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sexpig by night posted:no, it wasn't. General 'the blacks just aren't as enlightened'? Sure, but no literal 'they're fuckin ape people not actual humans like us' was really super out of vogue. I'm pretty sure you're gonna get diabetes from sugar-coating it that much, dude
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Jul 4, 2018 02:21
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Darth Walrus posted:Mind you, some of this is because his particular, bizarre version of racial theory was very accommodating to certain minorities being One Of The Good Ones. Some of this was because he held race to be highly temporary (basically, he thought evolution happened much, much faster than it actually does), and some of it was because unlike Lovecraft, he wasn’t a big fan of ‘civilisation’, which he saw as breeding corruption and weakness, just as ‘savagery’ made people crude and bestial. Instead, he liked the golden mean of strong, vital ‘barbarism’, frontier nations that did not forsake culture, but kept themselves strong through hardship and conflict. So if, say, he met a black person he liked, then he could consider them a barbarian who showed that there was still hope for black people to rise above their present savagery. yeah, he was a weird dude who was a giant super mothers boy taken to an extreme.
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Jul 4, 2018 02:22
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And it's genuinely lovely! In-depth, charming and full of information. I learned a few things!
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Jul 4, 2018 02:31
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Arcsquad12 posted:Waspinator is the best henchman constantly getting abused Decepticon/Predacon Its funny that Waspinator started out as a Management-mandated character despised by the writers, but by the end of season 1 they were fighting to KEEP him in over Terrorsaur and Scorpinok. Wassspinator live to suffer for rest of show.
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Jul 4, 2018 02:40
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Its funny that Waspinator started out as a Management-mandated character despised by the writers, but by the end of season 1 they were fighting to KEEP him in over Terrorsaur and Scorpinok. didnt they introduce some new character only to kill them off like an episode later because they wernt sure if the toy would be for sale.
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Jul 4, 2018 02:43
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Waspinator can't die. Waspinator has plans.
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Jul 4, 2018 02:46
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Ghostlight posted:A lot of people are more familiar with the breadth of work based on Lovecraft and bearing his name than on his works themselves, and also a sizable contingent of his direct fans deny the depth of his racism to the degree that one of the invited speakers to NecronomiCON pulled out based on the presence of another speaker who had years previously put forward a motion to remove Lovecraft's image from an award due to the racist content of his writings. True, but once you know the name, your only 1 or 2 links away from a "top 10 most racist lovecraft stories". I don't think the difference is in how racist he was, because everyone agrees HP Lovecraft was racist, it's more how mad should you be that HP Lovecraft was racist and I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't be mad at all. He's a product of the system of white supremacy and not an active contributor unlike many other men of his time who still have there names on rewards, money, theme parks, monuments, etc.
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Jul 4, 2018 02:50
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OmanyteJackson posted:True, but once you know the name, your only 1 or 2 links away from a "top 10 most racist lovecraft stories". I'm not mad per se, but it colors his work in a way that just being kind of racist in your personal life doesn't. Like, it's hard to miss the blatantness of it when reading any of it, which is a bit unfortunate. I can stomach it enough to enjoy the parts I enjoy, in small doses at least, but I don't blame anyone who can't.
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Jul 4, 2018 02:53
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Hot take: Walt Disney has done more lasting harm to lgbtq, woman, and minorities than HP Lovecraft.
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Jul 4, 2018 02:54
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It is worth noting that Lovecraft was, as I remember, the only Hitler-supporter in Weird Tales’s stable, although that was probably only because Howard thought Celts were a superior race to Saxons.
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Jul 4, 2018 02:55
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Excuse me Howard thought the Jews were cool warrior guys subverted by the evils of Roman/European decadence. Get it right fam.
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Jul 4, 2018 02:58
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Terrible Opinions posted:Excuse me Howard thought the Jews were cool warrior guys subverted by the evils of Roman/European decadence. Get it right fam. He was also a big fan of Celts, though (it’s really common in his work), and let’s just say that he offers a lot of ambiguity about whether the ‘Shemites’ are more corrupted or corrupters. Like, heroic Shemites exist, but they really are his go-to evil civilised race.
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Jul 4, 2018 03:03
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Wait, is H.Bomb being queer news or did I miss something a while back?
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Jul 4, 2018 03:10
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Dapper_Swindler posted:didnt they introduce some new character only to kill them off like an episode later because they wernt sure if the toy would be for sale. I THINK that was Tigerhawk? He lasted all of about 3 episodes.
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Jul 4, 2018 03:14
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Hbomb mentioned being bi on curiouscat or somesuch a few months back, maybe a year?
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Jul 4, 2018 03:16
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Puppy Time posted:I mean, that is literally a common attitude of the time, so it's not really going against the "product of his time" argument. One of the things that I wanted Bomberguy to go into more detail about is how Lovecraft wasn't just "a product of his time" but was actually absurdly racist even by the standards of the absurdly racist time he lived in. Like, Jim Crow, Birth of a Nation, KKK-revival America looked at Lovecraft and went "whoah, that dude is pretty racist."
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Jul 4, 2018 03:39
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OmanyteJackson posted:True, but once you know the name, your only 1 or 2 links away from a "top 10 most racist lovecraft stories". His work has meaning because we fear the unknown, but we will never accept the unknown while we tell ourselves stories about how unacceptable it is. Also, as a hugely influential artist, he does in fact still have his name on literary awards and monuments.
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Jul 4, 2018 03:46
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Darth Walrus posted:Mind you, some of this is because his particular, bizarre version of racial theory was very accommodating to certain minorities being One Of The Good Ones. Some of this was because he held race to be highly temporary (basically, he thought evolution happened much, much faster than it actually does), and some of it was because unlike Lovecraft, he wasn’t a big fan of ‘civilisation’, which he saw as breeding corruption and weakness, just as ‘savagery’ made people crude and bestial. Instead, he liked the golden mean of strong, vital ‘barbarism’, frontier nations that did not forsake culture, but kept themselves strong through hardship and conflict. So if, say, he met a black person he liked, then he could consider them a barbarian who showed that there was still hope for black people to rise above their present savagery. Yeeeea that is an important caveat. He was super far from 'enlightened' about stuff still, it was just more that he was willing to go 'well yea but just because he's black doesn't mean he HAS to be some kinda backwards savage' which, like, for the time considering he was from small town texas and all, that did put him above the guys going 'nah man they're all fuckin animals' but...yea he never exactly had a 'see the light' moment, he was just more open to individuals than someone like, say, Lovecraft was. His views on 'civilization' also made him very unique in the 'spooky outsiders are evil' crowd, yea. He very much had no respect for 'modernity' as some example of how the people in charge are so much more evolved which is interesting. Conan became very much a unique kinda thing even if it was built on very problematic blocks. You can get the same kinda Lovecraft stuff from other horror writers (  whoo whoo whoo hot take alert Lovecraft's uniqueness mainly came to him giving names to what other horror writers just described and most of the ~mythos~ that we love so much was an afterthought or came from non-HP sources.) but Conan honestly is a kinda unique take on its genre of pulpy low magic fantasy and all just because Howard was a WEIRD dude even among weird writers.
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Jul 4, 2018 03:51
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Mr.Radar posted:H. Bomb has a new video about HP Lovecraft, a somewhat obscure 2008 adaptation of The Shadow over Innsmouth, and a journey of personal discovery: Really, really good stuff. Darth Walrus posted:Mind you, some of this is because his particular, bizarre version of racial theory was very accommodating to certain minorities being One Of The Good Ones. Some of this was because he held race to be highly temporary (basically, he thought evolution happened much, much faster than it actually does), and some of it was because unlike Lovecraft, he wasn’t a big fan of ‘civilisation’, which he saw as breeding corruption and weakness, just as ‘savagery’ made people crude and bestial. Instead, he liked the golden mean of strong, vital ‘barbarism’, frontier nations that did not forsake culture, but kept themselves strong through hardship and conflict. So if, say, he met a black person he liked, then he could consider them a barbarian who showed that there was still hope for black people to rise above their present savagery. Civilization being decadent was one of the many tropes of real life Nazism. He, himself, was hella racial theory racist. You can see it in his Conan work, but it really stands out in, say, his Solomon Kane in Africa stories.
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Jul 4, 2018 03:58
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FoldableHuman posted:One of the things that I wanted Bomberguy to go into more detail about is how Lovecraft wasn't just "a product of his time" but was actually absurdly racist even by the standards of the absurdly racist time he lived in. Like, Jim Crow, Birth of a Nation, KKK-revival America looked at Lovecraft and went "whoah, that dude is pretty racist." pretty much. while people like howard were more of "product of their time" with weird twists. Lovecraft was weirdo who basicaly thought anyone who wasn't a aristocratic inbred WASP was a subhuman. sexpig by night posted:Yeeeea that is an important caveat. He was super far from 'enlightened' about stuff still, it was just more that he was willing to go 'well yea but just because he's black doesn't mean he HAS to be some kinda backwards savage' which, like, for the time considering he was from small town texas and all, that did put him above the guys going 'nah man they're all fuckin animals' but...yea he never exactly had a 'see the light' moment, he was just more open to individuals than someone like, say, Lovecraft was. this. i'll take howard fun conan/kane pulpy adventure romps over weird dickheads paranoid poo poo over "lesser Europeans" "mixing". i like some of lovecrafts stories but give me KROM anyday.
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Jul 4, 2018 04:01
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Ok to be fair 'civilization robs man of a certain element and we must decide if that is a price we're willing to pay for safety and enlightenment' is way older than fascism's grabbing it and going "YEA THE JEWS ARE MAKING YOU INTO QUEERS GO INTO THE MOUNTAINS AND SHOOT AN ELK"
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Jul 4, 2018 04:02
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I will not defend Solomon Kane's African Race Theory Tour tho yea that was just hosed up
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Jul 4, 2018 04:03
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sexpig by night posted:I will not defend Solomon Kane's African Race Theory Tour tho yea that was just hosed up yeah, pretty much. but i always picture kane sounding like victor saltzpyre from the vermintide games which kinda works in a sad way. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Jul 4, 2018 |
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Jul 4, 2018 04:04
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Really, really good stuff. I mean, yeah, his whole thing was a particular sort of protofascism that didn’t end up having space in it for the Nazis when they arose. So his extolling of conflict being a vitalising force meant that he didn’t believe that the existence of barbarians among savages (or civilised people, but mostly savages) meant savages should be spared - instead, it meant that savages should be slaughtered until their corruption was pared away and their pure barbarian essence was all that remained.
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Jul 4, 2018 04:07
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Skull in the Stars is pretty legit, though, mainly because Solomon's weird puritan rear end stays in England through all of it and just fights...ghosts I think? He deals with Spooky Swamp poo poo and it's cool.
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Jul 4, 2018 04:07
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Darth Walrus posted:I mean, yeah, his whole thing was a particular sort of protofascism that didn’t end up having space in it for the Nazis when they arose. So his extolling of conflict being a vitalising force meant that he didn’t believe that the existence of barbarians among savages (or civilised people, but mostly savages) meant savages should be spared - instead, it meant that savages should be slaughtered until their corruption was pared away and their pure barbarian essence was all that remained. pretty much. the dude never moved away from his parents and had so much of a oedipal complex that he topped himself in the driveway when his mom died. i always find it interesting that these are the types of dudes who have the "super mans man barbarian savior race" beliefs. that being said, his views got better later in life, plus he was pretty forward with his views on women. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_of_Robert_E._Howard Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 04:21 on Jul 4, 2018 |
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Jul 4, 2018 04:18
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hahaha christ Dan where do you find this poo poo https://twitter.com/FoldableHuman/status/1014277582181679104
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Jul 4, 2018 04:21
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Thompsons posted:hahaha christ Dan where do you find this poo poo i am amused how these morons just double down in their dumb awful bullshit. its sad.
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Jul 4, 2018 04:22
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FoldableHuman posted:One of the things that I wanted Bomberguy to go into more detail about is how Lovecraft wasn't just "a product of his time" but was actually absurdly racist even by the standards of the absurdly racist time he lived in. Like, Jim Crow, Birth of a Nation, KKK-revival America looked at Lovecraft and went "whoah, that dude is pretty racist." Birth of the Nation also got called out as racist when it came out by people like Jane Addams and Booker T. Washington. The conversation around the movie was hilariously similar to similar conversations on race to happen today, complete with D.W. Griffith publishing a pamphlet alleging that his right to free speech was under attack.
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Jul 4, 2018 04:29
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Linear Zoetrope posted:I'm not mad per se, but it colors his work in a way that just being kind of racist in your personal life doesn't. Like, it's hard to miss the blatantness of it when reading any of it, which is a bit unfortunate. I can stomach it enough to enjoy the parts I enjoy, in small doses at least, but I don't blame anyone who can't. I've grown up in a time where racism was only been expressed in innuendo and it was never controversial. It was only when what was assumed was said plainly that the broader population reacted. I'm not saying that anyone is wrong for not liking Lovecraft's work for whatever reason, but maybe investigate where you draw the line because the most toxic racist ideas are the ones that escape scrutiny because of decorum. Ghostlight posted:Being a hugely influential artist actually does make him an "active contributor", whether or not he was a product of the "system of white supremacy" (we are all products of our environment, but that does not absolve any of us from ever becoming more than our environment) because his art, infused with his essential beliefs, retains a large cultural influence not just directly but through the subsequent art it inspired and the art inspired by that, all drawing consciously or unconsciously on those themes he used for such radical dehumanisation which in turn create those connections in the consumers of it. Influential, sure, but hugely? Can you really say HP Lovecraft's work, not even his racism, has influenced a single law or policy? Has anything by or influenced by Lovecraft inspired any harm to any marginalized group? Where are the Randians but for lovecraft? Also, what? Inspiration isn't a copy machine. Artist pick and choose themes of media that resonate with them and explore it. its how vampires went from scary foreigners to sexy teens, It's how the Creature of the Black Lagoon inspired the Shape of Water. It's how Shadow Over Innsmouth inspired Cthulhu from the HBomb vid that was just posted. The entire history of loving batman.
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Jul 4, 2018 04:32
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This may seem weirdly specific, but does anyone know of any channels that cover gamebooks like Choose Your Own Adventure, and Give Yourself Goosebumps?
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Jul 4, 2018 04:32
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Solitair posted:Birth of the Nation also got called out as racist when it came out by people like Jane Addams and Booker T. Washington. The conversation around the movie was hilariously similar to similar conversations on race to happen today, complete with D.W. Griffith publishing a pamphlet alleging that his right to free speech was under attack. D.W. Griffith's Intolerance was literally made as a response to critics who called him racist for Birth of a Nation, saying "how dare you be so intolerant of me and my ideas."
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Jul 4, 2018 05:06
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Ghostlight posted:A lot of people are more familiar with the breadth of work based on Lovecraft and bearing his name than on his works themselves, and also a sizable contingent of his direct fans deny the depth of his racism to the degree that one of the invited speakers to NecronomiCON pulled out based on the presence of another speaker who had years previously put forward a motion to remove Lovecraft's image from an award due to the racist content of his writings. Hmm, i got the impression that Lovecrafts fans have no problem admitting that he was super racist. I could be wrong of course. Personally, i kind of prefer the derivatives of Lovecraft's work like Stross' "A colder war" or the Laundry series to his works. Or that Gaiman story about Moriarty.
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Jul 4, 2018 05:11
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englerp posted:Hmm, i got the impression that Lovecrafts fans have no problem admitting that he was super racist. I could be wrong of course. A Study in Emerald is good. It's available on Gaiman's website for free. His Shoggoth's Old Peculiar is also pretty good.
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Jul 4, 2018 05:14
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OmanyteJackson posted:Influential, sure, but hugely? Can you really say HP Lovecraft's work, not even his racism, has influenced a single law or policy? Has anything by or influenced by Lovecraft inspired any harm to any marginalized group? Where are the Randians but for lovecraft? OmanyteJackson posted:Also, what? Inspiration isn't a copy machine. Artist pick and choose themes of media that resonate with them and explore it. its how vampires went from scary foreigners to sexy teens, It's how the Creature of the Black Lagoon inspired the Shape of Water. It's how Shadow Over Innsmouth inspired Cthulhu from the HBomb vid that was just posted. The entire history of loving batman. At no point was I making the case that inspiration is simply copying. These works all share the same essential themes of their inspiration, and just like someone may watch Creature From the Black Lagoon and see themselves in its fish-man, desperately trying to find companionship in a society that rejects them, and in turn make a film in which they do; someone may watch Shape of Water and believe that in fact not only does the fish-man not belong in society, but maybe suspicious mutes shouldn't either.
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Jul 4, 2018 05:51
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GeekGroup has a follow-up video to their Stegosaurus episode of Your Dinosaurs Are Wrong. It's really cool to see how skeleton mountings change over time to better match current scientific discoveries.
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Jul 4, 2018 06:15
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englerp posted:Personally, i kind of prefer the derivatives of Lovecraft's work like Stross' "A colder war" or the Laundry series to his works. Or that Gaiman story about Moriarty. I adore stories that actively revise Lovecraft's work and rebut its problematic elements, like Ruthanna Emrys's "The Litany of Earth", Victor LaValle's The Ballad of Black Tom, and Kij Johnson's The Dream-Quest of Vellitt Boe.
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Jul 4, 2018 06:34
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englerp posted:Hmm, i got the impression that Lovecrafts fans have no problem admitting that he was super racist. I could be wrong of course. Depends on the fans. There's still a general idea of "if I just don't acknowledge race existing, then nothing is racist and everything is fine!" still floating around from the time when we were convinced that Being Colorblind was the way to Solve Racism Forever. (Just in the current cultural climate that's a lot harder to maintain.) So of course there's going to be fans of the mythos/setting who get all "No no no don't bring There's also the fans who will give a token "yeah, he was racist" but then want to pretend like it wasn't baked into a large swath of his stories or something. Turns out, a lot of people struggle with "I like this thing, but it's got some serious inherent problems" and would rather avoid wrestling with the philosophical quagmire that is "how can I still like this thing when the creator is a garbage human whose attitudes are built in?" It can feel a lot like the only answer is "Completely abandon this thing you like, that may have given meaning to your life, because it has Bad Things," especially if you're not really experienced with the nuance of "basically everything is #problematic and the best you can hope for is to kind of mitigate some of it sometimes." FoldableHuman posted:One of the things that I wanted Bomberguy to go into more detail about is how Lovecraft wasn't just "a product of his time" but was actually absurdly racist even by the standards of the absurdly racist time he lived in. Like, Jim Crow, Birth of a Nation, KKK-revival America looked at Lovecraft and went "whoah, that dude is pretty racist." Yeah, deffo, just... those particular cited attitudes were not that extreme at the time.
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Jul 4, 2018 06:58
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BigRed0427 posted:Wait, is H.Bomb being queer news or did I miss something a while back? It sort of came up in the Sherlock review during the bit about Moriarty. It wasn't explicit, though.
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Jul 4, 2018 07:48
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Solitair posted:Birth of the Nation also got called out as racist when it came out by people like Jane Addams and Booker T. Washington. The conversation around the movie was hilariously similar to similar conversations on race to happen today, complete with D.W. Griffith publishing a pamphlet alleging that his right to free speech was under attack. Like, it's very frustrating when people resort to the 'product of their time' concerning things like Birth of the Nation and, yes, Lovecraft, because that implies they were neutrally reflecting viewpoints that were totally solidified into society at the time. The truth is that the 1910s and 1920s could actually be described as a really bad degenerative period when it came to race in America, and a lot of that was deliberately stoked by people who full well knew exactly what they were doing, BotN is a prime example of that and is just a really good argument in general about the potentially dangerous effects of popular art, the film's glorification of the KKK and demonization of African Americans was extremely important in reviving the Klan in that period, not to mention the acclaim it got from people like Woodrow Wilson. This was the period when the lost cause mythos was at it's peak because of stuff like BotN, interestingly most monuments concerning Confederate figures were erected in the 1910s and 1920s, politicians like Wilson managed to expand segregation, the Klan was at it's absolute peak as a normalized element of society and Jim Crow was resolutely established in the South. All the while you had activists and intellectuals like Dubois or Washington trying to push back but to no avail, people were fully aware about the nature of the system, they just didn't care.
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Jul 4, 2018 09:49
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