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Papercut posted:Luke's defining character trait in the OT, and the thing that makes him more powerful than Vader or the Emperor, is his faith in the humanity of his father. The Jedi poo poo is great and all, but what actually brings down the Empire is his rejection of the idea that Vader was beyond hope. I get that like, he probably has PTSD and whatever from the star war, but his character being a completely different person in the ST really bugged me. Also the fact that so much of the movie was clearly this meta-narrative responding to fan speculation and criticism just made it all feel so cheap.
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Aug 14, 2018 20:24
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kidkissinger posted:"This movie was poorly written" Yeah, the amount of people saying that not liking TLJ is indicative of maturity issues or being too invested in **my childhood** is weird. It's like people just want an excuse to poo poo on peoples' opinions. Star Wars is a multi-billion dollar entity. You don't have to defend it. It can survive naysaying. "What do you mean you don't like McDonald's! Grow up snowflake."
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Aug 14, 2018 20:28
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The Last Jedi was so poorly written and nonsensical that JJ Abrams stated that he wished he could have directed it after he read it. The Last Jedi was so terrible that Lucasfilm invited the writer/director back to write and direct his own trilogy of films.
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Aug 14, 2018 20:29
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Dishwasher posted:Star Wars is a multi-billion dollar entity. You don't have to defend it. It can survive naysaying. Well, unless it's Solo, anyway. 
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Aug 14, 2018 20:29
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kidkissinger posted:
I feel like this is an inevitability in the modern world. It is pretty much impossible now days to be as insulated from fan expectations and theorizing as you were by default in the 70's and 80's. Even reading the magazines back then only gave you access to a limited set of voices. I can't imagine how much work it would take to disengage to that level now.
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Aug 14, 2018 20:30
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Preston Waters posted:The Last Jedi was so poorly written and nonsensical that JJ Abrams stated that he wished he could have directed it after he read it. This means you don't actually care about quality but about approval. In the other thread (why are there two threads?), I've gone over some major storytelling issues, like how the expository dialogue doesn't match what's happening onscreen and the editing is hosed in a way that's telling of massive last-minute reshoots. I've also gone into how this has led to so much confusion with audiences, as to what the moral of the story is or even just what the hell is going on in a given scene.
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Aug 14, 2018 20:34
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Preston Waters posted:And this is what it all boils down to. Almost every complaint about TLJ begins and ends with the fact that it wasn't exactly what the person had in mind. Tough poo poo, time to grow up. what's truly impressive about TLJ though is how people with vastly different expectations still managed to be equally disappointed in it together it's like a movie made out of the ethos of modern american centrism. you try to give everyone a little bit to like but you just end up giving everyone a little bit to hate
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Aug 14, 2018 20:35
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remusclaw posted:I feel like this is an inevitability in the modern world. It is pretty much impossible now days to be as insulated from fan expectations and theorizing as you were by default in the 70's and 80's. Even reading the magazines back then only gave you access to a limited set of voices. I can't imagine how much work it would take to disengage to that level now. See, I didn't get that impression from it and I wonder if it's because while I was broadly aware of all the theorycrafting going on, I wasn't a participant in it or anything. Like I mentioned before, one of the things that sincerely surprised me after TLJ came out was discovering that all these people were apparently incredibly invested in the backstory and identity of Snoke beyond him being an evil emperor archetype, because I was just going by TFA and as I mentioned in the last few pages I honestly didn't get the impression from TFA that he was being set up as anything more than that.
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Aug 14, 2018 20:36
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Star Wars has a (rich???) history of world-building, all of it abandoned and supposedly in line to be replaced with full canon level official world-building. West End games and later the EU screwed Disney and hell, even George Lucas, when it comes to being able to just release some high budget tightly edited film serial homages starring stock characters with funny names.
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Aug 14, 2018 20:41
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Wheat Loaf posted:See, I didn't get that impression from it and I wonder if it's because while I was broadly aware of all the theorycrafting going on, I wasn't a participant in it or anything. Like I mentioned before, one of the things that sincerely surprised me after TLJ came out was discovering that all these people were apparently incredibly invested in the backstory and identity of Snoke beyond him being an evil emperor archetype, because I was just going by TFA and as I mentioned in the last few pages I honestly didn't get the impression from TFA that he was being set up as anything more than that. I'm not going to say I was invested in him as a character but I was just hoping they'd give a little explanation. Like there aren't many (any?) sith fuckers running around and here comes this dude running poo poo and he looks old as gently caress. Sooo?? I dunno it was just one of the things that bugged me when he died because it was just like  time to move on!
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Aug 14, 2018 20:41
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remusclaw posted:Star Wars has a (rich???) history of world-building, all of it abandoned and supposedly in line to be replaced with full canon level official world-building. West End games and later the EU screwed Disney and hell, even George Lucas, when it comes to being able to just release some high budget tightly edited film serial homages starring stock characters with funny names. And that's another thing - I read almost all of that and I think it lowered my standards.
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Aug 14, 2018 20:46
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Wheat Loaf posted:See, I didn't get that impression from it and I wonder if it's because while I was broadly aware of all the theorycrafting going on, I wasn't a participant in it or anything. Like I mentioned before, one of the things that sincerely surprised me after TLJ came out was discovering that all these people were apparently incredibly invested in the backstory and identity of Snoke beyond him being an evil emperor archetype, because I was just going by TFA and as I mentioned in the last few pages I honestly didn't get the impression from TFA that he was being set up as anything more than that. You know what's hilarious? Most of these people are still coming up with insane theories that are equally as horrible as "Smoke is Mace Windu" or whatever flavor of the month youtube video said pre-TLJ. I think they're all in denial. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mZZAvIHMvQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHRpD7llLSU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gg6iZH9toc also fan fiction https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjLWBbYm9_s
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Aug 14, 2018 20:47
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MarcusSA posted:I'm not going to say I was invested in him as a character but I was just hoping they'd give a little explanation. Like there aren't many (any?) sith fuckers running around and here comes this dude running poo poo and he looks old as gently caress. Sooo?? He was just the latest rear end in a top hat in charge. That's why I love it. He wasn't important other than the fact that he accumulated wealth and power.
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Aug 14, 2018 20:50
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Obviously any Star Wars media other than the original trilogy and the prequel movies is going to be fan fiction, because George Lucas is the only one who never made a movie "for Star Wars fans".
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Aug 14, 2018 20:53
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Wheat Loaf posted:See, I didn't get that impression from it and I wonder if it's because while I was broadly aware of all the theorycrafting going on, I wasn't a participant in it or anything. Like I mentioned before, one of the things that sincerely surprised me after TLJ came out was discovering that all these people were apparently incredibly invested in the backstory and identity of Snoke beyond him being an evil emperor archetype, because I was just going by TFA and as I mentioned in the last few pages I honestly didn't get the impression from TFA that he was being set up as anything more than that. It's conflating two different arguments. One side was invested in Snoke's 'secret identity', expecting a twist where it's revealed that Snoke was Ki Adi Mundi all along and that's why we should care about him. This is because audiences were confused by why this lovely character was onscreen. They were expecting supplementary material to 'fix' the movie and explain why they wasted their time. They were saying, like, "There's no way the villain is so lovely. There must be some kind of secret twist." Ditto for Rey. The unbearable truth is that there is no secret. They just suck. The other side is simply noting that Snoke is vaguely described as some kind of Stalin figure. Then it turns out he's an evil Christian pope? Then he dies? I thought they were fascists? Like did Stalin "rise from the ashes" of Nazi Germany? That doesn't seem right. What is the movie saying about Stalinism? Everyone's saying Snoke's just exactly the same as The Emperor but, no, he obviously isn't.
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Aug 14, 2018 20:53
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Preston Waters posted:He was just the latest rear end in a top hat in charge. That's why I love it. He wasn't important other than the fact that he accumulated wealth and power. I guess? I mean he was also a pretty powerful Sith... SuperMechagodzilla posted:It's conflating two different arguments. I hate to agree with SMG here but...loving Star Wars is bringing me to it! gently caress you Star Wars!
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Aug 14, 2018 20:53
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MarcusSA posted:I guess? I mean he was also a pretty powerful Sith... Which means what exactly? As far as I can tell, in the movies, Sith=Evil Wizard.
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Aug 14, 2018 20:55
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remusclaw posted:Which means what exactly? That they are like what 1 in a billion? Or more? The Sith were always super loving rare and there weren't like 8000 of them running around like the Jedi Order.
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Aug 14, 2018 20:57
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Some fans were excited about what the new SW movie would be about plot-wise, how it would intricately weave characters and histories together, and create interesting lore with their new characters. Essentially, people were excited to not have their time wasted. Saying these people are "no one lol" is wasting time. I wasn't a part of the people theorizing about the plot either, but those people weren't coming from a place of idiocy or childishness, but genuine enthusiasm. Seeing people, and even some of the management, poo poo on people for this enthusiasm is kinda sad. "Nothing means anything in this story! Are you not pleased, snowflake?" is definitely the main theme of today's real-world but isn't the kind of thing some people want to see in a film. I think that's understandable. I feel like if another series did this with its story hooks, like Avengers; which didn't waste peoples' time or try to make them feel foolish for caring about details, people would be pretty disappointed. MarcusSA posted:gently caress you Star Wars! Truth is it's definitely time to move on to something else. I think people have already started. Dishwasher fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Aug 14, 2018 |
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Aug 14, 2018 21:00
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MarcusSA posted:I guess? I mean he was also a pretty powerful Sith He's not a Sith though? No one says he's a sith. MarcusSA posted:I hate to agree with SMG here but...loving Star Wars is bringing me to it! Please do not encourage or reject SMG. He has a mental illness and reinforcing his psychosis is cruel, but he angers quickly if you are dismissive. It's best to just to stay vigilant...
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Aug 14, 2018 21:01
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MarcusSA posted:That they are like what 1 in a billion? Or more? The Sith were always super loving rare and there weren't like 8000 of them running around like the Jedi Order. I mean yeah, if you are into the novels and comics and poo poo, but in the movies, evil wizards. Maybe an occasional dark knight. Preston Waters posted:He's not a Sith though? No one says he's a sith. I mean poo poo, nobody so much as says the word Sith until the prequels. I know it originated in George's early scripts but there is no saying whether it would have ever shown up after that if it hadn't been normalized in the EU. remusclaw fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Aug 14, 2018 |
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Aug 14, 2018 21:01
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Preston Waters posted:He was just the latest rear end in a top hat in charge. That's why I love it. He wasn't important other than the fact that he accumulated wealth and power. I love flat cartoon characters, so classic. People that didn't like it just need to grow up!
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Aug 14, 2018 21:03
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Papercut posted:I love flat cartoon characters, so classic. People that didn't like it just need to grow up! He's not the focus of the story. Sorry you can't deal with this and have to act like a tool though.
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Aug 14, 2018 21:03
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Dishwasher posted:Truth is it's definitely time to move on to something else. I think people have already started. Which is why Episo Haha, nah, I'm only messing.
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Aug 14, 2018 21:04
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Preston Waters posted:He's not the focus of the story. Sorry you can't deal with this and have to act like a tool though. Nice meltdown
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Aug 14, 2018 21:06
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Preston Waters posted:He's not the focus of the story. Sorry you can't deal with this and have to act like a tool though. As many people have pointed out, his pivotal role in Kylo Ren's character arc begs for further explanation. It's fine if you like that he's barely even a character, but telling anyone who disliked the film to grow up while simultaneously praising the lack of character development is ironic.
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Aug 14, 2018 21:07
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Papercut posted:As many people have pointed out, his pivotal role in Kylo Ren's character arc begs for further explanation. It's fine if you like that he's barely even a character, but telling anyone who disliked the film to grow up while simultaneously praising the lack of character development is ironic. There has been character development involving the main characters. If you want something that explores the tertiary characters, might I suggest the novel companion book or some of the comic books to wet your whistle?
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Aug 14, 2018 21:09
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This is from the wiki on Snoke quote:Snoke appears in the 2015 novelization of The Force Awakens by Alan Dean Foster.[34] In the novel, Leia tells Han in more detail how Snoke, aware that their son would be "strong with the Force" and possess "equal potential for good or evil", had long watched Ben and manipulated events to draw him to the dark side. Wtf does that even mean?? gently caress all of this I'm out. Preston Waters posted:There has been character development involving the main characters. If you want something that explores the tertiary characters, might I suggest the novel companion book or some of the comic books to wet your whistle? lol don't bother they don't explain poo poo either.
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Aug 14, 2018 21:11
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Snoke as a component of Kylo's backstory was something that needed more development than it got and I think that's one thing that confuses me a lot: I've seen a great deal more of "Who was Snoke?" as a complaint than "How did Snoke turn Kylo bad?" and I think the latter is a more interesting and probably a more important question which nonetheless seems to get far less attention in any of these "WHY THE LAST JEDI WAS A CINEMATIC TRAVESTY AND KATHLEEN KENNEDY IS AN SJW WHO SHOULD BE PUT IN FRONT OF A FIRING SQUAD IMMEDIATELY" videos that YouTube keeps recommending me than the former does.
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Aug 14, 2018 21:13
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MarcusSA posted:This is from the wiki on Snoke Yeah, I figured making the books and poo poo canon would only further relegate them to being about nothing interesting whatsoever. I also figured the Knights of Ren would have led to at least one good action scene but they seem to have been written off. remusclaw fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Aug 14, 2018 |
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Aug 14, 2018 21:14
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remusclaw posted:I mean yeah, if you are into the novels and comics and poo poo, but in the movies, evil wizards. Maybe an occasional dark knight. In the movies, Jedi are the 'saints' of a broader pantheistic religion. Lots of people believe in the Force, but only certain gifted mutants can be trained to be Jedi. Sith are the same, except for Satanism. With Snoke, we don't actually know if he is a Sith or not because the movie is bad at storytelling. Most of the evidence points to him being a Christian - a Vader-worshipper. That would make him a new type of religious leader. But it's unclear, because all he does is sit in a chair and talk. We see all these superweapons and things around him, but Snoke dismisses them as stupid. His real goal is more important, and that goal is...? SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Aug 14, 2018 |
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Aug 14, 2018 21:15
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:In the movies, Jedi are the 'saints' of a broader pantheistic religion. Lots of people believe in the Force, but only certain gifted mutants can be trained to be Jedi. He does do a few evil force things though. So its not as though it was just a manipulator he did have some skills.
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Aug 14, 2018 21:17
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remusclaw posted:I figured the Knights of Ren would have led to at least one good action scene but they seem to have been written off. There's a couple of rumours that they'll be in Episode IX but we'll have to wait and see.
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Aug 14, 2018 21:17
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I enjoyed the new movies for what they are but I feel like if they really didn't want to do anything with the old characters other than poo poo on their legacy and anything they accomplished in the OT they should have just set the movies a hundred years later or something. You could still bring back force ghost Luke and Yoda if you needed, maybe have Chewie all gray in a Kashyyk nursing home or whatever. I loved how much fun Hamill seemed to be having in the role but other than that it seemed like a complete waste.
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Aug 14, 2018 21:17
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They probably should have left them out but I think the fact that they were bringing them back was a pretty big part of what sold people on the new movies in the first place. Harrison Ford showing up and going "Chewie, we're home!" was the big thing that everyone talked about in that first TFA trailer, for instance. I don't know if that says more about fans or about Lucasfilm, though. Probably a bit of both. I don't know. The casual fans probably wanted to see their old favourites back while the hardcores who'd been into all the EU poo poo were likely just inured to stories about septuagenarian Han, Luke and Leia saving the day once again as the next generation cheered them on.
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Aug 14, 2018 21:19
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Star Wars, without the EU, felt like a closed story. The prequels, for all their faults, didn't gently caress that up. The EU to some extent and the sequel movies however take what could easily be read as a happily ever after ending and pick up years later after the good guys completely failed to follow up constructively on their victory. It takes the movies everyone loves, and says, all of this amounted to jack poo poo. This is probably why even though I actually like all of these movies more than I like the prequels, I feel like they hurt the originals more.
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Aug 14, 2018 21:24
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Basically the ST is like if there was a Seinfeld reunion but in the episode you learn that Jerry went to mediocrity and do a couple stupid B-Movies, some poorly received TV shows, George vanishes but when he does he has a headful of hair and quickly vanishes again, Kramer turns out to be a massive racist, and Elaine has numerous missteps but then fifteen years later finds her footing.
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Aug 14, 2018 21:24
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remusclaw posted:Star Wars, without the EU, felt like a closed story. The prequels, for all their faults, didn't gently caress that up. The EU and the sequel movies however take what could easily be read as a happily ever after ending and pick up years later after the good guys completely failed to follow up constructively on their victory. It takes the movies everyone loves, and says, all of this amounted to jack poo poo. This is probably why even though I actually like all of these movies more than I like the prequels, I feel like they hurt the originals more. Yeah but EU fans at least got to experience their heros doing more heroic poo poo for awhile. Instead of the OT trio just becoming massive fuckups who couldn't manage to get a single thing right after ROTJ.
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Aug 14, 2018 21:26
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DrNutt posted:Yeah but EU fans at least got to experience their heros doing more heroic poo poo for awhile. Instead of the OT trio just becoming massive fuckups who couldn't manage to get a single thing right after ROTJ. Yeah I added a light caveat to my EU statement in an edit. You could just ignore them too if you wanted because it wasn't like they were ever going to get more that the most cursory reference in the movies, so it really couldn't hurt things that much, even with all the dumb poo poo they did in the New Jedi Order run of books.
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Aug 14, 2018 21:28
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remusclaw posted:Yeah I added a light caveat to my EU statement in an edit. You could just ignore them too if you wanted because it wasn't like they were ever going to get more that the most cursory reference in the movies, so it really couldn't hurt things that much, even with all the dumb poo poo they did in the New Jedi Order run of books. Yeah, even my gf who was obsessed with the books and felt "betrayed" by the new movies generally stopped reading them after NJO I think. I've read the first Zahn book and that was enough for me. Something about the way they're written is just obnoxious and I have zero desire to read on. I will give them credit for crafting a credible threat to the OT heroes so that they could be challenged and have to overcome an enemy without making them incompetent morons, at least in that first book.
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Aug 14, 2018 21:46
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