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Max Wilco posted:You could just go the Metal Gear Solid route and just sleep dart all the enemies. thats what i did in MGS 5.
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Jul 1, 2018 23:52
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Psychepath posted:Every game should have Alpha Protocol's "orphans created" counter, where you can marvel at how the 9 men you killed were all widowed and had 54 children between them after each mission. What’s great is that in the Middle East levels the orphans will shoot up, and in the China levels it’ll go up by 1 at a time.
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Jul 2, 2018 00:05
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It sucks that Alpha Protocol didn't do well. I would have loved for it to influence gaming more than it did. It's still probably one of the few games that told a story in a way that took advantage of being a game.
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Jul 2, 2018 00:10
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VanSandman posted:What’s great is that in the Middle East levels the orphans will shoot up, and in the China levels it’ll go up by 1 at a time. AP is easily one of the best games ever made and it's a goddamn travesty that we haven't even at LEAST gotten a remaster of it, let alone a sequel.
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Jul 2, 2018 00:19
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Dapper_Swindler posted:pretty much. honestly it depends on the game. like stuff like spec ops the line makes you feel bad for everything you kill. because the whole thing could maybe be solved if everyone one calmed down for a second. Spec Ops was making this dissonance more explicit by the simple trick of making the "faceless hordes of enemies" American soldiers.
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Jul 2, 2018 00:26
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VanSandman posted:What’s great is that in the Middle East levels the orphans will shoot up, and in the China levels it’ll go up by 1 at a time. holy poo poo thats amazing and hosed up. guess their were alot of salafist orphans in my play through. WampaLord posted:Spec Ops was making this dissonance more explicit by the simple trick of making the "faceless hordes of enemies" American soldiers. not even just that. the arab/persian/rebel enemies are clearly just scared survivors being roped into a sucide pact by the CIA. the whole background story is interesting and depressing as gently caress once you put all the pieces together. Parakeet vs. Phone posted:It sucks that Alpha Protocol didn't do well. I would have loved for it to influence gaming more than it did. It's still probably one of the few games that told a story in a way that took advantage of being a game. it has some much cool and great stuff but it has the issue of being in that weird period of "how do we make a 3rd person shooter thats also an rpg". phase of that era of consoles.
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Jul 2, 2018 00:50
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Way of the Samurai is a good series for reactive story-telling. Nothing crazy like Alpha Protocol but that series is probably one of my faves that doesn't get made any more.
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Jul 2, 2018 00:59
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Way Of The Samurai is the kind of game where at the start, you can see two ruffians drag a girl with them, and one of the options is to propose joining them for a gang rape, and in reply both ruffians get disgusted with your response, tie you to the railroad tracks and nearly every NPC passes by to pass judgment on an unskippable cut scene where it ends with a train turning you into paste. It's a game that knows exactly what audience they're getting, and also willing to show the unsavory ones the door.
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Jul 2, 2018 01:24
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Kunster posted:Way Of The Samurai is the kind of game where at the start, you can see two ruffians drag a girl with them, and one of the options is to propose joining them for a gang rape, and in reply both ruffians get disgusted with your response, tie you to the railroad tracks and nearly every NPC passes by to pass judgment on an unskippable cut scene where it ends with a train turning you into paste. i need to play that game again.
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Jul 2, 2018 02:25
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WampaLord posted:I guess, to me, the difference is scale. Honestly, Indiana always struck me as more hard edged, the kind of guy who just generally lived a rough and tumble 30s adventurer lifestyle with hard living and lots of violence. I don't think he's really meant to be relatable in any real way, you marvel at his adventures and derring-do but he's not designed to be the kind of character you want to sit back and have a beer with, which seems like it really was the idea behind Drake which is where the problem starts to emerge. Also, you're right that just the pure amount of dudes you kill in the Uncharted games starts to get difficult to ignore, it's far beyond Indiana Jones (and both Spielberg and Lucas became apprehensive on making Jones too violent) in that regard, while just generally the violence is much more important as a gameplay pillar in Uncharted than it ever was a thematic element in the Indiana Jones flicks. There's a youtuber I find funny called Thatguytagg who dropped this video of him playing Uncharted recently, and he's a guy who never says anything about games being too violent or Ludonarrative dissonance or whatever, but even he was pretty drat jaded with the game by end: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YzKpM9G02A&t=602s Puppy Time posted:I think ultimately the problem with the henchman's family argument is that if you're the kind of person who would care, you're probably not the kind of person who likes "murder the poo poo out of a bunch of doodz" games in the first place. I can't imagine anyone already enjoying those games would be swayed by an argument about the enemy's imaginary personhood. Basically, it's a problem of tone in my view, you don't see people say things like this about Dead Space or something but Uncharted is different when it comes to things like the characterization and the tone it seems to strive for and how the ramifications of what you're actually doing in the game should probably affect those things. I usually don't care about violence in games but something's always been really weird about Uncharted and the fact that this conversation around these particular games never really goes away might suggest that lots of other people find it weird too and not just because they always dislike violence in videogames. khwarezm fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Jul 2, 2018 |
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Jul 2, 2018 02:28
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khwarezm posted:Basically, it's a problem of tone in my view, you don't see people say things like this about Dead Space or something but Uncharted is different when it comes to things like the characterization and the tone it seems to strive for and how the ramifications of what you're actually doing in the game should probably affect those things. I usually don't care about violence in games but somethings always been really weird about Uncharted and the fact that this conversation around these particular games never really goes away might suggest that lots of other people find it weird too and not just because they always dislike violence in videogames. Makes sense. I'll admit to having no firsthand knowledge; don't have time to play any serious games these days, even if I felt like spending the cash on 'em. It's casual filth for me!
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Jul 2, 2018 02:38
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Yardbomb posted:I love E.Y.E.'s bizarre achievements so much My legs are OK
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Jul 2, 2018 06:07
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Shaun has a new video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhuFWoN1nb0
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Jul 2, 2018 06:11
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khwarezm posted:Basically, it's a problem of tone in my view, you don't see people say things like this about Dead Space or something but Uncharted is different when it comes to things like the characterization and the tone it seems to strive for and how the ramifications of what you're actually doing in the game should probably affect those things. I usually don't care about violence in games but something's always been really weird about Uncharted and the fact that this conversation around these particular games never really goes away might suggest that lots of other people find it weird too and not just because they always dislike violence in videogames. The reason is that pretty much every video game has some explanation behind why you killify things by the hundred. You're a soldier/cop/special government agent like Resident Evil's BSAA/demon/android or the enemy isn't even human like EDF's bug and alien invasion, they're monsters of some kind like in your average fantasy rpg like Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest. No one really gets their hackles up about a quest to clear rat's out of someone's cellar and then you kill 10 rats. Personally, I don't think anything in a game that I do that doesn't get mentioned in a cutscene actually happens but that's just me.
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Jul 2, 2018 08:16
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Video game storytelling has come a long way, but it'll always need to make concessions to the fact that it's still a game and games rely on, among other things, a lot of repetition. A movie like Indiana Jones may last a couple of hours, but a game has to last a lot longer than that and most of that time needs to be comprised of gameplay. The extra time also allows for the gradual increase in difficulty, which is an important gameplay element, and which also requires that the player be given oppertunity to practice to hone their skills. All of which means that if you're designing a game focused on shooting mechanics, there needs to be a lot of shooting going on in order for that to work.RareAcumen posted:Personally, I don't think anything in a game that I do that doesn't get mentioned in a cutscene actually happens but that's just me. This is basically how I interpret turn-based combat in RPGs, among many other silly-sounding things in games. The characters aren't really politely waiting for each other to finish their attacks- that's just an abstract representation of what's actually going on. Nor are they really running around in circles fighting identical groups of enemies in order to level grind. Bakeneko fucked around with this message at 10:42 on Jul 2, 2018 |
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Jul 2, 2018 08:55
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Dapper_Swindler posted:the game mentions a few times that Shoreline is basically just South African Blackwater and do dirty work for dictators and poo poo. Didn't they make a DLC where you play as their leader? Or did I mix something up? Dapper_Swindler posted:thats what i did in MGS 5. Did you then send them across the ocean to be tortured/brainwashed into joining your slave legion? Not exactly the good guy route.
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Jul 2, 2018 10:32
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Hel posted:Didn't they make a DLC where you play as their leader? Or did I mix something up? Their leader Nadine is the sidekick in Lost Legacy after having been ousted from the company because of how catastrophic the events of 4 were for them.
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Jul 2, 2018 10:37
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Alaois posted:Their leader Nadine is the sidekick in Lost Legacy after having been ousted from the company because of how catastrophic the events of 4 were for them. Do they try to redeem her or does being ousted from your PMC make you a good guy despite all the lovely things they did under your command?
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Jul 2, 2018 10:55
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Hel posted:Do they try to redeem her or does being ousted from your PMC make you a good guy despite all the lovely things they did under your command? What redemption? She's always just been (personality-wise) a professional soldier doing a job, and she stays that way. No apologies for what the terrible poo poo she did to earn a paycheque.
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Jul 2, 2018 11:15
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Bakeneko posted:This is basically how I interpret turn-based combat in RPGs, among many other silly-sounding things in games. The characters aren't really politely waiting for each other to finish their attacks- that's just an abstract representation of what's actually going on. Nor are they really running around in circles fighting identical groups of enemies in order to level grind. The "why are they waiting?!" and its sibling "How come enemies don't attack the magical girl while she's transforming?" always bugged me because it's like, do you wonder why characters don't get wise to someone sneaking because the soundtrack changed? How do you not grasp that elements are sometimes there for the audience's sake, and not literal representations of reality?
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Jul 2, 2018 14:18
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Kunster posted:Way Of The Samurai is the kind of game where at the start, you can see two ruffians drag a girl with them, and one of the options is to propose joining them for a gang rape, and in reply both ruffians get disgusted with your response, tie you to the railroad tracks and nearly every NPC passes by to pass judgment on an unskippable cut scene where it ends with a train turning you into paste. Is this real and is there video
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Jul 2, 2018 14:28
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Puppy Time posted:The "why are they waiting?!" and its sibling "How come enemies don't attack the magical girl while she's transforming?" always bugged me because it's like, do you wonder why characters don't get wise to someone sneaking because the soundtrack changed? How do you not grasp that elements are sometimes there for the audience's sake, and not literal representations of reality? That said, the times when someone does attack a magical girl in the middle of their transformation sequence and it just bounces off the insane magical power they’re emitting are pretty badass.
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Jul 2, 2018 14:33
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Darth Walrus posted:That said, the times when someone does attack a magical girl in the middle of their transformation sequence and it just bounces off the insane magical power they’re emitting are pretty badass. If you have to explain why no one's attacked in a transformation sequence, either this or "the transformation is actually instantaneous, we just gave an animator a chance to show off" are good enough for me.
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Jul 2, 2018 15:02
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Bakeneko posted:Video game storytelling has come a long way, but it'll always need to make concessions to the fact that it's still a game and games rely on, among other things, a lot of repetition. A movie like Indiana Jones may last a couple of hours, but a game has to last a lot longer than that and most of that time needs to be comprised of gameplay. The extra time also allows for the gradual increase in difficulty, which is an important gameplay element, and which also requires that the player be given oppertunity to practice to hone their skills. All of which means that if you're designing a game focused on shooting mechanics, there needs to be a lot of shooting going on in order for that to work. Yeah, I mean, it's a game, there has to be game to play along with the story. So they might be a bit overzealous on how many enemies you fight in a scenario sometimes. Oh well. It's better than getting a game you want to enjoy but nothing to do with it. Like, Chris Redfield's been shooting zombies for like 21 years now, but I don't really think he's actually achieved the probably thousands of kills you'd expect from how many games he's in despite how long he's been doing it. You kinda need a lot of enemies to fight or for the few you do encounter to be very tough if you're going to have a difficult game. And I don't really have anything phenomenal or nuanced to say about violence in games so I leave that to everyone else to talk about. Other than Uncharted the only other one I can remember coming up was the Monster Hunter World thing so I barely pay attention to things even at the best of times. Bakeneko posted:This is basically how I interpret turn-based combat in RPGs, among many other silly-sounding things in games. The characters aren't really politely waiting for each other to finish their attacks- that's just an abstract representation of what's actually going on. Nor are they really running around in circles fighting identical groups of enemies in order to level grind. I do that with everything, honestly. I can't help myself. Like, I enjoy Dynasty Warriors games. I don't think I'm actually getting multiple thousands of kills with those characters as far as the story is concerned though since no one ever mentions how Linkle rip and tore through all those moblins or anything. But that's just me. Anyway, can someone explain ludonarritive dissonance succinctly? Is it just when gameplay and cutscene clash or is there more to it? Because I can think of a couple examples if that's all it boils down to. Like the new God of War with all these amazing feats of strength and such going on in the first boss fight and then you get to the rest of the game and it's climbing up chains to a ledge not that much higher than your house and if you get hit six times by some scrub 'introducing you to combat' dragur you fall over dead. That feels weird.
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Jul 2, 2018 15:19
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RareAcumen posted:Anyway, can someone explain ludonarritive dissonance succinctly? Is it just when gameplay and cutscene clash or is there more to it? Basically it's when gameplay emphasizes one thing while the narrative emphasizes another. For example, in Bioshock Infinite, Booker DeWitt is a man who is plagued by thoughts of his violent past and doesn't want to commit any more violence, but the gameplay is telling you "okay now skyhook slam into this dude because look how awesome it looks"
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Jul 2, 2018 15:24
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Funnily enough, one of the ideas behind Drakengard was imagining the type of dude who would regularly and literally kill thousands of dudes on the field.
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Jul 2, 2018 15:39
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Yoko Taro in general is very much interested in exploring the mentality and consequences of various gameplay standards. I dislike auteur theory as a thing but it's undeniably a very common theme in the projects he's associated with.
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Jul 2, 2018 15:50
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WampaLord posted:Basically it's when gameplay emphasizes one thing while the narrative emphasizes another. Ah so like how everyone keeps going on about how hot Ann and is in Persona 5- plus her costume- after dealing with the pedo teacher. I was thinking like those Dragon Ball Z RPGs where they have you going through dungeons despite the fact that you can fly and level mountains at will.
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Jul 2, 2018 15:52
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I think what's often missed is that it's not inherently a bad thing, either. Spec Ops: The Line uses ludonarrative dissonance in a fantastic way.
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Jul 2, 2018 16:02
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Puppy Time posted:The "why are they waiting?!" and its sibling "How come enemies don't attack the magical girl while she's transforming?" always bugged me because it's like, do you wonder why characters don't get wise to someone sneaking because the soundtrack changed? How do you not grasp that elements are sometimes there for the audience's sake, and not literal representations of reality? in the latest dragon ball series one character just throws a rock at someone when they're going through a transformation sequence and all his friends yell at him for being a poor sport
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Jul 2, 2018 16:16
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Anyway, me not understanding terms aside, Shaun is absolutely right in how we need to ridicule gamers and call them snowflakes instead of racists and homophobes. Also he missed a beautiful opportunity to use footage of people smashing their Keurigs in protest of company pulling ads from Sean Hannity's show.
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Jul 2, 2018 17:11
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Bakeneko posted:Video game storytelling has come a long way, but it'll always need to make concessions to the fact that it's still a game and games rely on, among other things, a lot of repetition. A movie like Indiana Jones may last a couple of hours, but a game has to last a lot longer than that and most of that time needs to be comprised of gameplay. The extra time also allows for the gradual increase in difficulty, which is an important gameplay element, and which also requires that the player be given oppertunity to practice to hone their skills. All of which means that if you're designing a game focused on shooting mechanics, there needs to be a lot of shooting going on in order for that to work. Yeah, but in games like Uncharted I kind of would have liked if the gameplay direction had a different focus, like if it was far more about in-depth platforming like the old Tomb Raider games and maybe had enemy encounters more based around stealth rather than shooting it would have been like the perfect series for me personally, though I appreciate that would turn off a lot of people. I like certain games a lot where it feels like they do a very good job tying the gameplay to the overall story and theming, I guess that's an obvious thing to say but, like, in the first two Thief games or the most recent Hitman title high level gameplay really makes you feel like a sneaky, undetectable thief or master assassin and it feels so good, though admittedly both games have lots of jank too. Or even something like Dark Souls or Far Cry 2 where the gameplay systems do a very good job at communicating to the player the overall themes of the works while the story and setting further underline this. Because of that I don't like the idea of treating a lot of the gameplay in a given game as 'non-canon' if it clashes too much with the story, it feels like a failure on some level, I remember Errant Signal called this the oil and water approach and that's how I see it too.
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Jul 2, 2018 17:18
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WampaLord posted:Basically it's when gameplay emphasizes one thing while the narrative emphasizes another.
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Jul 2, 2018 17:22
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Dapper_Swindler posted:yeah, i have always wondered that kinda poo poo too. its one of the reasons i loved arkham city was the small henchmen stories and conversations. like how immigration policy in jokers area changes from day to day. henchmen conversation in games is just one of my favorite things. like in some cases i can sorta see why someone would sigh up with the bad guy, in others. not so much. One of my favorite henchmen moment was in Tomb Raider 2016 when one of the henchmen suggested that they should team up with Lara since she was pretty good at killing and because they had a common enemy. Then one henchman (or Lara) starts shooting. Dapper_Swindler posted:not even just that. the arab/persian/rebel enemies are clearly just scared survivors being roped into a sucide pact by the CIA.
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Jul 2, 2018 17:32
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RareAcumen posted:Ah so like how everyone keeps going on about how hot Ann and is in Persona 5- plus her costume- after dealing with the pedo teacher. I was thinking like those Dragon Ball Z RPGs where they have you going through dungeons despite the fact that you can fly and level mountains at will. The Persona thing sounds a bit more like just plain old narrative dissonance, but yeah that DBZ thing is correct. Or like Shadow of Mordor/War, where the story wants you to think of Talion as a good guy who's nice and cares despite the actual gameplay revolving around treating orcs like disposable tools, to the point of blowing up your own crew's heads just to scare the other side. Series would have really done better to just go all in on having a villain protagonist.
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Jul 2, 2018 17:35
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I mean in it's defense orcs are literally disposable tools for the dark or whichever other lord, they only exist to fight and destroy.
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Jul 2, 2018 17:40
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TGLT posted:The Persona thing sounds a bit more like just plain old narrative dissonance, but yeah that DBZ thing is correct. Or like Shadow of Mordor/War, where the story wants you to think of Talion as a good guy who's nice and cares despite the actual gameplay revolving around treating orcs like disposable tools, to the point of blowing up your own crew's heads just to scare the other side. I dunno, I think Talion cares. About the race of Man. Seeing orcs as disposable seems about right though.
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Jul 2, 2018 17:41
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Yardbomb posted:I mean in it's defense orcs are literally disposable tools for the dark or whichever other lord, they only exist to fight and destroy. Excuse me, some of them do poetry and songs (mostly about murder). The game does a lot to make the orcs feel more alive, and it makes it a bit awkward when you need to pop one of their heads. RareAcumen posted:I dunno, I think Talion cares. Oh it's totally in character, I just wish the story acknowledged it the way it does with Celebrimbor. It'd be more interesting than the generic revenge story Talion gets if they actually went all in on it instead of letting it oscillate between "I have to save everyone!" and "Time to enslave these blood bags so I can heal." Dude's ruthless.
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Jul 2, 2018 17:44
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Yardbomb posted:I mean in it's defense orcs are literally disposable tools for the dark or whichever other lord, they only exist to fight and destroy. The game the orcs far too much personality for that to work imo
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Jul 2, 2018 17:44
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TGLT posted:Oh it's totally in character, I just wish the story acknowledged it the way it does with Celebrimbor. It'd be more interesting than the generic revenge story Talion gets if they actually went all in on it instead of letting it oscillate between "I have to save everyone!" and "Time to enslave these blood bags so I can heal." Dude's ruthless. Again, I think he's more concerned with keeping humans alive and would be just fine wiping every orc, olog-hai, graug, Nazgul, etc. off the map.
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Jul 2, 2018 17:48
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