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The Rebel Alliance's plan was to kidnap/rescue the Death Star's chief engineer, so that he can testify to the Senate that this giant boondoggle of an atrocity machine exists - and outside the Senate's control, no less. (A faction within the Alliance instead wanted to assassinate him so that it could not be completed, which wouldn't have worked because it was basically done and all he was doing at this point was stalling.) Because Galen Erso was killed the first rescue attempt, the backup plan was to secure evidence of the Death Star's existence by raiding the data center where the blueprints were archived, and present that to the Senate. A faction within the Alliance hosed off because they thought this was a terrible plan; others went along with it because they thought it was better than just giving up. At the same time, Galen had no confidence in parliamentary procedure to prevent the Death Star from being used, so he sabotaged the design in such a way that would require specialist knowledge to exploit, and Jyn serendipitously escaped with the part of the plans that described the sabotage. The evidence was delivered to Leia, and the idea was that she and her father would present it to the Senate as part of a bid to drum up the votes needed to undo the Empire. However, the Emperor moved first by telling the Senate their services were no longer necessary and letting Tarkin make a show of force to explain why they can't do anything about it. (Blowing up a planet represented in the Senate by his former political rival Bail Organa and his vehemently anti-imperial daughter Leia was the kind of sadistic twist that is emblematic of why Sheev liked Wilhuff so much.) The members of the Alliance who had remained after Galen Erso's death and survived the Battle of Scarif wound up with the fragment of the plans by roundabout means and, already self-selected for preferring daring raids to political stratagems, decided to attempt to exploit the weakness described in it. This attempt succeeded because of a literal miracle, which Luke performed because unlike Vader he listened to the Force in preference to a targeting computer. Luke therefore became the de facto leader of that rebel remnant, and they spent some time getting their rear end kicked up and down the galaxy before finally regrouping with the better-equipped and more patient faction led by the former senator Mon Mothma.
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Jul 11, 2018 01:22
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ruddiger posted:From the opening crawl of A New Hope If her goal were to "publicize" the Death Star in heading home to Alderaan -- using a blueprint? which will convince people because...? --- she could "publicize" the Death Star by going somewhere else after Alderaan was destroyed. That was not her goal. As was already pointed out, the plans, not knowledge of the Death Star's existence, were going to save her people. She was taking them to the Rebels, and after Alderaan was destroyed, she still took them to the Rebels.
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Jul 11, 2018 02:49
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The Death Star wasn’t a secret by ANH—they were already blowing up planets in Rogue One, and presumably people have cellphones in star wars.
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Jul 11, 2018 02:55
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porfiria posted:The Death Star wasn’t a secret by ANH—they were already blowing up planets in Rogue One, and presumably people have cellphones in star wars. Jedha was passed off as a mining accident, and Scarif was an Imperial base; plus they only single-reactor'd those two. Alderaan was the first full planet destruction
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Jul 11, 2018 02:57
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porfiria posted:The Death Star wasn’t a secret by ANH—they were already blowing up planets in Rogue One, and presumably people have cellphones in star wars. Despite the existence of computers, Star Wars do not take place in an information age. It's easy to keep secrets. Entire planets have been forgotten because one person deleted them from one map.
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Jul 11, 2018 02:58
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There’s no way they kept that thing off instagram for 20 years unless the humans in the galaxy far far away aren’t actually human and they don’t have the gossip gene.
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Jul 11, 2018 02:59
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The holonet was pretty much for middle-class and above people only even during the Republic, and was completely restricted to military and official broadcast use only during the Empire. Seriously, there's no interplanetary equivalent to instagram, youtube or twitter.
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Jul 11, 2018 03:02
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Who do we see speaking via space-holo-telephone in Star Wars anyway? Vader and the Emperor. Vader and various officers. Those were both in ESB. There's also Leia's recording in ANH and Luke's recording in RotJ. Generally, it seems like all discussions require people to be in the same room.
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Jul 11, 2018 03:04
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porfiria posted:There’s no way they kept that thing off instagram for 20 years unless the humans in the galaxy far far away aren’t actually human and they don’t have the gossip gene. They constructed it in secret, successfully. Nobody knew about it. The destruction of Jedha was subject to a cover-up (they blamed it on rebels with conventional weaponry), and the only surviving witnesses to the destruction of the facility on Scarif were the same people who counterattacked it like two days later.
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Jul 11, 2018 03:04
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Bongo Bill posted:They constructed it in secret, successfully. Nobody knew about it. The destruction of Jedha was subject to a cover-up (they blamed it on rebels with conventional weaponry), and the only surviving witnesses to the destruction of the facility on Scarif were the same people who counterattacked it like two days later. I suppose there are also various crewmen on the imperial star ships and the Death Star who would have observed the destruction on Scarif (and seen the Death Star itself). In real life it would be pretty much impossible to stop that information from getting all around the imperial military pretty quickly, even without an Internet, but it’s fine to sacrifice some realism to preserve the intrigue.
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Jul 11, 2018 07:32
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Both the Republic and the Empire have crazy good opsec. The Resistance, not so much.
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Jul 11, 2018 17:32
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Harime Nui posted:Anti-alien sentiment was at the core of the Empire's ideology and explains its swift hold over the Core Worlds. It's insanely easy for them to recruit disaffected and idle humans into the Imperial Navy and wage perpetual war on hapless aliens like the Wookies as a kind of makework program. It also explains why 30 years after Endor, the First Order controls virtually everything----the people (in the Core Worlds) are on their side. This is something of a through line between the Empire and Republic, they’re both multicultural but what unites all these cultures is a Also to bring it further, somewhat naively, another undercurrent here would arguably be that the Republic-Empire were strangely non-secular but multicultural.
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Jul 11, 2018 18:49
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The whole human supremacism theory is very silly even by the standards of Star Wars readings.
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Jul 11, 2018 20:04
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homullus posted:If her goal were to "publicize" the Death Star in heading home to Alderaan -- using a blueprint? which will convince people because...? --- she could "publicize" the Death Star by going somewhere else after Alderaan was destroyed. You need to be careful. Alderaan is not the Rebellion. It’s a kingdom that is providing materiel support to the Rebellion because the king is struggling to maintain his sovereignty. While Leia has “hope” that the DS tapes could be of some use to King Organa, she is playing it safe - sticking with the King’s original mission. That mission is to bring Obiwan to Alderaan, so that he can lead the Alderaanian military (such as it is) in combat against Palpatine’s regional governors - without Alliance support. Leia hopes that her father can use the plans to prove to the Alliance that the Death Star exists, and thereby rally the Rebel forces to his cause. But, after Alderaan is destroyed, Leia is forced to improvise. She brings the tapes directly to the Rebel base, luring the Death Star into a confrontation with whatever forces remain: “I only hope that when the data's analyzed, a weakness can be found.” Note that Leia has no clue about Erso’s sabotage. She hopes that a weakness can be found, not the weakness. But this is just reiterating stuff that moving away from your assertion that the poverty of Rose’s Republic mining town was caused by insufficient liberal capitalism.
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Jul 11, 2018 20:06
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:The whole human supremacism theory is very silly even by the standards of Star Wars readings. Right, hence the important part I was getting at is that the ideology of racism is present within the Republic and the Empire whilst they’re both multicultural - but where droids are considered to be "talking tools" and so on. e: Though often what's being got at with that line of thought is that the military of the Empire, as presented, for the most part are "human", where the Rebellion on the other hand is more multicultural, diverse or whatever - that is to say it's a liberal critique, where the ideology of racism under capital isn't challenged. brawleh fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Jul 11, 2018 |
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Jul 11, 2018 20:16
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Maybe I should have said the Empire's rhetoric, not ideology.
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Jul 11, 2018 20:20
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brawleh posted:This is something of a through line between the Empire and Republic, they’re both multicultural but what unites all these cultures is a The Empire are literal human supremacists. The other side simply has flaws in their system. tadashi fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Jul 11, 2018 |
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Jul 11, 2018 21:20
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Not that you can tell from A New Hope, but I'm pretty sure Alderaan is ruled by a queen, and her husband, Senator Bail Organa, would technically be styled a Prince Consort.
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Jul 11, 2018 21:22
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:You need to be careful. Alderaan is not the Rebellion. It’s a kingdom that is providing materiel support to the Rebellion because the king is struggling to maintain his sovereignty. My assertions are (1) systems are repeatedly shown to be only distantly affected by Republic/Empire, if at all (Tatooine, Cloud City, Canto Bight), (2) the Republic and Empire, while related themselves, are far from identical in their treatment of corporate representation, and therefore (3) enough time has passed in Episodes that Rose's system's poverty cannot be laid at the feet of Leia's Republic. Bail Organa is never NOT shown to be in league with all the major figures of the Rebellion, though. When we see him, we see Rebels. While Alderaan is not "the Rebellion", Bail Organa is. "His struggle against the Empire" in Leia's hologram is the Rebellion. He doesn't need to prove that the Death Star exists, and there's no reason to believe that technical schematics would prove such a thing to anyone. Our heroes don't even believe it when they actually see it in ANH.
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Jul 11, 2018 21:32
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:You need to be careful. Alderaan is not the Rebellion. It’s a kingdom that is providing materiel support to the Rebellion because the king is struggling to maintain his sovereignty. I think this misreads too much to meet your own criteria of carefulness, but one particularly amusing consequence of accepting it would be that Vader is utterly wrong about Leia being a member of the Rebellion and too loyal to ever betray "consciously betray" it.
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Jul 11, 2018 21:53
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tadashi posted:This is false equivocation. The Empire version of human supremacy looks nothing like what you might call institutional racism in the Republic/Rebellion/Resistance. The Empire is still a series of planets, different cultures, connected by a galactic market and structurally this is much like the Republic - though more overtly authoritarian than the liberal democracy of the Republic. The military arm of the Empire is absolutely more uniformly ‘human’ but so was the Republic’s - which literally used clones as a slave army with parallels drawn between them and droids. That this military arm carried over when the Empire finally manifest isn’t surprising. The Empire as human supremacists line of critique simply doesn’t tackle how the ideology of racism undercuts both the Empire and the Republic.
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Jul 11, 2018 22:09
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Way too many people in this thread are using old Legends canon to make this this about Human racism/supremacy when thats not shown in the movies at all. Every time we see the Senate it's chock full of Aliens. We see various alien senators as part of both Palpatines inner-circle as well as his opponents. The Separatist leadership is composed of the Ultra-Priveleged wealthy CEO's of powerful corporations who have Alien leaders who are concerned with exploiting the defenseless, not racist policies. The blockade of Naboo is literally about a big corporation being so powerful it thinks it can use military power to force the government to stop taxing it. I have little doubt Nute Gunray would complain about how all taxation is theft and Naboo violated the NAP by standing in the way of his army of murder-robots.
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Jul 11, 2018 23:28
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Hodgepodge posted:I think this misreads too much to meet your own criteria of carefulness, but one particularly amusing consequence of accepting it would be that Vader is utterly wrong about Leia being a member of the Rebellion and too loyal to ever betray "consciously betray" it. Leia and her father are part of the Rebel Alliance. Alderaan is not. Alderaan was a peaceful planet whose struggle against Palpatine was waged in the realm of bureaucracy. Since Alderaan had no capacity to wage war, Leia and her father were personally using their resources as Senators to lend covert support to the Rebel forces. Alderaan didn’t have much of a military at all. Leia had to use a consular ship staffed with a her personal security as a makeshift battleship, which is why she stuck to doing covert missions under the pretence of Senate business. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Jul 12, 2018 |
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Jul 12, 2018 00:51
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https://twitter.com/profmusgrave/status/1017187880417013765
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Jul 12, 2018 00:51
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Everything before TLJ is a prequel now
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Jul 12, 2018 02:42
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Hbomberguy’s is a good troll. Also his name is locked inside my phones auto correct.
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Jul 12, 2018 02:52
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Bongo Bill posted:Not that you can tell from A New Hope, but I'm pretty sure Alderaan is ruled by a queen, and her husband, Senator Bail Organa, would technically be styled a Prince Consort. When I was a kid, for some reason I always thought 'Bail' was his title - and the prequels mentioning a 'Bail Antillies' just confirmed it for me. It's no worse than 'Moff' as a title, after all.
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Jul 12, 2018 05:02
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After my success not watching Solo, I think I'm almost ready to not watch Episode IX. At least I'll get to practice by not watching the trailer.
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Jul 12, 2018 05:23
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i remember hbomberguy posting here that he rly wanted to make a video about liking the prequels but was 2 scared about his audience's reception...the cowardice must be overcome
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Jul 12, 2018 09:20
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Hat Thoughts posted:i remember hbomberguy posting here that he rly wanted to make a video about liking the prequels but was 2 scared about his audience's reception...the cowardice must be overcome He should know where fear leads.
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Jul 12, 2018 09:30
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There’s a lot of confusion about Luke that stems from conflating and misreading his actions in Jedi with those in TLJ. While both can be characterized as defiant non-violent acts, neither are pacifist - both are inherently violent, but they are radically different. In ROTJ Luke learns from the ideological conflict between Vader and Yoda/Obi-Wan. When Luke’s finally brought before Palpatine his ultimate choice was to reject both the Jedi teachings and the Sith. He wasn't going to kill Vader in order to take his place as Palpatine's apprentice and he wasn't willing to kill Vader in order to satisfy the Jedi interpretation of The One. Luke radically and violently rejects this 'destiny' culminating in the suicidal act of throwing down his sword - taking responsibility for and deciding his own duty. This small miracle is what opens the space for Vader to attempt an end to this destructive conflict. Vader's last act in saving Luke is one where he presents a radical freedom. TLJ however shows that Luke decided to directly follow the steps of the Jedi and re-found the basis of the structure we see from the prequels. Where his relationship to Leia - sending Ben to become a Jedi - was to foster the close ties they once had to the Republic's political-power systems. Adding to that his death in TLJ, along with being a direct call to war, was a fundamental reversal of the Christian message in Vader's death - where God becomes man. Luke’s desire in TLJ was to attempt transcendence through The Force - a kind of synthesis whereby man becomes God. The importance of Vader as a new ethical subject is relevant as always, since it’s one of the more biting overarching satirical elements of the prequels.
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Jul 12, 2018 17:04
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Hat Thoughts posted:i remember hbomberguy posting here that he rly wanted to make a video about liking the prequels but was 2 scared about his audience's reception...the cowardice must be overcome I want to help him.
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Jul 12, 2018 17:26
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Hbomberguy is weird. He made a video defending Tim Buckley and I ended up agreeing with it 
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Jul 12, 2018 19:54
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:Hbomberguy is weird. He made a video defending Tim Buckley and I ended up agreeing with it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0ow4X8tiMI
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Jul 12, 2018 19:57
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:Hbomberguy is weird. He made a video defending Tim Buckley and I ended up agreeing with it His videos are good though I don't agree with his vidja game views.
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Jul 12, 2018 19:59
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Missed this earlier.homullus posted:My assertions are (1) systems are repeatedly shown to be only distantly affected by Republic/Empire, if at all (Tatooine, Cloud City, Canto Bight), (2) the Republic and Empire, while related themselves, are far from identical in their treatment of corporate representation, and therefore (3) enough time has passed in[between] Episodes that Rose's system's poverty cannot be laid at the feet of Leia's Republic. 1) All those locations are a part of the Republic/Empire. Tatooine is a planet of the Republic, abandoned to lawlessness because of its poverty - not the other way around. Cloud City is a tiny mining colony operating illegally on the Imperial world of Bespin. Canto Bight is one of the Republic’s luxury resort planets, similar to Naboo. 2) Republic organizations like the Techno Union and Banking Clan were precursors to the trade guilds operating under the Empire. Episode 5 refers to a Mining Guild that arch-libertarian Lando avoids because membership would involve regulation. 3) Rose’s system was under the New Republican jurisdiction for about the same amount of time, or longer than, it was under Imperial jurisdiction.
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Jul 12, 2018 20:46
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Missed this earlier. (1) Republic credits are no good on Tatooine and the Jedi feel they have no authority there in Episode I. The implication is that it is outside their jurisdiction, and their jurisdiction as guardians of peace and justice is "the Republic." (2) I don't think Cloud City-as-illegal-operation works, does it? The alternatives Lando implies are "deal with Empire, or deal with Mining Guild." This means the Mining Guild does not have representation in the Empire, or else they would be the same thing. Lando believes his deal for Luke will keep the Empire at bay; this also implies that Bespin/Cloud City is outside Republic/Empire jurisdiction. Were it within the Empire, the Empire wouldn't be making deals with Lando, since they are able to project force (ha?) wherever they want within their own space. Cloud City is independent of Empire and Mining Guild, until one of them decides it wants to take it. (3) Sure, but they're both long periods of time.
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Jul 12, 2018 21:21
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homullus posted:(1) Republic credits are no good on Tatooine and the Jedi feel they have no authority there in Episode I. The implication is that it is outside their jurisdiction, and their jurisdiction as guardians of peace and justice is "the Republic." 1) Quigon disguises himself because he is on a covert mission in an area openly controlled by organized crime, not because he is outside his jurisdiction. 2) A guild is not a type of country but a self-governing entity within a country. The use of the term in ESB implies an organization of companies within the Empire that was granted privileges by Palpatine in exchange for higher taxation or whatever.
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Jul 12, 2018 23:09
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Jul 13, 2018 18:42
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"SABER RAINE You sonofabitch!" "DIRK FURY, how ya doin!!?" "Eyyy am I late to this party!?" "CLOUD O'KNIVES, I thought you were dead!!" Harime Nui fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Jul 13, 2018 |
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Jul 13, 2018 18:56
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