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Norm Peterson is the best Cheers character and I will not hear otherwise.
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Aug 12, 2018 04:04
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Doesn't sexual abuse essentially pay forward, where those abused are more likely to consider abuse normal, and therefore perpetuate it? This is not true. Abusers are more likely to have been abused than a randomly selected person, but being abused does not correlate significantly with being an abuser. There are multiple other factors at play with someone becoming an abuser. As far as consent goes, the strongest factor is living in a culture with a poor understanding of consent and bodily autonomy or emotional intelligence (like America in the 80s).
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Aug 12, 2018 04:07
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business hammocks posted:This is not true. Abusers are more likely to have been abused than a randomly selected person, but being abused does not correlate significantly with being an abuser. There are multiple other factors at play with someone becoming an abuser. That's fair.
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Aug 12, 2018 04:15
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Absurd Alhazred posted:That's fair. I did not mean for that to come out so harshly. It’s something that was believed for a long time but has been revised from years of work counseling victims.
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Aug 12, 2018 04:45
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business hammocks posted:I did not mean for that to come out so harshly. It’s something that was believed for a long time but has been revised from years of work counseling victims. Don't sweat it, if it's a misconception then it deserves to be harshly rebutted.
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Aug 12, 2018 05:01
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Yeah, Sam needing his consent to be enthusiastic kinda makes him the opposite of a creep in my book
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Aug 12, 2018 15:38
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Choco1980 posted:Yeah, Sam needing his consent to be enthusiastic kinda makes him the opposite of a creep in my book He needs resistance to be enthusiastic.
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Aug 12, 2018 16:22
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So it's a coincidence that abusers are more likely to have been abused?
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Aug 12, 2018 18:25
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Araenna posted:So it's a coincidence that abusers are more likely to have been abused? Iirc abusers are more likely to have been abused but the majority of abuse victims are not likely to actually abuse others if that makes sense
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Aug 12, 2018 20:18
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Araenna posted:So it's a coincidence that abusers are more likely to have been abused? Abusers are more likely to have been abused but the correlation isn't strong enough to say it's the cause. This isn't on the level of like "80% of people who were abused go on to abuse somebody else." Childhood trauma in particular tends to cause cluster b personality disorders which can make people become dangerous but they also don't guarantee it. It's way more likely for abuse to turn a person into a very damaged person and/or a self-destructive person than an abuser.
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Aug 12, 2018 20:23
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Araenna posted:So it's a coincidence that abusers are more likely to have been abused? Keep in mind that there are vastly more victims than abusers, by like at least an order of magnitude. Think of it like that folk story about a lot of serial killers getting concussed between the ages of 8 and 11 or whatever. Even if it were true, its explanatory potential is severely limited by the fact that many, many people have the same thing happen to them and don’t become serial killers. It’s a weak correlation that doesn’t really help figure anything out. Also, abusers are more likely than an average person to lie for sympathy or attention.
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Aug 12, 2018 20:41
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Plus, there a huge number of factors that contribute to whether somebody is likely to abuse somebody; like cultural background, access to education, access to mental-health resources, the amount of support from family/friends, level of self-awareness, tendency towards addictive habits, and possibly genetics. To put it on one single thing is stupid; and to act as if victims of abuse are going to be abusers themselves is both disgustingly abhorrent and dangerous. Like ToxicSlurpee said, abuse almost always creates broken individuals, and some broken individuals have the dominoes set up to create abuse; but not all victims of abuse are going to have the same triggers. If you want to talk about real "coincidences" PTSD has higher levels of correlation than abusive behavior. Fake Edit: Been re-watching Venture Bros due to the new season; and on a whole the show has aged great and the earlier seasons are still just as exciting due to the call-backs that are woven into the later seasons. But like a lot of mid-2000's humor there are a few bits of writing that are cringe-inducing, like the number of gags/plot-points where characters being trans is the punchline.
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Aug 12, 2018 20:50
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business hammocks posted:Keep in mind that there are vastly more victims than abusers, by like at least an order of magnitude. Yeah, a lot of it is trying to explain things that don't make a lot of sense or find That One Thing we can look for to say "this person will do X, watch them/preemptively lock them up." Serial killers in particular just genuinely make no sense but we want to make sense of it. It would be useful to find out what causes monsters to make it easier to prevent the damage they cause but that just isn't possible. A perfect example is, well, people with certain personality disorders. Narcissism, sociopathy, and psychopathy in particular can cause people to do horrible things but believe it or not most people with any of those function in normal society and never do anything jail-worthy. It's easy to say "keep a close eye on sociopaths as they do terrible things" but believe it or not most of them won't. In the case of abuse victims tend to blame themselves more than they blame the abuser so it definitely doesn't guarantee that they'll turn that abuse onto others.
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Aug 12, 2018 20:55
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umalt posted:Fake Edit: Been re-watching Venture Bros due to the new season; and on a whole the show has aged great and the earlier seasons are still just as exciting due to the call-backs that are woven into the later seasons. But like a lot of mid-2000's humor there are a few bits of writing that are cringe-inducing, like the number of gags/plot-points where characters being trans is the punchline. Accordion Man has a new favorite as of 21:06 on Aug 12, 2018 |
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Aug 12, 2018 21:03
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Think about it this way. The Venn diagram for abusers who were abused is pretty drat close to a single circle. The Venn diagram for people who were abused who then became abusers isn’t anywhere close to that.
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Aug 12, 2018 21:49
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business hammocks posted:Also, abusers are more likely than an average person to lie for sympathy or attention.
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Aug 12, 2018 21:57
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Krispy Wafer posted:Think about it this way. The Venn diagram for abusers who were abused is pretty drat close to a single circle. So, rectangles and squares.
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Aug 12, 2018 22:19
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Accordion Man posted:Yeah, the recurring joke early on in the show where its like, "Lol Dr. Girlfriend is probably a transwoman and The Monarch is a gullible idiot to fall in love with her" was pretty lovely but they dropped it fairly quick.
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Aug 12, 2018 22:35
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Yeah, a lot of it is trying to explain things that don't make a lot of sense or find That One Thing we can look for to say "this person will do X, watch them/preemptively lock them up." Serial killers in particular just genuinely make no sense but we want to make sense of it. It would be useful to find out what causes monsters to make it easier to prevent the damage they cause but that just isn't possible. I didn't mean to imply that it's a major/only reason people turn into abusers! I should have worded it better, because I can see how what I said could come across as attacking the idea that abuse doesn't lead to abusers. I was just wondering whether abusers themselves being more likely to have been abused as children was no longer considered a contributing factor in any way. Which from what I see it really seems statistically insignificant. Probably wasn't the right way to ask it or the right thing to ask in context, so sorry about that. Not that I really I think trying to blame almost anything for a reason commit crimes is inherently flawed. We only have data on the criminals that we catch. Seems at least as likely that people with mental illnesses are just caught more often for some reason. Same with how everyone says serial killers all have an M.O., are unable to stop killing, and are cis men by a huge majority. When at least two of those reasons are also things that make it more likely to be caught. Obviously we shouldn't just throw our hands in the air and give up trying to understand. But it seems like none of the factors they say lead to crime or abuse or anything like that are things that should be considered with any certainty.
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Aug 12, 2018 23:37
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Accordion Man posted:Yeah, the recurring joke early on in the show where its like, "Lol Dr. Girlfriend is probably a transwoman and The Monarch is a gullible idiot to fall in love with her" was pretty lovely but they dropped it fairly quick. I do like it as an example of how easy it is to get used to stuff, though. It doesn't take long before you stop registering her voice as being weird in any way, and she's got plenty going on besides the voice.
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Aug 12, 2018 23:37
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Araenna posted:I didn't mean to imply that it's a major/only reason people turn into abusers! I should have worded it better, because I can see how what I said could come across as attacking the idea that abuse doesn't lead to abusers. I was just wondering whether abusers themselves being more likely to have been abused as children was no longer considered a contributing factor in any way. Which from what I see it really seems statistically insignificant. Probably wasn't the right way to ask it or the right thing to ask in context, so sorry about that. We're cool. It's important to have discussions because a real problem in society is this stigma on abuse victims and mental illness in general. It's a common assumption that mental illness causes people to commit crimes but that isn't necessarily true. The mentally ill are more likely to be in a lovely financial situation and people in lovely financial situations are more likely to commit petty crimes just to survive. It isn't necessarily that people with issues are more likely to get caught but rather than people with issues are more likely to have difficulties in life that lead to crimes in the first place. Most "criminals" in American prisons are actually non-violent offenders. Drug charges are a common one and, well, mental health issues are a leading cause of addictions. You get a possession charge then, oh no now you can't go to college and nobody will hire you! But your buddy Charlie knows a guy who knows a guy who needs some drugs run and...yeah. There are also concepts like "ideal victims" or "ideal offenders." Generally speaking people have a particular image of a criminal in their head. If I say "domestic abuse" you probably think of a big guy, probably wearing a stained shirt, probably drunk, beating up on his wife. If I say "rapist" you probably immediately think of a greasy guy with a creepy smile, dark hair, and a particular style of clothes, probably overconfident. Our brains just want to categorize things; we want to believe that we can spot criminals or rat them out easily but unfortunately the real world just plain doesn't work like that. Unfortunately if an accusation doesn't fit the ideal it's less likely to be investigated but if it fits the ideal it's more likely to lead to a conviction even if it's bullshit in the first place. Humans are complicated as hell. This is why profiling started; the idea was to figuring out what caused what but unfortunately it just doesn't work that way. No matter what outliers exist so you can't look at a case and make assumptions. Same thing with abusers and the abused; sometimes a person with a perfectly normal life that endured no abuse growing up turns out to be a hideous monster because, well, human brains just sometimes do that. People want to believe that you can spot things with certainty as if that isn't true then any random person might do something horrible some day which includes themselves. If you don't fit the profile of a monster then it's easy to go through life thinking "well that'll never be me or anybody I know" but, well, sometimes that nice person you drink with on Fridays has...uh...secrets. Anyway, an assumption that the abused become abusers is a problem specifically because it stigmatizes being a victim. Suddenly people are afraid to come forward about their victimization because then you'll get people assuming "so you'll abuse somebody some day too. That won't be me because go away." People are too complicated to profile easily in that sort of "a person who had X happen to them will always do Y later in life." There are people who have been through absolutely horrific abuses that didn't even develop the slightest hint of PTSD and went on to lead really normal lives. Of course in the case of television things run heavily on archetypes and things developing as you'd expect. The episode has to wrap in in 30 or 60 minutes and things that are too complex aren't allowed to happen. Like, of course that character is the type to commit sexual assault; just look at how self-absorbed he is! That's exactly the kind of person who would rape somebody. Why, I bet every single guy with that level of confidence has a long string of victims behind him... Except, you know, in the real world it's entirely possible that he's overcompensating for crippling depression and can't even bring himself to ask somebody out on a date.
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Aug 12, 2018 23:57
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Krispy Wafer posted:Think about it this way. The Venn diagram for abusers who were abused is pretty drat close to a single circle. That is not at all how Venn diagrams work.
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Aug 13, 2018 02:20
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I'm pretty sure abuse victims are more likely to be victimised by other abusers than they are to be abusive themselves. Likewise, the mentally ill are vastly more likely to be the victims of violent crime than the perpetrators.
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Aug 13, 2018 07:50
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Victims be victiming.
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Aug 13, 2018 12:48
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Tiggum posted:That is not at all how Venn diagrams work. How about victims of abuse who become abusers being a small circle inside the much bigger victims general circle? Kinda like how all pedos are Trekkies, but not all Trekkies are SA mods?
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Aug 13, 2018 13:10
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What's going on in this thre- 
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Aug 13, 2018 13:54
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umalt posted:But like a lot of mid-2000's humor there are a few bits of writing that are cringe-inducing, like the number of gags/plot-points where characters being trans is the punchline. Trans jokes were the go-to thing for a while when people wanted a cheap laugh but realised it wasn't acceptable to make gay jokes any more.
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Aug 13, 2018 14:09
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Tiggum posted:That is not at all how Venn diagrams work. How about a Venn diagram of people who cite Venn diagrams but don't know how to use them?
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Aug 13, 2018 14:27
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I'm sorry. I'm so sorry I led to this derail. And it was Venn's birthday recently, too. 
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Aug 13, 2018 14:28
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One Piece is... awkward like that where crossdressers play a part and are part of a lot of jokes but seem to be written out of a genuine respect and homage to the Japanese drag queen culture, with one drag queen getting to voice act a character based on him in the anime. (At first anyway, later he fell afoul of Japan's strict obscenity laws and was recast) Said character is literally king of a queendom of drag queens with the power to change people's sexes on a whim, which he gives out no questions asked to anyone who wants one. (and some people that don't, if they're jerks) And himself/herself whenever they feel like it. The main characters' resident voyeur and skirt-chaser is sent to said drag queendom to basically be sexually harassed for two years until he learns, among other things, the ability to walk on air and magical cooking techniques.
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Aug 13, 2018 14:34
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Everything in that post was fine until the last sentence.
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Aug 13, 2018 14:44
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It's a weird manga, don't shoot the messenger. Sanji kind of deserves it but he doesn't learn his lesson at all, instead being even weirder around women for a while after, and it doesn't help he then goes to a kingdom with lots of beautiful mermaids. (Should be said that women actually are attracted to Sanji when he's capable of acting like a normal person for five minutes. Also for context, the magical cooking techniques are something he deliberately sought out, since he is a cook himself and very proud of it) Dragon Ball Super notably makes a plot point out of Master Roshi learning to be less of a creep around women.
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Aug 13, 2018 14:56
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Ghost Leviathan posted:It's a weird manga, don't shoot the messenger. Sanji kind of deserves it but he doesn't learn his lesson at all, instead being even weirder around women for a while after, and it doesn't help he then goes to a kingdom with lots of beautiful mermaids. (Should be said that women actually are attracted to Sanji when he's capable of acting like a normal person for five minutes. Also for context, the magical cooking techniques are something he deliberately sought out, since he is a cook himself and very proud of it) But not before first making him much, much rapier than he ever was in Dragonball or Z (except when he was under the influence of magical mist that made him Evil. He starts Super at that level of attempting sexual assault).
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Aug 13, 2018 14:59
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And Roshi still uses *the implication* of sexual violence to intimidate opponents during the tournament.
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Aug 13, 2018 15:02
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Sanji almost getting raped for years on an island of hideously grotesque stereotypes of trans people and gaining his powers from escaping them is pretty much not at all forgivable imo It also coincided like you said with Oda suddenly getting super pervy immediately afterwards and hyper sexualizing what was previously a relatively neutral and gender equal story so sanji went from infatuated romantic obsessed weirdo to the cartoon wolf from little red hood essentially. Also the girls all suddenly had triple D boobs and lost 75% of their clothes (One Piece after the time skip is mostly bad)
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Aug 13, 2018 15:05
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Ghost Leviathan posted:The main characters' resident voyeur and skirt-chaser is sent to said drag queendom to basically be sexually harassed for two years until he learns, among other things, the ability to walk on air and magical cooking techniques. I need this to be an origin for whatever suoerhero movie gets made next. So much more interesting than the usual is an alien/had an accident that should have killed them/family tragically killed by CRIME origins everyone else gets.
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Aug 13, 2018 15:05
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From the cover stories I think the worst thing they did to him was make him wear a dress, but otherwise probably fair.
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Aug 13, 2018 15:08
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On the other hand Mr 2 Bon Clay is probably the most heroic and selfless figure in the entire story and Ivankov is a really powerful good guy too even though they’re both huge stereotypes from the same pervert island so it’s basically a case of Japan having no idea how to handle poo poo like that
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Aug 13, 2018 15:16
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sassassin posted:But not before first making him much, much rapier than he ever was in Dragonball or Z (except when he was under the influence of magical mist that made him Evil. He starts Super at that level of attempting sexual assault). I shoulda figured there's nothing weirder than anime attempting to be woke. Though apparently the mirror universe of DBZ has a female heroic version of Broly, who is totally-not-lesbian with another knight errant Saiyan. Aesop Poprock posted:On the other hand Mr 2 Bon Clay is probably the most heroic and selfless figure in the entire story and Ivankov is a really powerful good guy too even though they’re both huge stereotypes from the same pervert island so it’s basically a case of Japan having no idea how to handle poo poo like that A criminal organisation does seem to positively accept Bon Clay as being genderfluid as their roles go, so yeah... attempting to be accepting in a social environment that has an extremely poor understanding of such seems to sum it up. Also, Big Mom is just hosed up for probably mostly unrelated reasons, but seriously. Probably there's something to how the manga goes out of its way to show that genuinely evil people are rare, most people are messed up because of their environment and the people who raised them.
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Aug 13, 2018 16:05
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Aesop Poprock posted:Sanji almost getting raped for years on an island of hideously grotesque stereotypes of trans people and gaining his powers from escaping them is pretty much not at all forgivable imo From what I’ve been told he married a model and has been locked into a state of perpetual horniness ever since. I guess she used to cosplay as Nami so know he’s sexualized her more since. I mean it’s still kinda weird but at least he’s perving on his own wife and not jacking it to child porn like that ruroni Kenshin guy.
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Aug 13, 2018 16:16
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