Stellaris: a second Astral Planes has hit the game

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Stellaris: a second Astral Planes has hit the game

Aethernet: Jan 28, 2009; This is the Captain...

Our glorious political masters have, in their wisdom, decided to form an alliance with a rag-tag bunch of freedom fighters right when the Federation has us at a tactical disadvantage. Unsurprisingly, this has resulted in the Feds firing on our vessels...

Damn you Huxley!; Grimey Drawer

binge crotching posted:

Move a single hive pop over to the new planet.
Put in sector
Ignore

You don't need to micro it, because the unrest doesn't matter. You will finish exterminating them within 2 years, and the rebellion events require them to be over 50 unrest for more than 2 years.

That said, it is vastly more efficient to spread the growth out to every planet in your empire. If you swap one hive pop per planet with one of the newly conquered planet's pops, then when that one pop finishes getting processed you'll have a single pop per planet that is growing. They'll all grow much faster than waiting for 15 pops on one planet to grow. It is a lot of extra work though, and I usually stop doing it about the time I also stop caring about having anything other than my capital in my core worlds.

I'm really hoping the new economic model will mean that worlds conquered by Devouring Swarms will directly convert eaten pops into your pops to avoid this pop rearrangement faff. For non-carnivorous races, this could be just be a toggle to tell your serfs to move to the new lebensraum.

# ? Aug 15, 2018 20:29

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# ? Apr 25, 2024 02:58

Crazycryodude: Aug 15, 2015; Lets get our X tons of Duranium back!

....Is that still a valid thing to jingoistically blow out of proportion?

binge crotching posted:

Move a single hive pop over to the new planet.
Put in sector
Ignore

You don't need to micro it, because the unrest doesn't matter. You will finish exterminating them within 2 years, and the rebellion events require them to be over 50 unrest for more than 2 years.

The unrest matters specifically for Devouring Swarms/Determined Exterminators because if it gets too high you no longer get the resources they'd otherwise produce, which is a big deal. I usually build my Swarms at least to be running a pretty large food deficit and just constantly be eating neighbors to make up for it because you can easily get hundreds and hundreds of food per month from purging, but they have to be spread out to produce their full output instead of concentrated on the planets they came with where they'll produce zero because of unrest. Purifiers/other xenophobes/normal hive minds who just want the aliens out of the way for Lebensraum can just plop it in a sector though, yeah. Unrest only matters if you want resources out of them.

# ? Aug 15, 2018 20:30

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

�\_(ツ)_/�

# ? Aug 15, 2018 20:41

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

binge crotching posted:

That said, it is vastly more efficient to spread the growth out to every planet in your empire. If you swap one hive pop per planet with one of the newly conquered planet's pops, then when that one pop finishes getting processed you'll have a single pop per planet that is growing. They'll all grow much faster than waiting for 15 pops on one planet to grow. It is a lot of extra work though, and I usually stop doing it about the time I also stop caring about having anything other than my capital in my core worlds.

Yeah, I would really like it if there was a button that found (planet free tiles - 1) worth of fully populated planets, and moved one pop from each to the selected world for me (and if robots began new construction of replacements).

# ? Aug 15, 2018 20:43

Staltran: Jan 3, 2013; Fallen Rib

ConfusedUs posted:

Yep, that's how you do it.

Moving food pops off-planet is free, and moving your own pops is cheap.

So every time you conquer a planet, move a few of your dudes there and spread most of their dudes across your empire.

Also, devouring swarms can get a total -150% resettlement cost modifier for processed pops with a purity tradition (-50% from hive mind, another -50% from the tradition, -50% because it's being purged). While a resettlement transaction can never give you energy, it's possible to use this negative cost to cover the expense of moving your own pops. With the tradition you're at -100% cost for your own pops, so ordinarily this is useless, but it's nice if your pops are sedentary. They might have fixed this, but that's how it worked maybe two months ago. Example: You move a non-nomadic, non-sedentary pop being processed to another planet. You also move a sedentary pop of your own species to replace the pop being processed. Resettling the pop being processed costs -50 energy, your own pop 25. This adds to -25, but the game doesn't let resettlement give you energy, so you just break even. You could move 2 sedentary pops for free for every pop you're eating that you move.

It's kinda neat, but not really that useful, and clearly not WAD.

# ? Aug 15, 2018 20:49

ConfusedUs: Feb 24, 2004; Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!

WhiskeyJuvenile posted:

�\_(ツ)_/�

Is it possible that one of the following is true:
1) The alien pre-sapient species are counting against you
2) One or more of your pops is stuck in another empire with different genetic traits, and counts against you?

# ? Aug 15, 2018 20:53

Crazycryodude: Aug 15, 2015; Lets get our X tons of Duranium back!

....Is that still a valid thing to jingoistically blow out of proportion?

WhiskeyJuvenile posted:

�\_(ツ)_/�

I think it's because you aren't paying your Space Maids enough

# ? Aug 15, 2018 20:56

Strudel Man: May 19, 2003; ROME DID NOT HAVE ROBOTS, FUCKWIT

WhiskeyJuvenile posted:

�\_(ツ)_/�

The relevant code is:

code:

NOT = {
	any_owned_pop = {
		is_same_species = root.owner
		NOT = { is_exact_same_species = root.owner }
	}
}

So at first blush, I'd say it's considering the 'owner species' to be original species of your empire, now with 0 members.

# ? Aug 15, 2018 21:00

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

I really hope we can do a lot more with the new pop and planet system, and do a lot more easily with little to no micro-management. I also hope we'll see improvements to robots, and allow empires to have various "species" of robots together.

For instance, I'd love to be a materialist civilization that has fully sapient droids and humans living in harmony together with full equal rights, but also have mining-droids working the mines and servant droids pampering the various organic and non-organic citizens. I really so desperately hope to see an end of the system where researching synths auto-upgrades all your robots giving them all the same bonuses and new citizen issues that come along with it. I'd love to see actual species policies that let me for instance make it so my humans are freed from all menial work, they can only research and create culture and art while all physical labour is done by non-sapient robots, while at the same time also have the ability to build synths. Everyone is happy, no sapients are enslaved or exploited.

# ? Aug 15, 2018 21:12

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

WhiskeyJuvenile posted:

�\_(ツ)_/�

That should iron itself out, maybe it needs a save and reload? Or set your main species to assimilation or something, and it just flips it into one variant.

# ? Aug 15, 2018 21:27

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Baronjutter posted:

I really hope we can do a lot more with the new pop and planet system, and do a lot more easily with little to no micro-management. I also hope we'll see improvements to robots, and allow empires to have various "species" of robots together.

For instance, I'd love to be a materialist civilization that has fully sapient droids and humans living in harmony together with full equal rights, but also have mining-droids working the mines and servant droids pampering the various organic and non-organic citizens. I really so desperately hope to see an end of the system where researching synths auto-upgrades all your robots giving them all the same bonuses and new citizen issues that come along with it. I'd love to see actual species policies that let me for instance make it so my humans are freed from all menial work, they can only research and create culture and art while all physical labour is done by non-sapient robots, while at the same time also have the ability to build synths. Everyone is happy, no sapients are enslaved or exploited.

This is not going to happen because how you deal with sapient robots is supposed to be a choice/trade-off and if you could just keep most of your robots non-sapient there would be one obviously best choice for every play-through.

# ? Aug 15, 2018 21:29

dead gay comedy forums: Oct 21, 2011

Wiz posted:

This is not going to happen because how you deal with sapient robots is supposed to be a choice/trade-off and if you could just keep most of your robots non-sapient there would be one obviously best choice for every play-through.

but mods tho

Seriously, Paradox should consider some RPG-like game lines where balance goes through the window and all that matters is doing ridiculous, awesome and hilarious combinations of game mechanics

# ? Aug 15, 2018 21:50

A_Spec: Nov 2, 2012

They're already doing that with Crusader Kings 2, and that model, in my opinion, doesn't really work with Stellaris.

# ? Aug 15, 2018 21:51

Hunt11: Jul 24, 2013; Grimey Drawer

In this update is there any chance you can take a look at the militaristic faction and what makes them happy? Right now it feels really strange to have an unhappy militaristic faction when you have the strongest navy in the galaxy.

# ? Aug 15, 2018 21:57

appropriatemetaphor: Jan 26, 2006

Yeah militarist is kinda weird.

Like I like doing Egalitarian/Militarist and just conquering all the aliens and giving them utopian living standards (is that Egal that gives that? Whichever one does that's what I pick). But then you get Militarist faction hating on aliens! We don't hate aliens we just want to help them!

# ? Aug 15, 2018 22:04

TheDeadlyShoe: Feb 14, 2014; pretense is my co-pilot

I mean they don't need to be perfectly happy for it to be fine. It's already too easy to make factions happy imo. Especially if we're talking already-won-the-game power levels.

# ? Aug 15, 2018 22:10

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

WhiskeyJuvenile posted:

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I "think" it was a colonist ship?

# ? Aug 15, 2018 22:12

AG3: Feb 4, 2004; Ask me about spending hundreds of dollars on Mass Effect 2 emoticons and Avatars.; Oven Wrangler

TheDeadlyShoe posted:

I mean they don't need to be perfectly happy for it to be fine. It's already too easy to make factions happy imo. Especially if we're talking already-won-the-game power levels.

What I find weirdest about factions is that your ruler can be a leader of one of them and be insanely dissatisfied with how your empire is being run, which is doubly weird when you play imperial dictatorships.

# ? Aug 15, 2018 22:17

TheDeadlyShoe: Feb 14, 2014; pretense is my co-pilot

You'd be unhappy too if your every action was controlled by a godlike ghost from beyond space and time.

# ? Aug 15, 2018 22:21

AG3: Feb 4, 2004; Ask me about spending hundreds of dollars on Mass Effect 2 emoticons and Avatars.; Oven Wrangler

For all I know they are. Sometimes the choices I make in life baffles even myself.

# ? Aug 15, 2018 22:23

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

AG3 posted:

What I find weirdest about factions is that your ruler can be a leader of one of them and be insanely dissatisfied with how your empire is being run, which is doubly weird when you play imperial dictatorships.

POTUS_lacking_house_majority.txt

# ? Aug 15, 2018 22:24

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

Wiz posted:

This is not going to happen because how you deal with sapient robots is supposed to be a choice/trade-off and if you could just keep most of your robots non-sapient there would be one obviously best choice for every play-through.

The idea of a nearly fully automated luxury society that also has "strong AI" with full rights is a pretty common one in scifi too. If the balance doesn't allow it, fix the balance. It seems like a weirdly restrictive choice to choose between "we know how to make robots be people, thus all robots are suddenly now people and thus enslaved" and "Our robots are just tools with no sapiance so obviously they are not slaves." Why not "We have a vast array of robots and automation technology along with a spectrum of rights and protections based on the levels of sapiance of the intelligence in question"

# ? Aug 15, 2018 22:33

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Baronjutter posted:

The idea of a nearly fully automated luxury society that also has "strong AI" with full rights is a pretty common one in scifi too. If the balance doesn't allow it, fix the balance. It seems like a weirdly restrictive choice to choose between "we know how to make robots be people, thus all robots are suddenly now people and thus enslaved" and "Our robots are just tools with no sapiance so obviously they are not slaves." Why not "We have a vast array of robots and automation technology along with a spectrum of rights and protections based on the levels of sapiance of the intelligence in question"

There is a perfectly good gameplay choice present already that captures the themes of AI rights and rebellion (with even more significance to its effects under the new system). 'It's weird' is not a good enough reason to tear that up, and 'fix the balance' doesn't even mean anything. More options does not always make for better gameplay or more interesting choices.

# ? Aug 15, 2018 22:35

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

Wiz posted:

There is a perfectly good gameplay choice present already that captures the themes of AI rights and rebellion (with even more significance to its effects under the new system). 'It's weird' is not a good enough reason to tear that up, and 'fix the balance' doesn't even mean anything. More options does not always make for better gameplay or more interesting choices.

Yeah, ultimately this is a game with some set mechanics and not everyone's imagined space society can fit. Just in this specific case it feels so close to being possible. But none of us have seen the new tile/pop system yet so it's hard to really speculate on what would work and what wouldn't.

# ? Aug 15, 2018 22:47

TheDeadlyShoe: Feb 14, 2014; pretense is my co-pilot

Baronjutter posted:

The idea of a nearly fully automated luxury society that also has "strong AI" with full rights is a pretty common one in scifi too. If the balance doesn't allow it, fix the balance. It seems like a weirdly restrictive choice to choose between "we know how to make robots be people, thus all robots are suddenly now people and thus enslaved" and "Our robots are just tools with no sapiance so obviously they are not slaves." Why not "We have a vast array of robots and automation technology along with a spectrum of rights and protections based on the levels of sapiance of the intelligence in question"

Because its space opera. Mining robots are robo-humans with laser pickaxes, not drilltubes. And because you're creating an optimal choice with no downsides. That's not good gameplay.

# ? Aug 15, 2018 22:48

Crazycryodude: Aug 15, 2015; Lets get our X tons of Duranium back!

....Is that still a valid thing to jingoistically blow out of proportion?

The good thing is that Stellaris is already a highly moddable game, and if I understand last week's dev diary correctly the economic overhaul is gonna be so fundamentally moddable that you can do basically anything you want with it relating to the economy and popuation, including modding it so you can have sapient brainbots and non-sapient workerbots. Which, like Wiz said, is an objectively best choice so I probably wouldn't download that mod because that would be boring, but to each their own.

# ? Aug 15, 2018 22:56

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Crazycryodude posted:

The good thing is that Stellaris is already a highly moddable game, and if I understand last week's dev diary correctly the economic overhaul is gonna be so fundamentally moddable that you can do basically anything you want with it relating to the economy and popuation, including modding it so you can have sapient brainbots and non-sapient workerbots. Which, like Wiz said, is an objectively best choice so I probably wouldn't download that mod because that would be boring, but to each their own.

It will absolutely be possible to mod in.

# ? Aug 15, 2018 22:58

Jazerus: May 24, 2011

i mean there are all kinds of ways a mod could balance it as part of a bigger system - a set of mutually exclusive high-powered endgame civics, for example, one of which enables the construction of droids/robots even after synths are unlocked

# ? Aug 15, 2018 23:02

TheDeadlyShoe: Feb 14, 2014; pretense is my co-pilot

at that point does anything even matter...?

i mean if you're hit endgame and patched your AI or given them full rights then we're just talking a straight up inferior choice.

# ? Aug 15, 2018 23:02

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

TheDeadlyShoe posted:

Because its space opera. Mining robots are robo-humans with laser pickaxes, not drilltubes. And because you're creating an optimal choice with no downsides. That's not good gameplay.

Yeah, we just want very different things out of the game. I don't want to imagine robot-humans with pickaxes that have been upgraded over generations to the point of emergent sapiance finally asking their masters some poignant philosophical question that makes everyone gasp and realize maybe the robots are people and enslaved, that's such a tired cliche. I want to imagine huge automated tunnel boring machines attached to huge automated material processing plants all being maintained by a huge variety of drones and mobile industrial equipment ranging from tiny spider-like robots that clean the drill heads to massive mobile 3d printer systems. I want to imagine that each piece of equipment is given the processing power and abilities it needs to do its job because they are just pieces of equipment, not people, and don't need sapience. I then want to imagine a sapient intelligence overseeing and coordinating all this industrial activity and equipment, maybe it sometimes uses a physical avatar to inspect the site, but usually it just exists within the mine's vast networks. But, because this industrial intelligence exists within a materialist society it has rights and protections and has been classified as a citizen. As are the ships in my automated fleet, as are the vast research and scientific AI's that work alongside our organic research pops, as are the humanoid synths built to experience lives similar to our organic pops. I want to create something like "The Culture" which had everything from god-ai's to mindless drones all living in harmony.

But where do you draw the line? One empire may see all those artificial minds as nothing more than tools and equipment. Another might find the very existence of them a threat to their society. For a materialist society the "optimal" choice is of course to give the sapient AI rights, but that might not be the optimal choice for a spiritualist society. Full AI rights without your population getting a little paranoid about god-like AI's doing more and more of the work, not just mining and construction, but science, government, even art and culture, is a benefit of being materialist, that's where the balance is and the interesting choices are. Those are the choices that I love, not "what's the most optimal build order to rush early game minerals" or "what's the most optimal early game warmonger strategy"

I mean heck, you could even have a "decadence" system for late game empires. Your human pops that once pioneered the galaxy and now all pampered and no one has done physical work or endured any sort of hardship for generations because robots have done that, and now that there's better and better sapient AI, those humans aren't even bothering with science or culture anymore. What do you do at this point? Replace your lazy uncreative humans with synths? Accept that your empire's founding populations have become bio-trophies and officially switch to that gameplay mechanic? Restrict AI and get your humans back to work but face a potential AI uprising? I can think of so many ways to "balance" being able to have both synths-with-citizen-rights and worker-droids and have it lead to more interesting gameplay and inter-empire interactions. I get not having the time to implement mechanics and balance to make it all work, but to say it's just not possible due to "balance" or would present one "optimal" choice feels extremely unimaginative.

# ? Aug 15, 2018 23:18

Yngwie Mangosteen: Aug 23, 2007

Baronjutter posted:

Yeah, we just want very different things out of the game. I don't want to imagine robot-humans with pickaxes that have been upgraded over generations to the point of emergent sapiance finally asking their masters some poignant philosophical question that makes everyone gasp and realize maybe the robots are people and enslaved, that's such a tired cliche. I want to imagine huge automated tunnel boring machines attached to huge automated material processing plants all being maintained by a huge variety of drones and mobile industrial equipment ranging from tiny spider-like robots that clean the drill heads to massive mobile 3d printer systems. I want to imagine that each piece of equipment is given the processing power and abilities it needs to do its job because they are just pieces of equipment, not people, and don't need sapience. I then want to imagine a sapient intelligence overseeing and coordinating all this industrial activity and equipment, maybe it sometimes uses a physical avatar to inspect the site, but usually it just exists within the mine's vast networks. But, because this industrial intelligence exists within a materialist society it has rights and protections and has been classified as a citizen. As are the ships in my automated fleet, as are the vast research and scientific AI's that work alongside our organic research pops, as are the humanoid synths built to experience lives similar to our organic pops. I want to create something like "The Culture" which had everything from god-ai's to mindless drones all living in harmony.

But where do you draw the line? One empire may see all those artificial minds as nothing more than tools and equipment. Another might find the very existence of them a threat to their society. For a materialist society the "optimal" choice is of course to give the sapient AI rights, but that might not be the optimal choice for a spiritualist society. Full AI rights without your population getting a little paranoid about god-like AI's doing more and more of the work, not just mining and construction, but science, government, even art and culture, is a benefit of being materialist, that's where the balance is and the interesting choices are. Those are the choices that I love, not "what's the most optimal build order to rush early game minerals" or "what's the most optimal early game warmonger strategy"

I mean heck, you could even have a "decadence" system for late game empires. Your human pops that once pioneered the galaxy and now all pampered and no one has done physical work or endured any sort of hardship for generations because robots have done that, and now that there's better and better sapient AI, those humans aren't even bothering with science or culture anymore. What do you do at this point? Replace your lazy uncreative humans with synths? Accept that your empire's founding populations have become bio-trophies and officially switch to that gameplay mechanic? Restrict AI and get your humans back to work but face a potential AI uprising? I can think of so many ways to "balance" being able to have both synths-with-citizen-rights and worker-droids and have it lead to more interesting gameplay and inter-empire interactions. I get not having the time to implement mechanics and balance to make it all work, but to say it's just not possible due to "balance" or would present one "optimal" choice feels extremely unimaginative.

Sir, this is a space McDonald's.

# ? Aug 16, 2018 00:15

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

Captain Monkey posted:

Sir, this is a space McDonald's.

*enslaves automated order kiosk*

# ? Aug 16, 2018 00:25

SniperWoreConverse: Mar 20, 2010; Gun Saliva

Captain Monkey posted:

Sir, this is a space McDonald's.

*devouring horde pulls up*
*they've obviously got the munchies and are so high they maybe shouldn't be behind the control yoke*
"yeah, hey... gimme everything, like all the food, dude"

# ? Aug 16, 2018 00:31

Demiurge4: Aug 10, 2011

I mean yeah, incredibly advanced and incredibly powerful bodyless AI make more sense in a sci fi setting but this doesn't jive with Stellaris, it just doesn't fit.

Edit: Star Sector's next update is a huge industry patch that adds player owned structures and colonies. You can plug in alpha level AI to help manage this and you should ~~never~~ definitely always do this.

It fits that game because AI are scary golden age remnants that have already rebelled twice.

Demiurge4 fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Aug 16, 2018

# ? Aug 16, 2018 00:33

psydude: Apr 1, 2008

My endgame crisis started, but they're all just kind of chilling in three systems they immediately took over. Is there a console command to kickstart them so they can get to work cannibalizing the empire they're next to that I hate?

# ? Aug 16, 2018 00:38

Crazycryodude: Aug 15, 2015; Lets get our X tons of Duranium back!

....Is that still a valid thing to jingoistically blow out of proportion?

As is Stellaris tradition, the crises are currently broken. This specific time around, I think at least both the Scourge and the Contingency are bugged so that they never expand? Is it one of those two?

IIRC it's something about how the crisis AI decides when it needs to expand and when it needs to sit still and consolidate is currently in a state where it never expands because it always thinks it needs to consolidate regardless of its actual situation, so not something that's easily fixable via console.

Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Aug 16, 2018

# ? Aug 16, 2018 00:48

DrSunshine: Mar 23, 2009; Did I just say that out loud~~?!!!

Hmm, you know it would be kind of interesting if (available for those who have the Synthetic Dawn DLC) there was an option at some point for an empire that had synths and so on, to have a kind of decadence mechanic where you can transition / tag switch to being a full-on Rogue Servitors government.

# ? Aug 16, 2018 00:59

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

Crazycryodude posted:

As is Stellaris tradition, the crises are currently broken. This specific time around, I think at least both the Scourge and the Contingency are bugged so that they never expand? Is it one of those two?

IIRC it's something about how the crisis AI decides when it needs to expand and when it needs to sit still and consolidate is currently in a state where it never expands because it always thinks it needs to consolidate regardless of its actual situation, so not something that's easily fixable via console.

Last time I saw the Unbidden they did the exact same thing, it's probably all of them that are broken.

# ? Aug 16, 2018 01:00

binge crotching: Apr 2, 2010

DrSunshine posted:

Hmm, you know it would be kind of interesting if (available for those who have the Synthetic Dawn DLC) there was an option at some point for an empire that had synths and so on, to have a kind of decadence mechanic where you can transition / tag switch to being a full-on Rogue Servitors government.

I want this so much.

# ? Aug 16, 2018 01:06

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# ? Apr 25, 2024 02:58

Thrasophius: Oct 27, 2013

Nessus posted:

Individualist/Collectivist remains powerful.

winterwerefox posted:

I'm a fan of Fanatic Spiritualist/Authoritarian Empire. Get yourself imperial cult and cut throat politics. you will have a nice flow of influence and cheap edicts.

Thanks. That imperialist one actually sounds pretty good, I'll give that a try and see how it turns out. Lots of influence is always nice.

# ? Aug 16, 2018 01:34

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