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Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009

📈📊🍪😋



Also it would be one thing if the leading man left because of a contract dispute or getting disgraced in Hollywood or something like that. But O'Hare's problem was literally "There is a hole in your mind" :psyduck:

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skooma512
Feb 8, 2012

You couldn't grok my race car, but you dug the roadside blur.

Pick posted:

It's surprising in the sense that what JMS did was totally above and beyond what anyone had ever done with respect to planning a long TV story with like infinite contingency plans.

compare to say, the lies of the new battlestar galactica

It really does boggle the mind that these creative types intend to tell a narrative.... but fly totally by the seat of their pants episode to episode and end up painting themselves into corners.

Pick
Jul 19, 2009
Nap Ghost

skooma512 posted:

It really does boggle the mind that these creative types intend to tell a narrative.... but fly totally by the seat of their pants episode to episode and end up painting themselves into corners.

There's a balance to be struck. You do want to be adaptable, because parts of a story might not end up working as well as you hope, and being able to pivot can be necessary. However, depending on the story you're telling, you really do need to have a sense of plot and pacing in advance.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

skooma512 posted:

It really does boggle the mind that these creative types intend to tell a narrative.... but fly totally by the seat of their pants episode to episode and end up painting themselves into corners.

It's one thing to know where you're going, another to know how you're going to get there. And the more developed your characters are, the more likely it is to change your route - sometimes you tell the story, other times the story tells you.

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

this is me posting irl

Neddy Seagoon posted:

BSG's failure wasn't entirely the fault of Ron Moore and co. They got hit hard by the writer's strike and just never recovered.

Yeah, but at the same time I think there's a difference between "we made a few mistakes along the way" and "we just stuck 'And They Have A PLAN' in the title cards for funsies"

Clouseau
Aug 3, 2003

My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie.
I think the seat of your pants thing works because you can't expect television production to be predictable - even with cast changes and his back up plans, if B5 was canceled in season two (like Sense8) there'd be no real satisfying way to wrap it up without having a tv movie that just speeds through plot.

BSG was screwed by the writers strike - though I think that if they were cancelled from the strike the last episode they shot (the first episode of 4.5, where everything truly goes to poo poo for everyone) would have worked as a particularly dire series finale. To my understanding, they were headed towards a very different 4.5 if the strike didn't happen, and they second-guessed and went in a completely different direction after they returned. Who knows if the first plan was better.

I say all this as someone that is fine with how BSG ended though.

Issaries
Sep 15, 2008

"Negotiations were going well. They were very impressed by my hat." -Issaries the Concilliator"

Clouseau posted:

I think the seat of your pants thing works because you can't expect television production to be predictable - even with cast changes and his back up plans, if B5 was canceled in season two (like Sense8) there'd be no real satisfying way to wrap it up without having a tv movie that just speeds through plot.

Every season of B5 had a nice ending, that would have worked as series finale:

Season 1: All gone to poo poo. (Shame there wasn't more seasons)
Season 2: All still poo poo, there's some hope. (Shame there wasn't more seasons)
Season 3: Sacrifice at Zhadum (World saved. the end)
Season 4: Sleep in light + Conflicts end (Best spot to end series, IMHO)

McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005






For the longest time I was convinced that "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars" was intentionally written as a potential series finale in case the show wasn't picked up for season 5, it's such a perfect capstone to the whole saga while leaving the particulars of the immediate postwar plot open to speculation.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012
Was anyone aware of O'Hare's schizophrenia before JMS revealed it a few years ago after O'Hare died? As frequently as it's mentioned there was never any criticism or disregard for his performance and exit and everyone I feel that everyone just assumed there was "creative differences" and things ended up working out.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

McSpanky posted:

For the longest time I was convinced that "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars" was intentionally written as a potential series finale in case the show wasn't picked up for season 5, it's such a perfect capstone to the whole saga while leaving the particulars of the immediate postwar plot open to speculation.

It's a weird one. But no, DoFS is 5X01. Sleeping in Light was made as 4X22 then held back a full year when they got picked up.

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'

pentyne posted:

Was anyone aware of O'Hare's schizophrenia before JMS revealed it a few years ago after O'Hare died? As frequently as it's mentioned there was never any criticism or disregard for his performance and exit and everyone I feel that everyone just assumed there was "creative differences" and things ended up working out.

AFAIK, the only people who knew were the people in the room with O'Hare and JMS when O'Hare decided he had to stop. I think it was those two and one other. Doug Netter, maybe?

bartolimu
Nov 25, 2002


I distinctly remember reading a few media pieces when O'Hare exited saying things like "replacing the wooden Michael O'Hare" with Boxleitner was a very positive thing for the series overall. It was like they thought O'Hare's acting was the thing that would tip B5 over to cancellation if he stayed. Part of that was probably trying to hand-wave away a thing they couldn't explain otherwise, but there were definitely people who disliked O'Hare's acting and thought That Guy From Scarecrow And Mrs. King was a major improvement. (Fun fact: Boxleitner was in 89 episodes of Scarecrow and Mrs. King and 88 eps of B5, so he's still That Guy From Scarecrow and Mrs. King if you go by volume.)

So yeah, there were definitely O'Hare detractors who were glad to see him go. But I think most fans still had PTSD from Laurel Takashima and didn't really notice the uneven bits of his performances. That, and was playing a character with significant trauma, so a distanced performance played better than it might have with a Sheridan style character.

Milkfred E. Moore posted:

AFAIK, the only people who knew were the people in the room with O'Hare and JMS when O'Hare decided he had to stop. I think it was those two and one other. Doug Netter, maybe?

I didn't remember anyone else being in the room when O'Hare and JMS had their talk, but nobody said a word until after O'Hare had passed on. The rest of the cast had no idea during the series, though I'm fairly sure JMS let them know well before revealing it to the fans at ComicCon.

bartolimu fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Aug 5, 2018

Timby
Dec 23, 2006

Your mother!

pentyne posted:

Was anyone aware of O'Hare's schizophrenia before JMS revealed it a few years ago after O'Hare died? As frequently as it's mentioned there was never any criticism or disregard for his performance and exit and everyone I feel that everyone just assumed there was "creative differences" and things ended up working out.

The news reports at the time suggested that PTEN told Straczynski to change the lead actor or else the show would be canceled. At the time, he obfuscated, saying that it was always part of the plan to move Sinclair to a background role and introduce a new "soldier" commander of the station (which everyone with half a brain could see was PR spin).

I don't know when he told the cast, though; in Jerry Doyle's extensive interview with Kenneth Plume (which was around ... 2002-ish, I think), Doyle simply said that O'Hare was a very intense guy and not always the easiest to work with, and insisted that O'Hare had been fired. Granted, Doyle and reality weren't always exactly on the same page.

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?


skooma512 posted:

It really does boggle the mind that these creative types intend to tell a narrative.... but fly totally by the seat of their pants episode to episode and end up painting themselves into corners.

This is how literally all writing works. You don't see it in books because you can edit, but TV doesn't have that luxury. JMS having ten years to noodle on his ideas before he could get his show on the air was a very unusual situation. A good one, but abnormal. And even then, B5 is quite different from what he planned.

Even the most dedicated outliners change their stories a lot in editing. TV is terrifying without that ability.

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'

Grand Fromage posted:

And even then, B5 is quite different from what he planned.

And better for it, IMO.

Timby
Dec 23, 2006

Your mother!

Milkfred E. Moore posted:

And better for it, IMO.

Very much so; I borrowed the script books from a friend of mine last year, and, yeesh, that original plan / outline was a goddamn mess.

Don't get me wrong, B5 is still a shameless ripoff of Lord of the Rings (and I don't believe Straczynski for a second when he says things like he'd never seen an episode of Homicide when talking about the editing of Sheridan's interrogation), but the real-life circumstances made it a better show.

Except for O'Hare's departure. God drat do I hate Bruce Boxleitner.

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'

Timby posted:

Don't get me wrong, B5 is still a shameless ripoff of Lord of the Rings (and I don't believe Straczynski for a second when he says things like he'd never seen an episode of Homicide when talking about the editing of Sheridan's interrogation), but the real-life circumstances made it a better show.

I've always been of the mind that the creator of a work is the last person you should believe when it comes to anything said about it. That's not to call a JMS (Or Lucas or whoever else) a liar but they're always going to present their work in the best possible light. JMS is one of the more notorious for that sort of 'understandable chicanery,' IMO. He can't exactly come out and say, hey, Sinclair was kind of pivotal to my whole plot and now everything's kind of messed up.

We like our stories to emerge fully-formed from the godhead, after all.

Timby posted:

God drat do I hate Bruce Boxleitner.

What is this heresy?

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

bartolimu posted:

(Fun fact: Boxleitner was in 89 episodes of Scarecrow and Mrs. King and 88 eps of B5, so he's still That Guy From Scarecrow and Mrs. King if you go by volume.)

Boxleitner was also in three B5 TV movies and The Lost Tales, so he's not That Guy by volume. :colbert:

Winifred Madgers
Feb 12, 2002

Timby posted:

Except for O'Hare's departure. God drat do I hate Bruce Boxleitner.

I can understand preferring O'Hare, but... huh?

Timby
Dec 23, 2006

Your mother!

turn left hillary!! noo posted:

I can understand preferring O'Hare, but... huh?

Boxleitner is a one-note actor who, in a show filled with low-rent actors, somehow stood out as being the worst. I mean, poo poo, he made Scoggins look competent. I get that people love lines like "NOW GET THE HELL OUT OF OUR GALAXY!" but he delivers them with a level of cheese that would make the entire state of Wisconsin go, "Wait, God drat."

And I've said it before, but if you want to get yourself into an alcoholic coma / develop acute liver failure, take a shot every time he says, "No ... nonononono." Holy gently caress.

Pick
Jul 19, 2009
Nap Ghost
Babylon 5 is taped stage theater. If you’re OK with that tone, then it’s no problem.

Pick
Jul 19, 2009
Nap Ghost
I mean, I have heard people make the same claims about Mira Furlan and in that case I nearly flip

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?


I only remember the nonono line once in the series. My liver can take it.

I said come in!
Jun 22, 2004

Timby posted:

God drat do I hate Bruce Boxleitner.

How dare you.

Maera Sior
Jan 5, 2012

Timby posted:

Boxleitner is a one-note actor who, in a show filled with low-rent actors, somehow stood out as being the worst. I mean, poo poo, he made Scoggins look competent. I get that people love lines like "NOW GET THE HELL OUT OF OUR GALAXY!" but he delivers them with a level of cheese that would make the entire state of Wisconsin go, "Wait, God drat."

And I've said it before, but if you want to get yourself into an alcoholic coma / develop acute liver failure, take a shot every time he says, "No ... nonononono." Holy gently caress.

He's pretty one-note, but I'm not sure he's the worst. Garibaldi might be my pick.

Panzeh
Nov 27, 2006

"..The high ground"

Pick posted:

I mean, I have heard people make the same claims about Mira Furlan and in that case I nearly flip

Boxleitner, Doyle, and Furlan all put in weak performances on B5, some of the latter might come down to her writing, but I was never really impressed with those characters' moments.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

Panzeh posted:

Boxleitner, Doyle, and Furlan all put in weak performances on B5, some of the latter might come down to her writing, but I was never really impressed with those characters' moments.

Furlan had only just escaped from the breakup of Yugoslavia. I'm inclined to give her benefit of the doubt for having a strong accent. And Doyle was surprisingly good considering he'd been working as a stockbroker and his acting CV amounted to two walk-on guest appearances and a single two-episode gig.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

I feel like Babylon 5 really perfectly bridges the old-fashioned sci fi with new sci fi, and the seams really show.

Old sci fi was all about cheesy pontificating on the nature of abstract concepts that only half made sense, and weird gimmicky alien civilizations that were often undone by their own hubris. The idea of aliens on like a higher plane of existence or what have you is also a more old fashioned sci fi kinda thing.

And then modern sci fi is all about a more down-to-earth pragmatic approach to things, where instead of being merely third-party observers, humanity is directly involved and the viewer is supposed to be emotionally invested in the drama, while setting details aren't just one-episode features or recurring guest roles, but ongoing worldbuilding that sticks around.

So you have these actors who kinda talk like they're from the 50s while going about these dramatic issues because they're rapidly switching between drama, stilted philosophy, and lighthearted comedy. You have these ongoing wars that end in a bizarre hegelian dialogue on chaos vs order and an ancient alien who takes a weird patriarchal role towards all sentient life in the galaxy. There's this menagerie of aliens who occasionally have weird gimmicks to be introspective towards human nature, but they stick around forever (unless they're a praying mantis), and you have the brilliant Narn/Centauri situation.

It makes B5 seem chintzy and cheesy at times, but it also gives a feeling of depth and expansiveness that modern sci fi tends to lack from its tighter focus and insistence on being serious most of the time.

Pick
Jul 19, 2009
Nap Ghost
I am so tired of apologizing for stuff in life, Babylon 5 is awesome and it's rad. It's really good, & I am proud to like it. Or at least totally at peace with liking it.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

SlothfulCobra posted:

There's this menagerie of aliens who occasionally have weird gimmicks to be introspective towards human nature, but they stick around forever (unless they're a praying mantis)

Or G'Kar's aide.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

"Hi Everybody!"

Jedit posted:

Or G'Kar's aide.

Hey, they found her eventually :v:.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

Neddy Seagoon posted:

Hey, they found her eventually :v:.

No, she had an airlock accident.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

"Hi Everybody!"

Jedit posted:

No, she had an airlock accident.

Nope. Na'Toth turns up in season 5, having spent the past few years forgotten in the cells of the Centauri Royal Palace.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

Neddy Seagoon posted:

Nope. Na'Toth turns up in season 5, having spent the past few years forgotten in the cells of the Centauri Royal Palace.

Look at this man, shamefully forgetting Ko'Dath.

Narsham
Jun 5, 2008

Jedit posted:

Furlan had only just escaped from the breakup of Yugoslavia. I'm inclined to give her benefit of the doubt for having a strong accent. And Doyle was surprisingly good considering he'd been working as a stockbroker and his acting CV amounted to two walk-on guest appearances and a single two-episode gig.

Doyle was practically cast as himself, which helps a bit, though I wouldn't want to strip him of credit for his performance. He (and all of the main cast) make some really good acting choices, but only a few of the performers are extremely consistent across the show's five years. Even the best actors aren't convincing at every moment; movie actors get help in the sense that they have more takes and fewer hours on-screen.

Honestly, after watching the "behind the scenes" footage of some of the rehearsal process, it's really telling the differences in acting and performance style between most of the human main-cast versus the aliens. Boxleitner, Doyle, and Christian drop character instantly when a scene is cut and they're constantly joking and laughing and conversing between set-ups. IIRC, we see a little footage of a scene with Furlan, and she stays mostly aloof and in-character. On the far end of the scale, stylistically, is Katsulas, who basically stayed in character for the whole shoot.

B5 cast seem to get more heat for their performances with less nuance to the criticisms than the cast of several of the other big genre shows (Star Trek, BSG), and only rarely do the critics provide specifics that indicate they have any training in performance. Whenever a conversation starts along these lines, I am always quick to remind that directors have a great deal to do with the quality of performances that they get, whether it's by contradicting good choices (see Jurasik's story about getting JMS to intervene with a director in a scene with Cartagia where the director insisted he play it wrongly) or providing no guidance or feedback and moving on to the next take.

Sometimes, infamously bad performances turn out to be down to the writing and direction. The most famous example that springs to mind is the "No, not the mind probe" line in The Five Doctors. At least one of DVD versions of that story has alternate takes of that scene, and you can compare between two takes they didn't use and the terrible line delivery we got on-screen. Both of the other takes on that line were better, not that it's easy to imagine any performer making it work in the context.

The other problem in assessing performances is that sometimes the hardest acting jobs draw no attention at all if done successfully. Not everything can be "To be, or not to be." My favorite B5 example is the elevator scene in Thirdspace, where Jeff Conaway learned the whole scene at speed and delivered it in one take. That's not to take away from the obviously superlative acting also seen on the show, whether in the other elevator scene, or Choate's Zathras. It's just that viewers are more likely to be impressed with Choate's performance than with Forward's performance as Refa or with London's minister/regent.

Pick
Jul 19, 2009
Nap Ghost
Silly narsham, don't you know that good acting is glumly looking away from camera and mumbling?

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk









Timby posted:

Boxleitner is a one-note actor who, in a show filled with low-rent actors, somehow stood out as being the worst. I mean, poo poo, he made Scoggins look competent. I get that people love lines like "NOW GET THE HELL OUT OF OUR GALAXY!" but he delivers them with a level of cheese that would make the entire state of Wisconsin go, "Wait, God drat."

And I've said it before, but if you want to get yourself into an alcoholic coma / develop acute liver failure, take a shot every time he says, "No ... nonononono." Holy gently caress.

Yeah he has his moments but he's a fine block of teak in a uniform most of the time.

Winifred Madgers
Feb 12, 2002

Pick posted:

I am so tired of apologizing for stuff in life, Babylon 5 is awesome and it's rad. It's really good, & I am proud to like it. Or at least totally at peace with liking it.

I've never apologized for it in my life. I might make a caveat for the potential viewer about the way it's solidly rooted in the '90s, and set expectations about the style of acting and whatever. But it's unironically my favorite show of all time and I don't foresee it being surpassed.

Pick
Jul 19, 2009
Nap Ghost

turn left hillary!! noo posted:

I've never apologized for it in my life. I might make a caveat for the potential viewer about the way it's solidly rooted in the '90s, and set expectations about the style of acting and whatever. But it's unironically my favorite show of all time and I don't foresee it being surpassed.

Extremely same.

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SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

The acting seems stilted at times, but it's hard to tell how much of that is writing and directing as well as the actor's fault. Hell, there's even a degree of generational separation where the medium of television has changed a lot since then (while it was harkening very strongly towards 60s and 70s shows as well).

The top of my issues with Boxleitner is his pronunciation of the word "bear". Even now, it haunts me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oStG9DI0q3g

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