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Appreciate the input; by now I've tried every kind of penetrating lube known to man on these things, heat/cold treated them, and tried hammering a torx into them before today's spectacular double extraction failure. Sadly, as the screws are aluminum, they aren't really too affected by temperature changes. Bonus: Since they're oxidized to hell and back, they're also so hard on the surface that no amount of hammering could get even a microscopically oversize torx bit in there. Snipping the bracket off with some pliers seems like a good idea; I could then get to the screw head with a file, and just carefully grind myself a nice flat notch for a screwdriver. I'd love it if I could take it to a shop, but I checked with the four closest ones before I went off to buy these extractors, and none of them felt up to the task. I think I'm starting to understand why...
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Jul 11, 2018 23:44
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| # ? Apr 25, 2024 00:51 |
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This thread is making me nervous as i've got to do four of these CIS injectors on an M102 this week...
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Jul 12, 2018 00:21
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If yours, unlike mine, have been cleaned, inspected, changed or even looked at in the past 25 years, I'm sure it'll be fine! 
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Jul 12, 2018 01:04
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Pursesnatcher posted:If yours, unlike mine, have been cleaned, inspected, changed or even looked at in the past 25 years, I'm sure it'll be fine! If they are, they'll be the first K-Jets in the history of the world to have been 
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Jul 12, 2018 14:13
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Can you cut the clips off and put a big vise grip on the remaining heads of the bolts? That’s how I’ve always been most successful getting really stuck bolts out.
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Jul 12, 2018 14:50
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Use ammonia to dissolve the aluminum?
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Jul 12, 2018 23:19
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If the head, case, and half the rest of the bits in there weren't aluminum as well, I'd start tossing all sorts of dissolving agents into the contraption. As it stands, the saga of getting screwed keeps continuing! Latest development is I bought a bunch of super-hardened impact screwdrivers, used them to chisel out some flathead slots, and started twisting using a wrench – but instead of loosening up, the screw heads themselves are beginning to yield. Starting to consider using my secret weapon, herr Wolframkarbid here, but let's hope it doesn't come to that...  I did learn that my radiator says "BEHR B 3" on it, so I guess you guys were right in it being Hella bad.  I also found the OVP relay! Good news is it's most certainly the old kind, prone to failure, and better off replaced.  Bad news is it was hiding in the passenger side footwell, behind the fuse box, along with Shub-Niggurath, The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young, in all her tentacled glory.  Still, swapping it out for the new one wasn't too hard.  More worrying is the terrible spaghetti monstrosity of wires, some of which are... well, I'll just show you.  You'll notice how the insulation on the wires going into that relay has cracked. It looked worse in real life, with copper clearly sticking out, and the chance of those two wires touching being enormous, I decided to go ahead and fix'er upp'er with a bit of electrical tape.  As it turns out, someone else has had this exact idea with this relay's sibling, albeit applying, I must say, slightly less finesse.  So yeah. Prolly nothing important, though. And that one wire that kinda looks like it belongs in the first relay, but is just hanging free... I have no idea where it goes. The second one I found, with the massive blob of tape on it, also has just four of the five connectors connected. Different ones, of course. This is what they both look like, part number and all.  
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Jul 14, 2018 18:37
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Given the DIY condition of those connectors and relays they were probably for some aftermarket spot lights or something.
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Jul 14, 2018 20:22
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DJT518T posted:Given the DIY condition of those connectors and relays they were probably for some aftermarket spot lights or something. That was my initial thought as well. If they are for something important there are ways to make better crimps. I bought some Chinese crimp tools that make the type of crimp the spade terminals come with from the factory for about $25. They’re ratcheting and have replaceable dies and are actually pretty nice. I think one from a “real” brand starts around $100 used but I can’t remember the name brand/generic trademark for the type of crimper. I know Dave Barton in Texas sells the spade lugs and a number of different plug casings as well that maybe would fit those relays if they need to be kept. I’m pretty sure he ships internationally and I’m also sure there are other sources for these parts. All of this only matters if the wiring goes to something important and is still actually on the car. Judging by the crummy condition of the insulation, though, I’m thinking more PO-installed fog lights or something. Volvo had problems in the 80s with wiring insulation crumbling when exposed to heat (which doesn’t seem to be a problem here) but by 1988 it was good again. I can’t imagine MB would have used wiring with anything but the finest of insulation by 1993. Good news is that those silver-cased Bosch relays are absolutely rock solid for the most part so only the dubious wiring to them is cause for concern.
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Jul 14, 2018 22:59
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berth ell pup posted:All of this only matters if the wiring goes to something important and is still actually on the car. Judging by the crummy condition of the insulation, though, I’m thinking more PO-installed fog lights or something. Volvo had problems in the 80s with wiring insulation crumbling when exposed to heat (which doesn’t seem to be a problem here) but by 1988 it was good again. I can’t imagine MB would have used wiring with anything but the finest of insulation by 1993. Not sure if  , but MB had big problems with this in the era in which this car was built.e: from the article: quote:The question is not one of IF they will fail but of WHEN – All vehicles manufactured in those years (at least ’91-’96) have the defective insulation and will fail sooner or later, thus you can understand Mercedes’ reluctance to own up to the problem:
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Jul 15, 2018 00:31
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Black88GTA posted:Not sure if Lovingly referred to as the "biodegradable wiring harness."
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Jul 15, 2018 00:48
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EVERYWHERE 
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Black88GTA posted:Not sure if Wow, no I really actually had no idea. The same term is used for Volvo harnesses of the 80s. That's what I get for assuming things I guess. Germans are really good at petrochemical and rubber and stuff so I figured they if anyone would have good wiring. Scratch what I said up there then!
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Jul 15, 2018 00:52
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Huh, imagine that. A couple of those pictures look a lot like the worst bits of my footwell monster up there. To make matters worse, this particular relay seems to have been used for a lot of different applications in various cars, from fuel pumps to aircon to fog lights. That one red+yellow wire hanging loose next to it runs all by its own in towards the center of the car, and then disappears in behind the covering in front of the center console; see the far left of this picture, it's very easy to spot. Could be it ends up in the ignition, the AC, a light switch, or just nowhere at all. It's unlikely that it goes into the engine, though, as there's a big thick loom heading that way at the top right of that picture. I'm thinking I should just try starting the car and see if it works, and leave the bastard disconnected if nothing seems off. As for the state of the rest of that compartment, I'm sort of lost for words.
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Jul 15, 2018 01:30
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My 1991 240 has one to operate the power unlocking and one to operate power locking, and some more for the windows too I think. They were and are still extremely prolific among European cars. It's a very standard, basic relay, SPDT I think is the right term. Which is also probably why there was no wire on that terminal: there is no need for the NC connection if you're using it to run a high-current accessory like lights etc. Look up the Bosch wiring codes if you're curious and match them to the terminal numbers, 86 is NC and 87 is NO or vice-versa. The only other I can remember is 1 is coil positive or something (you run the tach off that), there's a lot of them and they apply to all cars with old Bosch wiring systems (so, like, everything from Europe from 1960-1995 or so.) You won't hurt anything if you start the car I don't think. Worst case scenario is probably some electric accessory will fail to operate as intended. But given the crappy crimps it was probably for some long-ago-uninstalled accessory. e2: You'll also note that that wire isn't part of any sort of harness and just sort of goes on its own. It definitely doesn't look factory to me. berth ell pup fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Jul 15, 2018 |
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Jul 15, 2018 01:46
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If the wiring looks dodgy but seems to function correctly, I'd honestly just leave it be outside of replacing the OVP and what not. Seems like more harm can be done than good at that point.
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Jul 15, 2018 09:09
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Yeah, mercedes factory wiring doesn't look like that at all. All of those cheesy crimps, the vamp tap I spotted, and those relays just hanging out in free space; they're all aftermarket work. Could be for a central locking remote maybe? Anyway, my experience with old mercs and land rovers is: replace the OVP, gently close the panel up and don't shake the wires about too much! Get it working, then start ripping out the old crap once it's running OK!
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Jul 15, 2018 17:38
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Dear diary. Today I dropped my phone into the shroud between the radiator and the fan. Thankfully it was easy to spot, what with the flashlight on it set to max and all. Several hours later...  Gorilla Rod™ saves the day! Remember it, and one day it might save yours! All you need is a combination wrench and about a mile of gorilla tape, and you can fish drat near anything out of anywhere. Other than that, I tested out the "prolly not important" theory re: those loose wires, and it looks good? Reconnected battery, fired her up, and everything electrical I could think of seemed to still work. Ah, and the car actually started, so I haven't broken anything in the engine yet either. I won't get to check if the OVP swap worked magic until I take it out on the road, but idling seems pretty much the same, stable at around 800 rpm. Throttle response is way better after tightening that white plastic thingy going to the pedal, though! While doing some cleaning up in the engine compartment, trying to get rid of all the metal shavings from my thus-far-unsuccessful attempts at getting the drat screws out, I discovered they are slightly magnetic. Turns out the screws themselves are not aluminum at all, only the manifold they're stuck to is. I think they might be actually be galvanized steel.
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Jul 15, 2018 19:49
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Pursesnatcher posted:Dear diary. aha. that'll be why they're stuck tf then!
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Jul 15, 2018 23:38
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Suppose so. I also suppose learning to realize when you're beaten is part of the process, so I'm throwing in the towel when it comes to these screws. I've tried fluids, torx bits and flathead screwdrivers, and I've attacked the base of the screw heads with both chisel and dremel. Although it's just super odd that the first two came out... well, if not easily, then at least out, while the remaining six are as if they're welded to the manifold, at least I've accumulated a whole lot of new high quality tools! I'm sure they'll come in handy down the line. Well, not the chisel. drat things ate it right up. I've also exhausted my July mechanicin' budget on parts and tools, so things will quiet down a bit in here for a while. In a few weeks there'll be fresh funds, and I'll get around to finding a workshop to do three things. First they need to be willing to drill, burn or shoot these things out. Second, at the same time, I'll get the timing chains replaced – I quite honestly consider the risk of me tremendously messing things up to be too great to try it myself. Third, I'll get a full oil change, since I've got no legal means of disposing of that black stuff currently circulating in the engine. With those three things, plus a trip to a radiator shop who can take a look at my leak, I'm pretty sure my August budget will go as well. Still, six new injectors are prepped and ready to go if someone can just remove those screws, and I've got a full set of spark plugs that'll go in as soon as that's all in order! Spark plug change looks hard though, so feel free to place bets as to whether or not I'll manage to break something important  I also did this, in lieu of one of those connector things:  Will most likely remove it before trying out a test run, as the engine started acting kinda strange when it was plugged on. Oh, and I'm kinda confident it's a massive fire hazard. So yes! That's the current status, more will follow in probably like a month or so.
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Jul 17, 2018 19:46
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Pursesnatcher posted:Suppose so. I also suppose learning to realize when you're beaten is part of the process, so I'm throwing in the towel when it comes to these screws. I've tried fluids, torx bits and flathead screwdrivers, and I've attacked the base of the screw heads with both chisel and dremel. You can take used oil to the local auto parts store.
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Jul 17, 2018 20:23
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Pursesnatcher posted:Dear diary. yeah I was gonna say aluminum bolts are extremely weird and exotic, even for Mercedes. Time to get some Alum solution on a bitch.
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Jul 17, 2018 21:14
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builds character posted:You can take used oil to the local auto parts store. Not here, I've got to deliver it at a municipal hazardous waste disposal place – and they're only open while I'm at work :/
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Jul 17, 2018 22:14
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Hey man, where are you located?
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Jul 18, 2018 11:21
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bolind posted:Hey man, where are you located? Somewhere in scandahoovia last time I checked. Norway?
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Jul 18, 2018 14:22
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Quite right – to Norway, land of giants! Also hills. On that note, I took the G out for a spin today, to see if the OVP swap made any difference (or if I broke something). Some things have changed – it's got less issues getting up to speed or climbing hills, power-wise, or at least it seems that way. However, there are some bloody weird issues now as well. First off, idling is a lot rougher with a warm engine than it was before. It's also a tiny bit harder to start the car with a warm engine; like it'll cough a few times and sound like it's about to get going, and then just peter out. My money is on the six old injectors. Way more worrisome is the temperature gauge. See, today I ran it about 25 miles on highways, taking it real easy in case something wasn't right. That was fine, although the temperature kept at about 185 degrees F. Up until the end of my 2000+ mile test run, it's almost always been stuck at around 176 F no matter speed or RPM, so 185 while calmly cruising is higher than my comfort zone. It'd occasionally butt up against 194 degrees, which is still okay, but I don't like it. Anyway. After the highway, I pulled it onto a smaller road for about five miles, the last of these miles being a pretty long, steep, winding climb. When I got to the top, the temp gauge, for the first time since I got the car, was at 212 degrees F. Now I know that's not dangerous by itself, and that was the regular operating temperature for my SLK 250, but I still think it's still pretty hot for a car that's been keeping steady at 176 degrees previously. Especially after climbing a little less than a mile, going at 30 mph. So I cut the engine, popped the hood, and everything looked fine. No leak from the radiator, just the tiniest hint of coolant having escaped a hose; nothing at all like the previous horror pictures. Reservoir way full. Five minutes later, I turned the ignition to check temperature again, by which time it had crawled up to some 221 degrees (hood open, engine (and yes, fan too, off)). So what I did was close the hood, leave it for an hour and a half to cool off, and, uh, load up the back with 500 lbs of rock. (I was originally going to fetch 1200 lbs, but thought better of it) Starting it up again, temperature had dropped to about 170 F, and going back down the same way was pretty much sweet sailing. I think I was stable between 180-195 F all the way home. The main fan works, the heater inside the car heats, and everything looks pretty normal from the outside. Could it be a regulator somewhere? Something I did while hammering the screws? Some hose I've forgotten to reattach, a vacuum leak, or a side effect of a new OVP? In short: Does anyone have any ideas about why my car suddenly hates going uphill with a fiery passion?
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Jul 18, 2018 22:29
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Do these have a mechanical radiator fan? Sounds like your fan clutch is tired.
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Jul 19, 2018 00:13
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Pursesnatcher posted:Five minutes later, I turned the ignition to check temperature again, by which time it had crawled up to some 221 degrees (hood open, engine (and yes, fan too, off)). Congrats, you've just discovered heat soak. Once you've shut off the engine, it's normal for it to heat up a little bit, as the coolant is no longer circulating. Most people will never notice unless they check the temp ~5-10 minutes after shutting off the vehicle. Have you taken this same road (uphill) before in similar weather conditions? If so, then you might want to look at the thermostat and fan clutch. If not, it's normal for an engine to get a little warmer when going uphill - especially a big V8 in a heavy landbarge.
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Jul 19, 2018 00:31
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STR posted:Congrats, you've just discovered heat soak. Once you've shut off the engine, it's normal for it to heat up a little bit, as the coolant is no longer circulating. Most people will never notice unless they check the temp ~5-10 minutes after shutting off the vehicle. Hmm. The fact that it got hotter while off made me figure that cooling was working more or less as intended, since heat was being dealt with while pump and fan were going. Maybe not, then - time to read up on fan clutches! I haven't taken that particular road in this particular car before, but on my stupid long trip a couple of weeks back, I had to climb both longer and steeper inclines. I had power issues then, to the point where I'd have to pick up lots of speed before starting each hill or risk slowing down to a crawl, but temperature never rose this high.
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Jul 19, 2018 06:48
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No, it sounds like it probably is working as intended. There's no coolant flow with it off, so it's going to heat up a little immediately after shutdown. If the engine wasn't putting out as much power as it should, in theory, it probably wasn't dumping as much heat into the cooling system either. Either way, you're going to be replacing the radiator soon; good time to replace the fan clutch and thermostat.
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Jul 19, 2018 07:18
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Pursesnatcher posted:In short: Does anyone have any ideas about why my car suddenly hates going uphill with a fiery passion? Some mercedes engines of that era had problems with the plastic thermostat housing. Check yours, and replace it with the updated metal one if you like. If you have an electric fan clutch like mine, you can test it by pulling the cable to the sensor and bridging the contacts. With the engine off you should hear a nice loud click (and probably see sparks if you used a screwdriver!) when it engages.
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Jul 19, 2018 09:01
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Pursesnatcher posted:Quite right – to Norway, land of giants! Also hills.    Scandihoovians reprezent.Regarding used motor oil, just go to your nearest gas station and pick up a bunch of empty 5L plastic window washer fluid containers, put the oil in those, and then once every other year do a run to the recycling center. Fake edit: Norwegian crying flag bigger than the Danish one? What the heck? 
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Jul 19, 2018 09:35
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They paid for a bigger flag with their vast reserves of oil money.
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Jul 19, 2018 11:05
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We actually paid to make theirs smaller. Partly as payback for 400 years of Danish subjugation, but mostly for the fact that they make better beer than we do (a great and secret point of shame). But brother, how I envy the flatness of Denmark right now! meltie posted:Some mercedes engines of that era had problems with the plastic thermostat housing. Check yours, and replace it with the updated metal one if you like. Oh cool, I'll absolutely be checking this out. Internet wisdom tells me my high temps are indeed unusual for an M117 engine, while my "old" normal temps are the proper sweet spot, so I believe it's not just the OVP facilitating more power. Although, the service manual indicates some sort of double action breathing apparatus only kicking in at higher temps, so... There's research and experiments to do!
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Jul 19, 2018 11:47
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I like that thing. A guy I know has one of the newer fancy suburban mom-mobile mercedes box SUVs (g class?) and it does surprisingly well in the snow and mud. Looks like a bad pimp-mobile missing its rimz but its so ugly I kinda like it. Any interior pics? I'd be scared of an older mercedes for reliability reasons, but hey, its cool and its not like 80's jag reliability so rock on.
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Jul 19, 2018 17:11
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I'll get some shots from the inside, and maybe write up a little more on what makes this car weird? First I need to figure out what a smog pump is though. As it happens, I have one, but it's visibly very broken (pulley askew, bits sticking out, you know, broken). That's okay, because there's no trace of the belt which was supposed to be turning the thing, so it's not affecting... anything? I only found out because I'm putting together an order for new rubber, so I decided to find out what hoses need replacing, and so I started tracing the ones I could see around. Remember the little square air filter I replaced? The hose leading up to it originates way down under the alternator, in what I've learned is a smog pump. Or secondary air injection, if you prefer. Now from what I've gathered, roughly 50% of the internet agrees smog pumps are best when circumvented and removed. They steal performance, add weight, and take up space; all you get in return is some lower emissions. However, this one doesn't pump air into the catalyst (well, maybe it does that as well, idk), it pumps it into the air filter housing. There, it first passes through that weird square filter, then through the main air filter, and then into the manifold. So it's clean, but warm, recycled and maybe spent air, which Mercedes seems to have designed a system for reusing? Could this thing actually be configured to utilize this secondary air setup in order for it to run right, or is there something I'm not getting here?
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Jul 20, 2018 20:15
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It's to pump air into the exhaust system to help the catalyst during engine warmup. Modern cars sometimes have them in the form of an electric blower. If you have emissions testing, fix it. it'll eventually lead to a damaged catalyst fwiw. The pump itself is nothing fancy. Just a rotary vane pump with an electric clutch on the front. E: it'll run fine without it and should not cause drivability issues with it defunct. cursedshitbox fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Jul 20, 2018 |
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Jul 20, 2018 20:34
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Yeah, you're right. I realized I could look in the service manual, and turns out I got the airflow direction all wrong. The pump sucks in air through that square filter, and spits it out at the exhaust valves. I also need to worry less. According to the service manual, the thermostat doesn't engage at all before I pass 176 degrees F; coolant only flows through the bypass duct until then. Between 176-203 degrees F, the thermostat is more or less open depending on engine load and ambient temperature. Only above 203 F is the main valve completely open to let coolant flow fully through the system. On top of that, the viscofan clutch doesn't engage at all until temperatures reach 221 deg F; so the fan just spins at 400-600 rpm, independent of engine speed. Once coolant temperature reaches that threshold, a bimetallic strip will arch outward, engaging the clutch, and spinning the fan proportionate to engine speed, up to a fan speed of 3000 rpm. Soooo basically the thermostat wasn't fully opened before I started worrying, and the fan clutch wasn't designed to engage at all until a temperature above my personal "oh poo poo too hot better just stop" limit. Of course, for testing it, the manual recommends running the engine at 4500 rpm until it gets into that temperature range, and while driving I never went above 2500 rpm, so I'm pretty sure something is still up. Doesn't look like I need to worry much out on the road before the needle approaches the red, which is at 250 degrees F and above.
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Jul 20, 2018 21:08
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I'm impressed to learn Norway doesn't have the all-consuming rust concerns Atlantic Canada has?
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Jul 20, 2018 21:21
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Nebakenezzer posted:I'm impressed to learn Norway doesn't have the all-consuming rust concerns Atlantic Canada has? Oh, but we most certainly do! Roughly six months per year we're rolling around on roads that are 90 percent salt, ten percent water. That's why the very first thing I did, immediately after picking up the car, was call a shop who could do this:  That yellow gunk dripping off everything is lanolin; I had the whole darn thing coated extensively both underneath and in every conceivable opening. It's also received regular Tectyl treatments throughout the years, so there's remarkably little rust on this vehicle. Only the exhaust looks like it's really gotten any bad rust, so I'm soooort of considering yanking it all out and installing some new stainless plumbing.
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Jul 20, 2018 22:02
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| # ? Apr 25, 2024 00:51 |
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I mean, you certainly don't WANT the engine to sit at 220-230F all day, but a trip up there now and then during heavy use is normal and expected. So long as it's sitting below 220ish most of the time, you're generally okay (I prefer below 205 during regular driving personally, but during heat waves like we've had lately where I'm at, I've personally been seeing 210-220 once I get off the highway). But get that radiator replaced. If it can't hold pressure, the coolant will boil a lot easier in the hottest parts of the engine (this is bad).
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Jul 21, 2018 07:35
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