Stellaris: a second Astral Planes has hit the game

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Stellaris: a second Astral Planes has hit the game

Eiba: Jul 26, 2007

Wiz posted:

There is a perfectly good gameplay choice present already that captures the themes of AI rights and rebellion (with even more significance to its effects under the new system). 'It's weird' is not a good enough reason to tear that up, and 'fix the balance' doesn't even mean anything. More options does not always make for better gameplay or more interesting choices.

Honestly, I'd rather tear up the good gameplay you've got, or give some other equally artificial bonus to oppressing robots, than see all my automated mining drones become conscious suffering beings just because I invented one sapient AI in a lab somewhere.

Having any sapient robots at all means you have to forgo automating drudgery. You can either avoid sapient robots or you have to have sapient beings doing drudgery in your mines. No other options. But ironically there's an optimal path of just... not getting synths and having unfeeling robot slaves forever. Synths aren't that big a gameplay bonus, especially if you have to suddenly deal with a proletariat again that was previously automated out of existence.

I love ya Wiz, and you're doing great work, but this is an incredibly bad feeling state of affairs, which feels much worse with the new class system.

Honestly, if you're worried about "optimal" gameplay being worker robot drones... why not just roll with it, but give alternatives. Have a economic system where you nerve staple your workers into being organic drones. Give the opportunity to everyone and let it shake out. Or something.

I'm not a game designer though. I'm in it for the roleplaying. I might not be who you're catering to, and mods will make me happy. But I really feel the nice gameplay trade off you've come up with is frustratingly artificial when you think about it, which makes it just feel bad rather than like a legitimate choice.

# ? Aug 16, 2018 01:48

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# ? Apr 19, 2024 15:32

Pacho: Jun 9, 2010

I thought it was kind of implied than even the most basic droid is a pretty complex autonomous AI doing the job a human/organic would otherwise do. A giant drill and maintenance drones are just equipment that both droids and organics would be in charge of in a given tile. The whole of point of a tile with a robot pop is that they are autonomous and intelligent enough to run a whole region without organic input

# ? Aug 16, 2018 01:48

THS: Sep 15, 2017

the game will be fine, the state of affairs is fine

# ? Aug 16, 2018 02:05

Crazycryodude: Aug 15, 2015; Lets get our X tons of Duranium back!

....Is that still a valid thing to jingoistically blow out of proportion?

Can't you just install restraining bolts on all your synths to turn them back into obedient slaves with one of the robomodding traits already? Like the silicon version of nerve stapling?

# ? Aug 16, 2018 02:14

Complications: Jun 19, 2014

Crazycryodude posted:

Can't you just install restraining bolts on all your synths to turn them back into obedient slaves with one of the robomodding traits already? Like the silicon version of nerve stapling?

The closest you get to that is loyalty circuits which adds 5% happiness and 50% government ethics attraction. There aren't any equivalents to nerve stapling for robots because I guess the Stellaris devs didn't foresee that particular variety of atrocity.

# ? Aug 16, 2018 02:27

DatonKallandor: Aug 21, 2009; "I can no longer sit back and allow nationalist shitposting, nationalist indoctrination, nationalist subversion, and the German nationalist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious game balance."

Yeah the incredibly advanced mining drones that aren't sentient but still really "smart" are already in the game if you want them to be. They might as well be Mine level 3. Stuff that makes industry better without big societal implications.

# ? Aug 16, 2018 02:42

psydude: Apr 1, 2008; Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.

Crazycryodude posted:

As is Stellaris tradition, the crises are currently broken. This specific time around, I think at least both the Scourge and the Contingency are bugged so that they never expand? Is it one of those two?

IIRC it's something about how the crisis AI decides when it needs to expand and when it needs to sit still and consolidate is currently in a state where it never expands because it always thinks it needs to consolidate regardless of its actual situation, so not something that's easily fixable via console.

Yep it's the Scourge. Kind of a bummer, too, because I haven't had a non-Contingency crisis in a while.

# ? Aug 16, 2018 02:58

Thrasophius: Oct 27, 2013

Just started a new game in 2.1. drat the performance sucks, what the hell happened? Are there any tweaks I can do?

# ? Aug 16, 2018 04:16

Kaal: May 22, 2002; through thousands of posts in D&D over a decade, I now believe I know what I'm talking about. if I post forcefully and confidently, I can convince others that is true. no one sees through my facade.

psydude posted:

Yep it's the Scourge. Kind of a bummer, too, because I haven't had a non-Contingency crisis in a while.

Apparently rolling back to 2.1.1 can fix the endgame issues.

# ? Aug 16, 2018 05:00

Crazycryodude: Aug 15, 2015; Lets get our X tons of Duranium back!

....Is that still a valid thing to jingoistically blow out of proportion?

Yeah it's only the most recent version that's got the brokebrained crisis, roll back to 2.1.1 and it should work, if not in this game then at least in future ones.

# ? Aug 16, 2018 08:41

Strategic Tea: Sep 1, 2012

Baronjutter posted:

I mean heck, you could even have a "decadence" system for late game empires. Your human pops that once pioneered the galaxy and now all pampered and no one has done physical work or endured any sort of hardship for generations because robots have done that, and now that there's better and better sapient AI, those humans aren't even bothering with science or culture anymore. What do you do at this point? Replace your lazy uncreative humans with synths? Accept that your empire's founding populations have become bio-trophies and officially switch to that gameplay mechanic? Restrict AI and get your humans back to work but face a potential AI uprising?

Well obviously you found the space CIA to uplift all the ghastly primitives without them noticing. But only after the espionage expansion.

:specialcircumstances:

# ? Aug 16, 2018 08:44

A_Spec: Nov 2, 2012

Baronjutter posted:

I mean heck, you could even have a "decadence" system for late game empires.

This is technically already in the game but it only affects the Awakened Empires. The more of vassals of their specific type, (Signatories, Thralls, ect) the weaker they get. This was covered in Dev Diary #85 (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-85-decadence-and-ascension-path-changes.1042779/) Part of 1.8 Čapek / Synthetic Dawn.

code:

We've added a new mechanic called Decadence for Awakened Empires. Decadence is effectively a meter, going from 0 to 100, that starts filling up for Awakened Empires once a
certain amount of time has passed since awakening. The larger they are (both in terms of owned planets and subjugated empires), the faster it builds up. Decadence reduces
Awakened Empire resource income and fleet power, and also increases the rebelliousness of their subjects, and has very large penalties at high levels of Decadence.

The functionality is there, though whether it can be modded (based on if it's an economic template or not) to apply to standard empires, or work like you'd want it is another question entirely.

And just to humour you; this is how it's defined in the script;

From the 00_Static_Modifiers file

code:

# Awakened Empires grow weaker over time
awakened_empire_decadence = {
	pop_resource_output_reduction = 0.66
	country_subject_power_penalty_mult = 2.0
	ship_weapon_damage = -0.25
	ship_hull_mult = -0.25
	ship_armor_mult = -0.25
	ship_shield_mult = -0.25

And from the 00_Defines File

code:


DECADENCE_START = 20	# After this many years of being awakened, an awakened empire will experience decadence
DECADENCE_CHANCE = 0.5	# Chance of decadence increasing each month (multiplied by total size of empire & subjects)
DECADENCE_INCREASE = 2	# How much does decadence increase per time?
DECADENCE_MAX = 100		# Max decadence

So it ''looks'' like it's totally modable, and there's a ton of decadence related items on the Workshop but I haven't got the slightest clue if any of them take the AE model and port them to a playable one.

A_Spec fucked around with this message at 11:03 on Aug 16, 2018

# ? Aug 16, 2018 10:13

Taear: Nov 26, 2004; Ask me about the shitty opinions I have about Paradox games!

Here's my extremely specific wish: that if I renamed a Star the station orbiting it would change name too.
It's really confusing for me at times.

(I know I can do it myself it's just a pain)

Taear fucked around with this message at 10:31 on Aug 16, 2018

# ? Aug 16, 2018 10:27

mctesticle: Sep 28, 2004

The 2.1.2 patch was updated this morning to fix the crisis problem.

Same version number, new checksum.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/dev-team-2-1-2-patch-is-now-live-checksum-5bcb.1113782/

# ? Aug 16, 2018 11:50

Psychotic Weasel: Jun 24, 2004; Bang! You're dead.

Wiz was also nice enough to post today's diary before I have to leave for work:

https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/1030055425184555009

That was nice of you Wiz, thanks!

# ? Aug 16, 2018 12:38

Gyshall: Feb 24, 2009; Had a couple of drinks.
Saw a couple of things.

Eiba posted:

Honestly, I'd rather tear up the good gameplay you've got, or give some other equally artificial bonus to oppressing robots, than see all my automated mining drones become conscious suffering beings just because I invented one sapient AI in a lab somewhere.

Having any sapient robots at all means you have to forgo automating drudgery. You can either avoid sapient robots or you have to have sapient beings doing drudgery in your mines. No other options. But ironically there's an optimal path of just... not getting synths and having unfeeling robot slaves forever. Synths aren't that big a gameplay bonus, especially if you have to suddenly deal with a proletariat again that was previously automated out of existence.

I love ya Wiz, and you're doing great work, but this is an incredibly bad feeling state of affairs, which feels much worse with the new class system.

Honestly, if you're worried about "optimal" gameplay being worker robot drones... why not just roll with it, but give alternatives. Have a economic system where you nerve staple your workers into being organic drones. Give the opportunity to everyone and let it shake out. Or something.

I'm not a game designer though. I'm in it for the roleplaying. I might not be who you're catering to, and mods will make me happy. But I really feel the nice gameplay trade off you've come up with is frustratingly artificial when you think about it, which makes it just feel bad rather than like a legitimate choice.

Also this update sounds amazing.

Gyshall fucked around with this message at 12:47 on Aug 16, 2018

# ? Aug 16, 2018 12:40

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

Taear posted:

Here's my extremely specific wish: that if I renamed a Star the station orbiting it would change name too.
It's really confusing for me at times.

(I know I can do it myself it's just a pain)

What? No! That would loving suck! ( I give all my stations special names completely separate from the star names. Your idea would mean that every time I want to rename a star, the game would automatically overwrite my custom names. That would suck )

# ? Aug 16, 2018 12:45

Aethernet: Jan 28, 2009; This is the Captain...

Our glorious political masters have, in their wisdom, decided to form an alliance with a rag-tag bunch of freedom fighters right when the Federation has us at a tactical disadvantage. Unsurprisingly, this has resulted in the Feds firing on our vessels...

Damn you Huxley!; Grimey Drawer

Psychotic Weasel posted:

Wiz was also nice enough to post today's diary before I have to leave for work:

https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/1030055425184555009

That was nice of you Wiz, thanks!

This does sound good. I'm looking forward to hearing how they'll make it clear that planets are where pops live their lives.

# ? Aug 16, 2018 12:46

A_Spec: Nov 2, 2012

Ye, this is a pretty massive dev diary. I find this little bit interesting.

quote:

For me, getting away from the constraints of tiles has been my single most desired long-term goal for the game. It's not that I think the tile system is inherently a bad system - it works well to visualize your pops and buildings and for the early game it works well enough in giving the player some interesting economic management decisions.

https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/740561853978431488

It's been two years since you became Game Director Wiz, have you been wanting to change it since then?

A_Spec fucked around with this message at 12:55 on Aug 16, 2018

# ? Aug 16, 2018 12:46

Taear: Nov 26, 2004; Ask me about the shitty opinions I have about Paradox games!

Libluini posted:

What? No! That would loving suck! ( I give all my stations special names completely separate from the star names. Your idea would mean that every time I want to rename a star, the game would automatically overwrite my custom names. That would suck )

I'm only ever renaming stars when I'm colonising so I expect the station (which is rarely updated by that point) to change name too.
Maybe just make it so un-upgraded stations change names.

Why are you renaming stars so much.

# ? Aug 16, 2018 12:52

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

A_Spec posted:

Ye, this is a pretty massive dev diary. I find this little bit interesting.

https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/740561853978431488

It's been two years since you became Game Director Wiz, have you been wanting to change it since then?

I've been wanting to change it since before the game came out. There were other things that were more important to do first, though. What I personally want the most doesn't always correspond to what's best for the game!

# ? Aug 16, 2018 13:10

Aethernet: Jan 28, 2009; This is the Captain...

Our glorious political masters have, in their wisdom, decided to form an alliance with a rag-tag bunch of freedom fighters right when the Federation has us at a tactical disadvantage. Unsurprisingly, this has resulted in the Feds firing on our vessels...

Damn you Huxley!; Grimey Drawer

A_Spec posted:

Ye, this is a pretty massive dev diary. I find this little bit interesting.

https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/740561853978431488

It's been two years since you became Game Director Wiz, have you been wanting to change it since then?

Surely you noticed that all adjacency bonuses were gradually being removed to eliminate any lingering game in the tilegame? :tinfoil:

# ? Aug 16, 2018 13:11

Psychotic Weasel: Jun 24, 2004; Bang! You're dead.

I miss my mineral silo checkerboard worlds

Oh well, I am eager to see how this new trade resource your clerks produce works since it sounds like trade is getting some love here,too. And what the new culture and entertainment resources do as well since pushing your borders is long a thing of the past.

# ? Aug 16, 2018 13:23

Beer4TheBeerGod: Aug 23, 2004; Exciting Lemon

Honestly I'm just grateful that the update isn't releasing this month. I have way too much to do.

# ? Aug 16, 2018 13:23

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Aethernet posted:

Surely you noticed that all adjacency bonuses were gradually being removed to eliminate any lingering game in the tilegame?

Honestly adjacency bonuses tended to, if anything, make the tile system even less interesting since it mostly just promoted monoresource planets.

# ? Aug 16, 2018 13:23

Chalks: Sep 30, 2009

I will not miss yellow triangle clicking simulator

# ? Aug 16, 2018 13:26

Thom12255: Feb 23, 2013; WHERE THE FUCK IS MY MONEY

Crazycryodude posted:

As is Stellaris tradition, the crises are currently broken. This specific time around, I think at least both the Scourge and the Contingency are bugged so that they never expand? Is it one of those two?

IIRC it's something about how the crisis AI decides when it needs to expand and when it needs to sit still and consolidate is currently in a state where it never expands because it always thinks it needs to consolidate regardless of its actual situation, so not something that's easily fixable via console.

Contingency spawned for me the other day and they did expand but also did the waiting in star systems thing. Eventually, they would decide to go somewhere. They took over 1/4 of the galaxy by the time I stopped.

# ? Aug 16, 2018 13:32

Thom12255: Feb 23, 2013; WHERE THE FUCK IS MY MONEY

Chalks posted:

I will not miss yellow triangle clicking simulator

It's a sin this game never had an auto-upgrade tick box for planets.

# ? Aug 16, 2018 13:32

Bloodly: Nov 3, 2008; Not as strong as you'd expect.

I wonder how this will play out. Will you actually have 'diversity' or will you be constrained even more?

# ? Aug 16, 2018 13:40

AAAAA! Real Muenster: Jul 12, 2008; My QB is also named Bort

Chalks posted:

I will not miss yellow triangle clicking simulator

Amen, brother.

# ? Aug 16, 2018 13:49

KOGAHAZAN!!: Apr 29, 2013; a miserable failure as a person

an incredible success as a magical murder spider

Bloodly posted:

I wonder how this will play out. Will you actually have 'diversity' or will you be constrained even more?

Well, a lot of the buildings we've seen so far seem to be of the form "provides 1 job of type x for every y infrastructure". To me that sounds like an incentive to concentrate all those facilities on worlds with maxed infra (meaning, probably, 100% city district worlds) and reserve the building slots on other worlds for those buildings that don't scale. Which I think would push the player to a mix of heavily industrialised ecumenopoleis and sparsely populated basic resource worlds with as little in between as they can get away with. Which would still be an improvement over the current setup!

(e: Actually, I think a system that favours highly distinct types is going to feel better than one where everything is on a spectrum)

But, uh, there's a lot of unknowns here. :shrug:

Anyway, good DD, may tiles rest in hell.

KOGAHAZAN!! fucked around with this message at 14:03 on Aug 16, 2018

# ? Aug 16, 2018 14:01

canepazzo: May 29, 2006

My absolute favourite part of the DD is "part 1 of 4"

# ? Aug 16, 2018 14:14

ConfusedUs: Feb 24, 2004; Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!

My favorite part is the all of it.

Especially the hints at trade routes.

# ? Aug 16, 2018 14:34

isndl: May 2, 2012; I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

canepazzo posted:

My absolute favourite part of the DD is "part 1 of 4"

Monday launch confirmed?! :dance:

# ? Aug 16, 2018 14:34

genericnick: Dec 26, 2012

canepazzo posted:

My absolute favourite part of the DD is "part 1 of 4"

Release in exactly one month!1!!111

# ? Aug 16, 2018 14:36

Aethernet: Jan 28, 2009; This is the Captain...

Our glorious political masters have, in their wisdom, decided to form an alliance with a rag-tag bunch of freedom fighters right when the Federation has us at a tactical disadvantage. Unsurprisingly, this has resulted in the Feds firing on our vessels...

Damn you Huxley!; Grimey Drawer

ConfusedUs posted:

My favorite part is the all of it.

Especially the hints at trade routes.

This is genuinely the part I'm most excited about too. The trading system in EUIV is a thing of beauty, especially how it evolves in importance over the course of the game. I'm not expecting anything quite so complex, but an analogy more suitable for the setting of Stellaris would be brilliant.

# ? Aug 16, 2018 14:39