became altogether too smooth.  So good news: one cylinder bank now holds two new injector valves. This simple change has made starting the engine a breeze – as if nothing was ever wrong to begin with. Idling is smoother, too. Bad news: that bank also has two screws with circular holes, where there ought to be hexagonal ones. The other bank still has four more or less intact screws, because they seem to be as stuck as the ones I ruined, and applying more violence turns out to not be the perfect solution to everything after all. Who knew, right? I've tried applying all sorts of lubricants, from WD-40 to a homebrew of 50/50 ATF-U and acetone, with no luck. At this point I'm considering having someone drill the six stuck screws out, unless anyone here has a cleverer idea. Oh, and one last thing. I was thinking of replacing the cold start valve, but after the vast improvement from just two new injectors, I don't think that one's a problem after all. This is, though:  I accidentally broke off a part of this incredibly brittle plastic connector to the CSV. No idea what it's called, though, so finding a replacement part is hard. There's not even a number on it, unless that was stamped on the bits that flew off down into the water pump belt contraption, it just says "AMP". If anyone has any idea what this is called, I'd be incredibly grateful, since I'm planning for a 2000 mile trip in this thing within the next week or so. Which reminds me...  This can't have been changed recently, right?
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Jun 23, 2018 22:26
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Connector is a Bosch EV1, you can probably just use the housing/shell if you can pop the pins out without turbofucking it. edit: EV1 is technically an application for a device that connector would use, but people call the connector that enough its a good way to search for the part.
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Jun 23, 2018 23:27
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Thanks a lot! Looks like this is the closest I'll get to things which are in ample supply: Even if this isn't the exact right part, at least I'll be able to drive around looking for places stocking EV1 connectors. And hey, it's only for the CSV, and this is June. I'm sure it won't be an actual problem until September, at least, even if I have to crank the engine a bit extra to get it running. As it is, the engine does run, even if I suddenly started struggling getting the car up to 60 mph after the intake air temperature sensor fell out of its designated hole. Simply putting it back in didn't resolve the problem, so I've ordered up a new one which will hopefully fix that issue. After that, once the little square filter for crankcase vapors (???) arrives, I'm changing both that and the regular air filter. The former is downright filthy, and I'm guessing there's little point in only replacing the latter, so yeah. On the other hand, I'm fully aware of how completely new I am at this stuff; that's just my uneducated guess.  Once all this is resolved, I'm thinking these bits and pieces for the throttle should be my next priority. There is a lot of slack in the pedal, and cruise control is either jittery or non-functional, so this ought to be a good place to start.  Oh, and maybe an oil change is in order as well. The shop which facilitated the sale told me they'd changed the various fluids, but judging from the color on the dipstick, I'm not so sure.
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Jun 24, 2018 00:48
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Here's the car itself, by the way – one of the 446 ever built. It used to have a few "new-style" "upgrades" installed, like white turn signals and so on. That's all gone now; the end goal is getting it as close to when it was new as I can.
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Jun 24, 2018 14:00
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Pursesnatcher posted:If I'm slow on updates these days, it's only because I'm elbows deep in learning how to be a second class mechanic myself. You never know when you might need to know how to connect some pipes! Learning by doing is underrated. I really like your project! I'm not familiar with the GE (before I clicked on the link I thought you were wrenching a 500E) but take solace that it comes from the era of MB vehicles that were over-engineered, but durable.
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Jun 24, 2018 17:18
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Phew! One quick 2198 mile road test later, I've learned a LOT about this car. First off, there's a deep, constant tremor throughout the vehicle whenever the speedometer passes ~52 mph, which I ascribe to tire adjustment. On RPM's beyond 2200-2500 or so, there's also a distinct rustling sound from the engine, which might be from the timing chain, I guess? I'm also fairly certain the OVP relay is shot, or soon to be. Reasoning: The ABS light lit up several times during this trip for no discernible reason. When this is on constantly, it can mean a multitude of things, like the brake servo being dead or (duh) ABS failing. However, the brakes were fine – but the ABS module gets its power through the OVP. The very same relay, from what I've been able to google, also keeps the fuel injector system flowing just right. If it starts failing, either due to shoddy Mercedes soldering or just plain old age, you'll struggle to get the right fuel/air mix, and the ABS light will come on. Since it lit up only after uncomfortable jolts to the car, well, you get the idea. Now, for the first half of the trip, I had a hell of a time climbing hills. Even 6% inclines on nice, paved roads were hard, and flooring the accelerator was not an option (the car would stall and threaten to die). Switching from premium 95 RON fuel to super 98 RON fuel worked wonders in this respect, which I interpret as relevant to fuel/air mix and injection system (the manual states 95 is recommended, but that even 93 will do in a pinch). I want to believe swapping the OVP for a brand new unit, and completing the injector swap, should let me use less-than-bankruptcy-inducing gasoline again? Oh, and I also got a coolant leak at some point during the first 1600 miles.  Full size is pretty big. Since I couldn't smell anything anywhere, the reservoir looked pretty well stocked, and the leak looks minor, I decided to give it another 100 miles and see if it got worse.  Still no major visible changes up there, and temperature was stable at between 170-182 degrees F, so I decided I could make it the paltry 500 miles home. Arriving at my destination, I guess it got a bit worse? Temperature also climbed to 194 degrees at the very end. Hope I don't need a whole new radiator, that thing is big.
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Jul 5, 2018 18:26
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You must be new to german cars, or anything older than 10 years old. Everything rubber or plastic in your engine bay or suspension is junk and it all needs to be replaced. E: I forgot to say earlier, have you thought about getting a impact driver and hex bit for your injectors/fuel rails? Hitting and turning helps well with stuck fasteners. Up to you whether you get a battery or hand tool version. Fo3 fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Jul 5, 2018 |
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Jul 5, 2018 20:32
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You're gonna need a radiator unless you can source the tank and have a radiator shop swap em out. Do all the hoses, fan clutch, and belts while the radiator isn't in the way, if it's a slushie, do the trans cooler hoses too  . Fill it with G05. Don't buy Uro brand otherwise uro gonna be replacing that poo poo again.
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Jul 5, 2018 21:13
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Great advice, thanks! The spark plug wiring is pretty new, but yeah, I guess the rest might as well just go. What's a slushie? For the record, I'm not just new to German cars. I might in fact be the most clueless person who's ever posted anything on AI. Still dead set on getting this V8 to purr, though!
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Jul 6, 2018 00:02
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Pursesnatcher posted:Great advice, thanks! The spark plug wiring is pretty new, but yeah, I guess the rest might as well just go. What's a slushie?
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Jul 6, 2018 03:28
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Krakkles posted:Automatic transmission - aka “slushbox”. Ah, right, thanks! These babies never got manual trannies, so I guess that makes for four hoses and two wires to disconnect and replace. Gonna be fun!
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Jul 6, 2018 21:38
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Pursesnatcher posted:Phew! One quick 2198 mile road test later, I've learned a LOT about this car. First off, there's a deep, constant tremor throughout the vehicle whenever the speedometer passes ~52 mph, which I ascribe to tire adjustment. On RPM's beyond 2200-2500 or so, there's also a distinct rustling sound from the engine, which might be from the timing chain, I guess? That radiator.....  I can't believe you made it 500 miles with it broken like that. That thing is junk, replace it before it strands you somewhere.
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Jul 7, 2018 03:20
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You picked a hell of a car to learn on that's for sure.
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Jul 9, 2018 07:16
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cakesmith handyman posted:You picked a hell of a car to learn on that's for sure. And probably the worst to attempt to be frugal/cheap about repairing. Off-brand parts and shadetree mechanicin' will not do well for this car at all.
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Jul 9, 2018 16:32
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Sperglord Firecock? Is it you?
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Jul 9, 2018 17:12
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Easy is boring, right?  DJ Commie posted:And probably the worst to attempt to be frugal/cheap about repairing. Off-brand parts and shadetree mechanicin' will not do well for this car at all. Very likely true! I discovered a tiny strip of wood missing from the passenger door interior, which is available directly from Mercedes, but they want a cool $934 for it. From my calculations, this places Mercedes-Benz burled walnut at 6th place on the list of most valuable substances in the world by weight, far ahead of gold, and just a little bit behind methamphetamine. A new radiator, I learned today, would be more than $3k if I want a star on it. Still, I'm sticking to OEM for pretty much everything, so long as it doesn't become obscenely expensive. Like that walnut, or radiator.
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Jul 9, 2018 22:43
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Pursesnatcher posted:Still, I'm sticking to OEM for pretty much everything, so long as it doesn't become obscenely expensive. That...may not be possible  Brightside: big thread comedy
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Jul 9, 2018 22:54
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Nebakenezzer posted:That...may not be possible No promises, but six pages from now, this car might consist primarily of duct tape.
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Jul 10, 2018 01:09
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On the upside, Mercedes is really good about parts support for old vehicles. Do you have access to them Mercedes repair info system (WIS)?
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Jul 10, 2018 06:07
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Not directly, but my parts shop does. Thanks to the magic of eBay I also got the service manual for the engine (as seen in the W126, but it's close enough), and I have a folder listing all parts numbers, with diagrams, for most of the mechanical bits of the engine. New bits also arrived! The tiny air filter which hasn't been replaced in 25 years (from what I can tell) is finally getting retired, and the maybe-faulty OVP relay is going too. If I can find it. 
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Jul 10, 2018 12:31
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This is the best thread.
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Jul 10, 2018 15:09
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EVERYWHERE 
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Disgruntled Bovine posted:Sperglord Firecock? Is it you? No this guy is actually doing work to his vehicle, and has at least a semblance of understanding of what he's doing. I say godspeed, Pursesnatcher. Let us know if we can help.
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Jul 10, 2018 15:26
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Oh absolutely I wish you the best in this endeavour.
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Jul 10, 2018 16:18
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OMG you are learning to work on cars on an old G-Wagen. And you already drove it 2000 miles. You will be welcome here sir.
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Jul 10, 2018 18:20
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This isn't the truck that a wheel fell off of while driving, is it?
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Jul 10, 2018 23:33
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Thanks a bunch guys, I really appreciate it! Went out to get some new tools today, and at first light, I'm taking a drill to the engine to prepare the ground for my new screw extractors. Those injectors are getting replaced, one way or another. Still haven't been able to find the old OVP relay, but I'll keep looking. I thought it was supposed to screw onto a wall, owing to those brackets on the side of the thing, but according to YouTube those are just for locking it in place in some sort of plastic mounting thingmabob, next to other relays and stuff. I'm starting to wonder if I have to go in through one of the footwells or something. madeintaipei posted:This isn't the truck that a wheel fell off of while driving, is it? Close, but no! (I very nearly bought an externally very similar G-wagon a while ago, with a far more economical 3.5 liter diesel I6, and even an airbag and stuff – but then the brake servo died and the electrical systems gave up the ghost and a wheel fell off... all during the first test drive. So I returned that one, and kept looking until I found this slightly rough diamond instead. So far, the wheels haven't fallen off.)
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Jul 11, 2018 01:32
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When it comes to plastic thingamabobs, junkyards can be a huge asset. Where are you? I have a feeling it’s a bit of a moonshot here, but if you could suss out other benz’ with the same engine and track them down on the row52 or something, you might find someone here to take a look at their local yard. I’m in central NY, and spend way more time than I should at junkyards if you can track anything down at the horse heads or auburn yards. http://row52.com E: Ah, you’re in Yurp. The $ values and miles threw me off. E2: while fully realizing this is from a post more than two weeks ago, I think the white[ish] plastic doodad circled is an adjuster for your throttle cable. Turn it whichever way makes it so you see less threads (the threads right at the tip of the arrow I drew) on the other side of the bracket and you’re on the right track. It looks WAY stretched to me, the lend and the washer should be against the spring. It’ll adjust like a barrel adjuster for a bicycle cable. 
glyph fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Jul 11, 2018 |
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Jul 11, 2018 02:20
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Looks like some Benzes have that relay behind the battery, up against the firewall? Though looking at your car I can't even tell how that battery fits in there. e: This should be a fun project. Old Benzes seem to share tons of parts with each other which are all readily available and you seem to have the patience, interest, and funds to do it right. Keeps us updated. berth ell pup fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Jul 11, 2018 |
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Jul 11, 2018 03:52
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Adiabatic posted:No this guy is actually doing work to his vehicle, and has at least a semblance of understanding of what he's doing. I haven't seen any mention of pajamas yet either. Dude, you picked one hell of a car to learn to wrench on, but like Frank said, Mercedes support for their old stuff is top notch. You're gonna pay through the dickhole for some of those parts, but the parts exist. As for the radiator? I'm all for OEM on 99% of parts, but when it comes to a radiator, meh. Especially when an OEM one is nearly a grand. It looks like Nissens makes an aftermarket one that's... still painful, but not AS painful, and there's plenty of eBay sellers in the UK and AU selling them. randomidiot fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Jul 11, 2018 |
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Jul 11, 2018 05:34
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Nissens is a good choice. The original was likely made by Behr/Hella if I had to guess. If you're deadset on original OEM parts you may be able to track one of those down: it will be the exact part you'd get in the Mercedes-Benz box, but without the price you pay for the star on the box. In those pictures you posted of the leak it says "[something] Made in Germany" See if you can see what it says there and order accordingly. Just do something because that radiator you have now is beyond being on borrowed time.
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Jul 11, 2018 06:08
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You might say... his old one is hella bad. I'llshowmyselfout
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Jul 11, 2018 07:39
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I dunno how good Rockauto is for older imports but holy drat I hope you're at least aware of them. I wouldn't be able to afford to drive if I hadn't been practically forced to learn how to source my own parts and repair most of the poo poo that keeps breaking, and I drive one of the most ubiquitous domestic GM sedans ever made. Good luck to you on your hell journey you mad bastard. Edit: It's not, so GOOD loving LUCK 
XYZAB fucked around with this message at 09:34 on Jul 11, 2018 |
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Jul 11, 2018 09:26
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Junkyards are a good tip, I've considered them as a source for that EV1 plug (since they're actually impossible to find new around here, for some reason). It's a last resort though, since what I'm aiming for is restoration.berth ell pup posted:Though looking at your car I can't even tell how that battery fits in there. Barely. glyph posted:E: Ah, you’re in Yurp. The $ values and miles threw me off. Dollars and miles are All-American, for your pleasure! Great tip on the plastic doodad by the way, I adjusted the hell out of it today, and the gas pedal feels a whole lot more like in ordinary cars now! I was all ready to toss the whole spring-and-wire contraption, thinking that spring at the end of the cable was broken. You, sir, just saved me $$$dollars.  Otherwise it's been a pretty fun day. The small air filter (C118?) finally got its replacement. As it turns out, the old one was held in place by a pair of screws so grimy I couldn't find them before I noticed the drat thing wasn't coming out. At first I only found this one, the second was hidden sort of "inside" the clasp.  This gave me a much needed opportunity to apply copious amounts of brake cleaner to the inside of my air filter housing...  But that was just warming up! I've still had no luck finding the OVP relay. My best hope was a big black plastic cover on the driver's side fire wall, which turned out to be the windshield wiper motor. The main job, however, remains those last six injectors – and the screws holding them in place. First things first: You get out your power drill, put a 2,5 mm drill bit on the end, and make a hole.  Then, you stick your 2 mm screw extractor on a 3/8" ratchet, and break the extractor clean off inside said hole.  You then get in your daily driver, race over to the place where you bought the drat things, and get a new set. You then ruin one drill bit trying to make a hole through the old extractor, give up, mount your spare 2,5 mm drill bit, and move on to the next screw. You drill a hole in the next screw over...  ...and then promptly break a second extractor clean off inside that screw as well. By the time I got to this point, everything was closed, so I'm going to have to find a clever solution tomorrow. I think I'm going to need a drill bit which can worm its way through tool steel, and bigger extractors. The screws are only 5 mm though, and I'm trying not to ruin the threads, so even going to 3 mm could be pushing it.
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Jul 11, 2018 19:42
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To get those bolts out, I suggest getting some replacement bolts and metal injector hold-down clips, and then using a Dremel with a thin slitting disk, i'd cut a slot right across the top of the head of the bolt so that you can use a nice big flat-blade screwdriver to turn them?
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Jul 11, 2018 20:11
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Actually laughing out loud in a Mcdonalds. That was perfect comedy timing, are you sure you haven't done this before? (I remember a thread a few years ago, someone extracted two bolts in a row without snapping the extractor off and the entire thread was like, "what kind of wizard are you", "what was Satan like when you sold him your soul", that kind of thing)
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Jul 11, 2018 20:15
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meltie posted:To get those bolts out, I suggest getting some replacement bolts and metal injector hold-down clips, and then using a Dremel with a thin slitting disk, i'd cut a slot right across the top of the head of the bolt so that you can use a nice big flat-blade screwdriver to turn them? Yeah, it's beginning to look a lot like that's my only option. I already have a set of replacement screws (part number A 000 984 79 29, OEM all the way!), but since the clips are $12 a pop, and dremeling usually makes nice little sparks right next to those fuel lines... but yep, definitely considering it. I also need a clever way to get all the metal debris from drilling (and potentially cutting) out of the way. Phy posted:Actually laughing out loud in a Mcdonalds. That was perfect comedy timing, are you sure you haven't done this before? You paid me back with a good laugh as well; it's also oddly reassuring to know you have to sell your soul to actually pull this stuff off...
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Jul 11, 2018 20:18
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Pursesnatcher posted:Yeah, it's beginning to look a lot like that's my only option. I already have a set of replacement screws (part number A 000 984 79 29, OEM all the way!), but since the clips are $12 a pop, and dremeling usually makes nice little sparks right next to those fuel lines... but yep, definitely considering it. I also need a clever way to get all the metal debris from drilling (and potentially cutting) out of the way. Hmmm. Use a grinding disc and go slower? I'm not sure how great an idea it is either! Perhaps you could snip the clip off, and then hammer a socket on top of the head of the bolt...
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Jul 11, 2018 20:44
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Ah yes, the joys of screw extractors. For what it's worth I've never successfully used one. Depending on how soft the screws are, sometimes you can hammer an oversized Torx socket bit (e.g, on a 3/8" drive) into the hole until it "bites" the spun-out Allen head and use an impact or hand impact driver to get them out that way. They're probably not really torqued in that hard, but Allen screws are a bitch, every time. Especially if someone's tried to use a wrong or a worn-out wrench on them at some point. If you haven't picked up a jar of anti-seize, do that too. I put it on almost every fastener I touch. Cheap insurance. e: It'll be a real bitch, like nearly impossible, to drill out the ez-out and try again. I'd consider some other strategy. The Dremel one is a good one. The fuel lines, while potentially dangerous and definitely something you need to be cautious around, are probably really not that big of an issue. Perhaps you could start the car and pull out the fuel pump fuse while it's running, and let the car run itself out of gas to clear the lines? e2: as a last resort, since the car runs and drives you might be able to take it to a machine shop and let them dick with it. Since they're everybody's last resort anyway they tend to be really good about doing seemingly-impossible fastener removals like this. berth ell pup fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Jul 11, 2018 |
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Jul 11, 2018 22:16
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Whether you cut a slot for a flat head screwdriver bit, or hammer in a torx, like I said before, get an impact tool and hardened bit drivers. A hand impact and hammer might work and it's only ~$20 for the hand tool (E: though if you buy a cheap tool, throw away the cheap bits and get high quality hardened bits). I also now swear by old ATF fluid mixed with acetone if like me in Australia you can't buy the USA penetrating oils like PB, kroil, liquid wrench etc. Screw extractors hardly ever work as noted when they do they make front page news in AI. Cheap ones are too brittle, so they will snap and now you've got hardened steel you can't drill through again, and have drilled out removed any semblance of gripping points of the hex. Fo3 fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Jul 11, 2018 |
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Jul 11, 2018 22:26
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I'd slow down there before something gets hurt. Put some penetrating oil on each one every day and heat cycle them with a small torch every day(put a wet rag on the lines and injectors so you don't boil them). Then after a week of that try an impact tool. Or take it to a shop, no shame in that for something like this that could snowball badly. Also put some tape over the open top of the injector they need to stay super clean inside. edit: Actually I kinda forgot it's not a diesel. Even if it all gets hosed up I doubt it would be too hard to just find a used manifold off a blown motor. Bibendum fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Jul 11, 2018 |
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Jul 11, 2018 22:50
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