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This derail comes up like every 20 pages, but I personally believe most RPG-style games should be addressed in a "this critical item/character is easily missable and it's gonna cause you headache later, X is a trap build, this mechanic is poorly explained so this is what you really want to do" style fashion. When you start writing a mini-walkthrough, it kind of misses the underlying point of the wiki - "what should I know before I play this game for the first time"
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Jul 11, 2018 03:06
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Disgaea really is about finding a system you want to break and breaking it. If you want to do all the super tryhard stuff you need to break multiple, but the game fully expects you to figure out how to break one system over your knee, even if that system is just how to grind efficiently. They're fun games, but they're very much autism simulators.
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Jul 11, 2018 03:06
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Zaodai posted:Disgaea really is about finding a system you want to break and breaking it. If you want to do all the super tryhard stuff you need to break multiple, but the game fully expects you to figure out how to break one system over your knee, even if that system is just how to grind efficiently. See? There, that's a good bulletpoint tip.
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Jul 11, 2018 03:14
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Some people play games to discover the mechanics and systems, and enjoy the process of doing so. They want to know about major traps and things that are never explained, but not optimization. Other people want to have a complete understanding of the mechanics at the outset so they can best engage with the challenges in the content. They want to know the optimal ways to build characters and so forth. As far as I can tell, BIP hasn’t taken an explicit position on it, but tends towards the former.
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Jul 11, 2018 03:19
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Subjunctive posted:Other people want to have a complete understanding of the mechanics at the outset so they can best engage with the challenges in the content. They want to know the optimal ways to build characters and so forth.
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Jul 11, 2018 03:23
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Subjunctive posted:Some people play games to discover the mechanics and systems, and enjoy the process of doing so. They want to know about major traps and things that are never explained, but not optimization. I recognize I'm just one goon, but I use the site a lot when starting new games, and I absolutely think it should be the former, if for no other reason than there's a shitload of other places where you can find in-depth guides. I think for stuff like Disgaea or other games with a lot of complex interlocking systems, it may be enough to say "this game has a lot of complex interlocking systems so look up a guide if you care". The more you pack into the page for a game, the less useful it becomes, IMO. Part of the problem is that the only people well-suited to judge what's "too much" to include on the page for a game are those who have already broken the game open at that level, so they're not ever going to be able to view it with fresh eyes. There's been at least one game where I've looked at the BIP page and not only felt overwhelmed by the amount of information on it, but also reconsidered even buying the game because I was sitting there thinking, jesus christ if I need to know all this before I play to not screw myself over, this game must be awful.
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Jul 11, 2018 03:27
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PMush Perfect posted:And this is why spoiler-free walkthroughs on GameFAQ exist. Sure, and I think linking to them from a basic explanation in BIP could work quite well.
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Jul 11, 2018 03:28
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"If you can't explain it simply, you don't really understand it" has never been more true.
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Jul 11, 2018 03:31
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MockingQuantum posted:but also reconsidered even buying the game because I was sitting there thinking, jesus christ if I need to know all this before I play to not screw myself over, this game must be awful. That's a really good point, yeah. I really dislike games where the only way to succeed is to juggle a complex series of mechanics and break it in half, I usually prefer to take the path of least resistance through my games, so if the wiki gives the impression of "here's 103 things you need to know before you start this game" it's not a great page (unless it's true, in which case it helpfully saved me some time by avoiding a game I won't like). So if tips like that are going to be included on a wiki, maybe break it out into a separate "here's how to break the game" section and leave the top for true first-time need-to-know stuff?
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Jul 11, 2018 03:32
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I'd say the things to make sure to include for any game are "can I screw myself over without realizing it" (the number of RPGs with points of no return before a savepoint and major boss is too numerous to count), "what doesn't the game tell me that I'm expected to know" (any Platinum brawler that puts block in the shop with an innocuous-sounding name) and a general "how do I approach this" if the game doesn't necessarily convey it well (such as "you're expected to screw up and try to recover from mistakes, bring spares" for XCOM or "there's a bunch of parts to get lost in but you can start out just punching penguins and get into that later" for Disgaea)
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Jul 11, 2018 03:57
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I'm not here to sell games. I'm here to tell you what you need to know before playing Farcry 5.
And I type words on my phone as a public service.
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Jul 11, 2018 04:07
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KirbyKhan posted:I'm not here to sell games. I'm here to tell you what you need to know before playing Farcry 5. You forgot one other thing:
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Jul 11, 2018 05:20
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Philisophically, Ive had a better time with the game realizing it is all for naught. Makes the fishing minigame and the Clutch Nixon that much sweeter.
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Jul 11, 2018 05:29
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1redflag posted:When you start writing a mini-walkthrough, it kind of misses the underlying point of the wiki - "what should I know before I play this game for the first time" This is something I worry about - I don't think Before I Play should become a GameFAQs competitor. It should, at most, compete with GameFAQs "Question and Answers" section. But you don't know what questions to ask. The Disgaea page, I think, is one of the worst offenders, especially because it doesn't use bullet points for many of the sections. I think once you get into the territory of using paragraphs to explain something, a walkthrough is better suited. If Disgaea really is "all or nothing" in terms of what you need to know, then I suggest the Disgaea page be a single tip linking to a good walkthrough/guide to its mechanics.
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Jul 11, 2018 08:40
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I tend to sort tips by priority order so I'd probably make some kinda "Advanced" or "Post-Game" section at the end if it's a critical part of the game. That said Overminty's tips at least are all fairly basic stuff, some games simply have more stuff to know in them than others. The rest of the existing Disgaea page, eh, I think most of it can go.
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Jul 11, 2018 09:00
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Kanfy posted:I tend to sort tips by priority order so I'd probably make some kinda "Advanced" or "Post-Game" section at the end if it's a critical part of the game. There are dozens of websites out there with detailed guides for things like this; anyone can Google those. Leave Before I Play for what it is.
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Jul 11, 2018 11:52
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Zushio posted:Added a little about that, and a mention about the super radioactive water. Your guide is good, but is more full walkthrough level of content than beginning tips. I'd rather leave most of the game a suprise, but CS in particular has some weird rear end things to it. I'm also a big fan of SRP as vanilla as possible.
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Jul 11, 2018 11:59
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Sandwich Anarchist posted:There are dozens of websites out there with detailed guides for things like this; anyone can Google those. Leave Before I Play for what it is. You can Google them, but it can be hard to tell which ones are any good. I think linking to a known-good "deep guide" or two could be quite helpful.
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Jul 11, 2018 14:08
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The only Disgaea bullet you need and it works for all he games is “this game has dozens of different progression systems. To beat the game you wont be expected to master any of them, or even use most of them after the tutorial introducing them. The post game, which is vast, absolutely does, but there are no gotchas, traps, or permanent mistakes you can make involving these systems, even if you dont really understand them starting out.”
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Jul 11, 2018 15:08
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Since I'm nearly finished with it, here's a few for Dungeons 3: This game is very much in the style of Dungeon Keeper or Evil Genius, so planning your base to include hallways is a must. Rooms cannot touch and are less efficient if they aren't enclosed by walls and a door. Multiple doors is perfectly fine. Invading Heroes will head straight for your Dungeon Heart, stopping to wreck poo poo on the way. You can quite easily make a circuitous path that will heavily delay them, like most tower defense style games. Traps work extremely well, to the point where you won't need defenders at all, but will wear down over time and must be replaced. Orcs and Goblins are the only units that can build them. Eventually you will get access to a Graveyard, Prison, and Guard Room. You can throw defeated Heroes into the Graveyard or Prison to turn them into Zombies or Skeletal Archers, respectively. Both of these units are best suited to guard duty, as they're sorta lovely on the overworld, but as undead, they auto resurrect if they die. Every map has at least one Diamond node in it. This is an infinite resource for money. If you just want to play around and make the fanciest dungeon possible, you can. Titan units don't take up space in your unit limit. Titans also require a 4x4 space for their bunk. A few room types work well next to each other. Workshop, Tinkerer's Cave, Arcanium, Chamber of Relaxation, and Sinister Laboratory. Those rooms make and use the same resources in some combination, so the less time your Little Snots have to run around, the better. Similarly, putting the Prison as close to where Heroes tend to die is ideal, as the Little Snots spend less time dragging them in it. Conversely, the Lecture Hall can be in the rear end end of your dungeon, as there are no resources required and no workers needed in it. Save prime real estate for something useful. F2 picks up every combat unit in your dungeon. Holding down right mouse will drop them all at once. Holding down left mouse when casting a spell will charge it up to increase the duration or power. Getting the Evil generating points on the overworld sooner rather than later is probably a good idea.
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Jul 11, 2018 16:28
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1redflag posted:This derail comes up like every 20 pages, but I personally believe most RPG-style games should be addressed in a "this critical item/character is easily missable and it's gonna cause you headache later, X is a trap build, this mechanic is poorly explained so this is what you really want to do" style fashion. When you start writing a mini-walkthrough, it kind of misses the underlying point of the wiki - "what should I know before I play this game for the first time" Agreeing with this. I would also add pointing out "don't bother doing x thing" can save people a lot of time and frustration (fishing in Nier). This whole thing is a gray area though. There was some tips in that FFT wiki which were removed that I found helpful and the page is just anemic now. To me something like this isn't useful: "Early battles, much like Deus Ex, will be boring! This is because your characters just can't do much other than use items and hit stuff. Hold out! As your characters start advancing in other jobs, the strategic options will open up." But pointing out what gear you should buy ASAP to avoid getting hosed during one of the duels seems more in-line with what I typically see on the wiki. 
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Jul 11, 2018 18:04
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 E. How do I know the poster below me is talking about Bloodborne 
Brother Tadger fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Jul 11, 2018 |
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Jul 11, 2018 18:07
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I feel the wiki is best when it lets me know either a) information about choices, especially permanent ones, I have to make in the game before I have a good grasp of it (i.e., is there an unpatched bug rendering one class completely non-viable and no-respec option) or b) a gameplay mechanic that is unique or semi-unique to the title it expects you to learn how to master from the beginning (i.e., parrying, which uses a unique to this game command to trigger, is the main defense not dodging or blocking)
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Jul 11, 2018 18:16
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Barudak posted:I feel the wiki is best when it lets me know either a) information about choices, especially permanent ones, I have to make in the game before I have a good grasp of it (i.e., is there an unpatched bug rendering one class completely non-viable and no-respec option) or b) a gameplay mechanic that is unique or semi-unique to the title it expects you to learn how to master from the beginning (i.e., parrying, which uses a unique to this game command to trigger, is the main defense not dodging or blocking) All this is right. I want "the riposte talent doesn't work", not "here is a character build".
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Jul 11, 2018 19:14
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Xander77 posted:As far as I can tell, you haven't actually published the Clear Sky tips. Possibly because you didn't insert the little "~game~" thing or whatever link is at the bottom of published entries that make the searchable. I don't have wiki access. Someone posted my CoP tips, but they are in the wrong spot on the wiki alphabetically. Old SoC tips are still up too.
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Jul 11, 2018 21:51
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im of the "assume the reader wants to experience the game for themselves for the most part" school
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Jul 11, 2018 22:08
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Because
Gynovore fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Jul 11, 2018 |
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Jul 11, 2018 22:48
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Yo, how do I not suck rear end at Witcher 2? I'm in Flotsam and I feel like every encounter is just destroying me. Whether I go to the ruined hospital (Wraiths), Krayan Mucus (Drowners), or the cave (tons of Nekkers), I just get overwhelmed. I'm level 7 and can't find any better armor or weapons than what I currently have (Cutlass, Witcher's Silver Sword, Blue Stripes Armor)
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Jul 13, 2018 00:00
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Capsaicin posted:Yo, how do I not suck rear end at Witcher 2? I'm in Flotsam and I feel like every encounter is just destroying me. Whether I go to the ruined hospital (Wraiths), Krayan Mucus (Drowners), or the cave (tons of Nekkers), I just get overwhelmed. I'm level 7 and can't find any better armor or weapons than what I currently have (Cutlass, Witcher's Silver Sword, Blue Stripes Armor) Stop trying to fight fair. Lay traps, hit and run, kite, use bombs and poo poo, never stop rolling. Fights, especially at the start, are very much you wearing them down while trying not to get hit. If all else fails, drop difficulty.
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Jul 13, 2018 03:12
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Yeah, I had a much much easier time with early combat when I started using literally every single tool I had in my inventory whenever possible. It gets easier when you level up a lil bit but for that first chapter at least spam bombs and traps and potions 24/7
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Jul 13, 2018 04:52
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Nemesis Of Moles posted:Yeah, I had a much much easier time with early combat when I started using literally every single tool I had in my inventory whenever possible. Lore wise, that's what Witchers are all about. They are totally outclassed (but much, much less so than a normal man), but have extensive knowledge of their prey and access to specialized tools. The Witcher 3 does a good job of expanding on this; on higher difficulties, you need to actually prepare for what you're going to hunt.
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Jul 13, 2018 05:19
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Capsaicin posted:Yo, how do I not suck rear end at Witcher 2? I'm in Flotsam and I feel like every encounter is just destroying me. Whether I go to the ruined hospital (Wraiths), Krayan Mucus (Drowners), or the cave (tons of Nekkers), I just get overwhelmed. I'm level 7 and can't find any better armor or weapons than what I currently have (Cutlass, Witcher's Silver Sword, Blue Stripes Armor) Me posted:* The game's combat system takes inspiration from Dark Souls and the like more than it does from conventional RPG's. That means you need to roll around. A lot. The moment I realized I could just let most guys swing, roll, then flank and shank them instead of slugging it out made combat SO much easier.
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Jul 13, 2018 07:39
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Capsaicin posted:Yo, how do I not suck rear end at Witcher 2? I'm in Flotsam and I feel like every encounter is just destroying me. Whether I go to the ruined hospital (Wraiths), Krayan Mucus (Drowners), or the cave (tons of Nekkers), I just get overwhelmed. I'm level 7 and can't find any better armor or weapons than what I currently have (Cutlass, Witcher's Silver Sword, Blue Stripes Armor) Don't get hit, that's the only reliable way to avoid damage in Witcher 2 - blocking will deplete your stamina quick, quen sign doesn't block all the damage, and rolling doesn't have invulnerability period just helps get out of attack range quick. Oh, and getting hit in the back massively increases damage, so never get surrounded, if there are many enemies try to bomb them, otherwise keep rolling away so they can't get behind you.
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Jul 13, 2018 08:06
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'This game takes inspiration from a game that came out six months later'. His points stand though. Don't fight fair, use the tools available to you. Sure you could just kill him with your sword but why do that when you can knock 'em on their back with Aard and just cut the poo poo out of them. I think I beat the final boss of the game with just an absolute poo poo ton of traps and a handful of actual attacks.
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Jul 13, 2018 16:08
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So I recently received a copy of Fire Emblem: Awakening and was told I had to play. I don't know the first thing about Fire Emblem omgwhatdoido?
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Jul 13, 2018 19:22
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Head Hit Keyboard posted:So I recently received a copy of Fire Emblem: Awakening and was told I had to play. I don't know the first thing about Fire Emblem omgwhatdoido? OP of thread has good info. Take Lyn as the first hero you're offered, the game even suggests as much. She's very good. There's a decent if cumbersome to use overview of which heroes are good and which aren't at https://feheroes.gamepedia.com/Tier_list
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Jul 13, 2018 19:45
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Head Hit Keyboard posted:So I recently received a copy of Fire Emblem: Awakening and was told I had to play. I don't know the first thing about Fire Emblem omgwhatdoido? --I can't remember if Awakening lets you turn permadeth off, and purists will get their torches if you do, but if you're the type to get paralyzed by the risk of bad decisions that option can take a lot of the stress off. Don't let anyone bully you into suffering if it's not your thing. --You can promote units any time after level 10 with the appropriate item, but it's better to level them up to 20 first. Levels are a limited resource, and you're trading the fixed stat gains of a promotion now for whatever you would have gotten in level-ups before promoting later. --Stat growths are random, with chance of gains dependent on character and class. Sometimes the character everyone raves about because they have good growths will roll nothing, sometimes the one that's considered a walking joke will become your God(dess) character. Play the characters you've got, not the hypothetical characters the internet assumes everyone gets. --FE games like to start you off with a pre-promoted character (referred to in fandom as a Jeigan/Oifey after the first characters to do this). They're something to fall back on in the early game, but don't gain much xp (xp is based on level difference, promotes are considered +20 levels higher). In this game it's Frederick, if I remember right. Try not to rely on him too much and feed xp to your other characters when you can, or they may fall behind the intended curve. --There's a lot of stuff with class changes and companion conversation buffs and kids, that's all minmax territory. You're not going to gameover 40 hours in because Chrom married the wrong waifu or you made your pegasus knight ride a wyvern instead. Go with your heart on those things. Bruceski fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Jul 13, 2018 |
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Jul 13, 2018 19:46
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pigdog posted:OP of thread has good info. Wrong Fire Emblem.
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Jul 13, 2018 19:47
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Alright, since I have some knowledge of the game I dived in and pruned, merged, reworded and rearranged the Disgaea page in an effort to make it both as conscise and helpful as I could manage. Should be easier to parse now with most of the key stuff still in.
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Jul 13, 2018 21:27
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For Witcher 2, does "human" in terms of equipment apply to elves/dwarves as well? Will my "Does more damage to humans" oil work when i'm fighting these loving waterfall elves? edit: also does the minimal not have a drat "north" marker? Capsaicin fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Jul 14, 2018 |
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Jul 14, 2018 16:03
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