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gears melt steel beams
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Aug 17, 2018 08:30
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| # ? Apr 26, 2024 17:01 |
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:also combos are an insanely alien concept coming from any other genre. most games test you on execution in much more fluid ways -- you can shoot at something in an FPS and miss but you don't have to remember to draw a complex sigil with your mouse where the timing, angle, and length of the strokes all have to fall within certain parameters in order to make your gun shoot at all lmao you just described counterstrike's spray patterns
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Aug 17, 2018 10:43
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The Hori PS4 official RAP Hyabusa? Is it a half-decent stick? I bought it because it had 'rap' in the name.
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Aug 17, 2018 10:48
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In Training posted:Remember when people derisively called SFIV players 08ers when they got into the FGC. Do people say 18er or like 16er for SFV players. the 16ers took Mike Ross from us
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Aug 17, 2018 10:50
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Every competitive game is full of counter intuitive bullshit, you just can't go into a command list or trials so people don't get mad about stuff they can't (and probably don't need to) do.
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Aug 17, 2018 10:50
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Arzachel posted:Every competitive game is full of counter intuitive bullshit, you just can't go into a command list or trials so people don't get mad about stuff they can't (and probably don't need to) do. the relevant comparison isn't "fighting games vs. other deep and relatively arcane competitive games" -- although even by that standard they frontload it more through their presentation and because there's not really anything else to do in a fighting game it's fighting games vs. literally anything that a new player in a fighting game might have played before, anything that might have shaped their expectations of what a game asks you to do i probably should have quoted Zand directly but this is what i was responding to: Zand posted:is there another genre of game other than fgs where people over the age of 10 relentlessly mash the buttons instead of even pretending to try and the answer is "yes, absolutely; almost all of them"
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Aug 17, 2018 11:13
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:also combos are an insanely alien concept coming from any other genre. most games test you on execution in much more fluid ways -- you can shoot at something in an FPS and miss but you don't have to remember to draw a complex sigil with your mouse where the timing, angle, and length of the strokes all have to fall within certain parameters in order to make your gun shoot at all I don't think it's any more alien than the concept of "actions-per-minute" for people who are not into competitive RTS. APM is more or less useless metric for the first 5 minutes of a Starcraft match, but in the mid/late game it's a pretty accurate gauge of your ability to micro/macro simultaneously. Building up your speed/APM is much like the process of learning combos, you just have to grind it out. You can't just decide to start clicking more, which does nothing if those clicks are not economic and doing the right things.
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Aug 17, 2018 12:21
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exquisite tea posted:I think the vast majority of people who buy fighting games even today probably only screw around in the SP modes or play with their friends rather than online ranked MP, for the games that have SP content. I've tried both for hundreds of hours now. Yes, without a doubt the latter is absolutely the way to quickly find your weaknesses and improve and adapt to netplay timing and gain matchup knowledge. But it's also a completely disjunct grind where the outcome is entirely predictable for months and doesn't actually include most of the aspects that most players enjoy in the former. obviously that's far from a fg specific thing. SC2 singleplayer campaigns and 1v1 competitive ladder matches are both fun for very different reasons and require very different approaches, so of course they'll have very different audiences who'll both tell you theirs is "the only real way to play". And that's a f2p game with the population to sustain actual elo-matchmaking across more than the very top die-hard skill bracket. RoadCrewWorker fucked around with this message at 12:29 on Aug 17, 2018 |
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Aug 17, 2018 12:26
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Double Bill posted:I don't think it's any more alien than the concept of "actions-per-minute" for people who are not into competitive RTS. APM is more or less useless metric for the first 5 minutes of a Starcraft match, but in the mid/late game it's a pretty accurate gauge of your ability to micro/macro simultaneously. Building up your speed/APM is much like the process of learning combos, you just have to grind it out. You can't just decide to start clicking more, which does nothing if those clicks are not economic and doing the right things. you know i was sitting here wondering "why is everyone who reads that post coming away with exactly the wrong lesson" and i went back and read it myself and realized i said "combo" instead of "inputs" i think it's still mostly true of combos but taking a step back might make it clearer maximizing APM is something that comes after you've learned to control your units. the basic move/attack/build functions that you perform in an RTS are extremely simple and they operate in a UI that is basically the same as navigating the desktop of your computer (something that is also extremely alien to people who have never done it, it's just that most people have). the process of improvement is almost entirely learning to do it faster and with less concentration on any individual part fighting games on the other hand:
it's not that fighting games are harder or easier to master because of this, it's not that nobody ever approaches them with the right mindset or that they're doomed to unpopularity or any of that it's just that the amount of game that is accessible to someone who hasn't yet grasped the esoteric parts is vastly smaller compared to any other genre
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Aug 17, 2018 12:52
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it's the reason that Blazblue is a visual novel that happens to come bundled with a fighting game -- that's an attempt at a solution to this problem
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Aug 17, 2018 12:53
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I believe a lot of people cargo-cult combos/setups (e:even inputs; 623 is a Z motion but is commonly seen as 6, 2, 3) in the same way an old person that doesn't know how to use a computer well has a ritual for getting to their email. They don't see the connection between each action and so think it's an arbitrary set of things you have to do to get a result. When I used to play Guild Wars 2 there was a small period of time where you had to play one type of character basically as a stance (5 different weapons) switching character to be effective. To many people the rotation you had to do for this character looked like a long string of unrelated key presses like you were doing drills for Mavis Beacon, but if you saw how each action was connected and when to change "stance", it was easy to remember. It was no different than remembering a few chain routes.
Poniard fucked around with this message at 13:23 on Aug 17, 2018 |
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Aug 17, 2018 13:16
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:you know i was sitting here wondering "why is everyone who reads that post coming away with exactly the wrong lesson" and i went back and read it myself and realized i said "combo" instead of "inputs" I kinda feel like you're mindgaming yourself at this point because fighting games share the same exact control scheme as 2d platformers with a couple extra punch/kick buttons. Sure, you don't do dp motions when playing super mario, but you sure as heck don't stutter step your folders either.
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Aug 17, 2018 13:17
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Arzachel posted:I kinda feel like you're mindgaming yourself at this point because fighting games share the same exact control scheme as 2d platformers with a couple extra punch/kick buttons. Sure, you don't do dp motions when playing super mario, but you sure as heck don't stutter step your folders either. "You don't do DP motions when playing super mario" is precisely the point, though.
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Aug 17, 2018 13:20
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You do shoryukens and DPs in some Mega Man and Castlevania games
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Aug 17, 2018 13:20
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Poniard posted:I believe a lot of people cargo-cult combos/setups in the same way an old person that doesn't know how to use a computer well has a ritual for getting to their email. They don't see the connection between each action and so think it's an arbitrary set of things you have to do to get a result. This is close to what I'm trying to articulate, except I would add that I'm not sure it's such a bad thing. Knowing the pieces that went into a setup is occasionally helpful but it's actually good to be able to think of it as a single thing you can deploy at will, to think of it as a ritual. You don't want to be wasting brainpower on the component parts when you're under pressure.
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Aug 17, 2018 13:25
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To expand on that, I meant "ritual" as in a magic ritual where you would read out of a spell book and prepare eye of newt, and none of the steps were really connected, so it takes concentration to do each step.
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Aug 17, 2018 13:29
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:"You don't do DP motions when playing super mario" is precisely the point, though. And mine is that you don't really need to know how to dp when you're picking up a fighting game for the first time either, especially if you're playing something like street fighter.
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Aug 17, 2018 13:29
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Arzachel posted:And mine is that you don't really need to know how to dp when you're picking up a fighting game for the first time either, especially if you're playing something like street fighter. The amount of things you can do in Street Fighter without knowing how to do a DP (or half-circle, or whatever) is tiny and very repetitive compared to the number of things you can do without crossing a comparable threshold in StarCraft.
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Aug 17, 2018 13:31
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The only mechanics dp and super motions generally gate in fighting games is invincible wakeup. You'll lose some damage but that's the least of worries when starting out.
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Aug 17, 2018 13:36
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:"You don't do DP motions when playing super mario" is precisely the point, though. pretend i posted mario's movelist from dongdong never die here, I can't find it.
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Aug 17, 2018 13:39
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As someone who is making a genuine effort to learn fighting games I really appreciate this discussion. I’ve been getting into a lot of YouTube stuff about the psychology, design, history of fgs and other intangibles and it’s all very fascinating to me. I could listen to it forever. btw I’ve broken 10 wins in T7 online. Feels good. Definitely thanks to you all being so helpful and clear in your advice. 
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Aug 17, 2018 13:41
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:"You don't do DP motions when playing super mario" is precisely the point, though. I do DP motions all the time on 
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Aug 17, 2018 13:42
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Mario games have 360 throws in them.
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Aug 17, 2018 13:42
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Back in Zand's day people went to typing classes because typing on a QWERTY layout was not a routine thing. When FPSs became a thing it took a while for people to find a convention for moving around. Thing is, those things are common now. Hell, FPS on a controller is common now. Fighting game motions aren't. When they're invoked outside of fighting games, it's either a reference to them or an advanced technique that just so happens to match a FG motion. I don't think that's a reach, I think it's quite obvious and why people end up "mashing" or asking for simplified inputs.
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Aug 17, 2018 13:44
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Arzachel posted:The only mechanics dp and super motions generally gate in fighting games is invincible wakeup. You'll lose some damage but that's the least of worries when starting out. Not getting damage is a HUGE gate. Losing access to a defensive option is another HUGE gate. It's like missing half your shots in an FPS or having doubled cooldowns. This is why people have trouble...and that's fine, is how fighting games work. gently caress, IAD in GG probably explains why most people don't even touch it. Again, I'm not saying it's something that NEEDS fixing or solving, but c'mon, there's a reason why the genre is niche and it's not just people being weak bitches or whatever.
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Aug 17, 2018 13:50
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I spent every day for like a week trying to do Johnny's corner combo with 3 mist cancelled dusts once and then I went to play tekken anyway lmao
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Aug 17, 2018 13:56
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All fighting games come down to some combination of decision-making & execution, with the exact balance between the two determining what particular flavor of fighter it is. Execution is very important but it can't take the place of being able to read a situation in real time, this is how you end up with people who know how to dial in one 40% combo but can't guard against air. I think for absolute beginners the most important skill to develop, besides like, knowing what all the buttons do, is how to control neutral. Think constantly about "how can I safely get in that first hit" and use that one question to guide all their decision-making, what strings to practice, what's safe versus unsafe, what the other player is going to do to control neutral against them, etc.
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Aug 17, 2018 14:13
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Dias posted:Not getting damage is a HUGE gate. Losing access to a defensive option is another HUGE gate. It's like missing half your shots in an FPS or having doubled cooldowns. This is why people have trouble...and that's fine, is how fighting games work. Gate for what, winning? You're going to spent a good while just trying to do stuff deliberately, might as well skip grinding special motions when you won't be able to use them well anyways. For context, SFV was the first fighting game I put effort into. Blocking/punishing (mostly with throws) and anti airing (poorly) took me up to silver where I had to learn a simple link combo and baby's first meaty/throw oki which took me up to gold. I burned out on the game before I learned to consistently combo into super and never even bothered to use vtrigger at all.
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Aug 17, 2018 14:15
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I don't have anything to add here but I agree with Tuxedo Catfish on basically everything tho. It's not a bad thing tho and no one is trying to say it is. It's all kinda inherent to the genre.
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Aug 17, 2018 14:21
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I don't think the execution barrier is as big a turnoff as some people seem to believe. puyo has almost zero dexterity requirements but when it comes to making babbys first 5 chain people in this very thread have balked and gone "yeah this game is not for me" far before reaching the competitive baseline of 12 chain in less than 30secs most people just don't have the will to improve in fighting games, and fighting games are pretty terrible at nurturing the drive to persevere. I think that's a big part of why rising thunder and fantasy strike didn't make much headway. they fixed the dexterity requirement but kept the rest of the genre skeleton the same
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Aug 17, 2018 14:46
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It's because stuff that's considered "hard" and still popular are usually primarily single player games or have single player elements. People don't mind losing to a computer but they do mind losing to a person. Dark Souls is "hard" but it's not bullshit until you're invaded and a real person is the one that kills you. That's why every subsequent Dark Souls game made it harder and harder to invade people successfully, because most players hate having their death caused by something they can't predict.
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Aug 17, 2018 14:57
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I mean trying to do a basic BnB on milia in gg broke me. The iad input is ridiculous. I settled on Raven after months of not playing.
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Aug 17, 2018 15:06
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Millia getting nerfed 3 times in a row is what broke me personally
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Aug 17, 2018 15:09
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im stickin with faust forever even if he got nerfed into oblivion because he is just a great character
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Aug 17, 2018 15:13
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I have a friend who used to buy every fighting game that came out and, no matter how low the execution requirement was, refuse to do any training mode stuff or go through tutorials then complain when I did practice and would beat him with even the most basic combos. He would do this with pretty much every fighting game for awhile. He and I talked about it before and he would constantly say he loves fighting games but hates combos, frame data stuff, cancels, strings, anything "unintuitive" like hit boxes, etc. I'm pretty sure he, and a bunch of other people, like the idea of fighting games but hate actually doing anything that would make you better in the game other than just jamming buttons into other people jamming buttons. Which is definitely fair, I don't expect everyone to enjoy going into training mode and spending 30 minutes or so working on setups or combos or whatever before playing online sometimes. But people that feel that way should probably be realistic about just not really liking fighting games then! He's super pumped for SCVI since it, apparently, SC doesn't have any of those things so it's a way more fair fighting game according to him. So I'll probably buy it as well, practice up, and then he'll eventually give up and the cycle will repeat unbroken till the end of time.
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Aug 17, 2018 15:16
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Your friend is not going to be happy approximately 48 hours after SC6's release
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Aug 17, 2018 15:23
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SC hasn't historically been a very technical fighter but you'll still get destroyed if you don't know how to use guard impact or throw out unsafe moves all the time, same as any other game.
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Aug 17, 2018 15:25
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Dan Didio posted:The Hori PS4 official RAP Hyabusa? Is it a half-decent stick? I bought it because it had 'rap' in the name. I really like mine.
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Aug 17, 2018 15:27
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As soon as he's hit with Astaroth's dumb bullshit. I mean, that was my experience with SC2, lol.
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Aug 17, 2018 15:28
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| # ? Apr 26, 2024 17:01 |
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That's when you pick Ivy and grab his fat rear end out of the sky.
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Aug 17, 2018 15:34
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