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Barry Bonds would have been the greatest baseball player of all time if he had never juiced as long as Ken Griffey Jr kept breaking himself. If Griffey hadn't broken himself Bonds would have had to settle for the second best of all time.
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Aug 15, 2018 02:55
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Kim Jong Il posted:Looks like that was an arbitration, which is almost always not going to work out well for the union. I dunno if they would have made the same paper trail that's possible with today's technology MLB got busted, in arbitration, for colluding against free agents repeatedly in the 1980s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball_collusion
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Aug 15, 2018 05:57
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Shrapnig posted:Barry Bonds would have been the greatest baseball player of all time if he had never juiced as long as Ken Griffey Jr kept breaking himself. If Griffey hadn't broken himself Bonds would have had to settle for the second best of all time. 
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Aug 15, 2018 13:34
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What I find most impressive about Barry is that he managed to abuse his wife and child at the same time, and it's probably before he even started juicing! You don't find two way superstars like that very often
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Aug 15, 2018 13:40
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https://local.theonion.com/man-always-gets-little-rush-out-of-telling-people-john-1819578998
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Aug 15, 2018 15:33
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Ah yes, universally beloved Barry Bonds (outside of SAS). Exactly the same 
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Aug 15, 2018 15:36
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Popete posted:https://local.theonion.com/man-always-gets-little-rush-out-of-telling-people-john-1819578998 Another reason McCartney was always the best beatle.
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Aug 15, 2018 16:00
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NiceGuy posted:Ah yes, universally beloved Barry Bonds (outside of SAS). Exactly the same If John Lennon was still alive, he'd be a gigantic trainwreck/punchline. He'd have his own equivalent of the Crying Jordan meme and everything.
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Aug 15, 2018 20:47
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If John Lennon wasn't shot he'd almost certainly be dead now anyway, probably still the first Beatle to go too 
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Aug 15, 2018 20:53
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NiceGuy posted:If John Lennon wasn't shot he'd almost certainly be dead now anyway, probably still the first Beatle to go too It's a miracle George lived as long as he did given how much he smoked
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Aug 15, 2018 20:54
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I do want to say people seem to forget it was nearly impossible for a black man to become hugely successful in the 80s/90s without someone trying to destroy his personal image by exploiting the public image of black men as a demographic. Like I get Bonds was an rear end in a top hat, but a different flavor of poo poo was flung at Michael Jackson for the same reasons. (I’m not responding to any responses on this, I just wanted to say my opinion and now leave the soapbox.) Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Aug 15, 2018 |
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Aug 15, 2018 20:56
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Craptacular! posted:Like I get Bonds was an rear end in a top hat, but a different flavor of poo poo was flung at Michael Jackson for the same reasons. Actually, I feel like it was pretty different reasons
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Aug 15, 2018 21:08
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Craptacular! posted:Like I get Bonds was an rear end in a top hat, but a different flavor of poo poo was flung at Michael Jackson for the same reasons.  So do you think Sun Bonds was like, lying orrrrrr fake edit: oh right you're not responding, well thats good because your position is dumb as gently caress and i fear you may continue to restate it
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Aug 16, 2018 19:13
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NiceGuy posted:
I didn’t say any specific woman was lying, but there were multiple women, and the steroid trial led into it. And a black man who has come into a lot of money and the public wants to destroy for steroids, it’s not unsurprising when you can find a line of women talking about his violent behavior. The government directly blamed his treatment of Kimberly Bell on steroid use, saying some outlandish stories (such as Bonds “threatening to rip [Bell’s] breast implants out”) was entirely due to steroids, and that this wouldn’t happen if he hadn’t been juicing. Abused women was literally part of a government prosecution to take the guy down. And the largely white sports-media and it’s white audience was happy to watch him take the fall, because they had already used all the dogwhistles they use on Black athletes who are really good but don’t show the humility white people think they’re required to. I don’t remember who wrote it, but I remember seeing once in a Bonds article: You can be black, you can be good, you can be cocky, but you can only be two at once.
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Aug 17, 2018 07:05
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Craptacular! posted:I didn’t say any specific woman was lying, but there were multiple women, and the steroid trial led into it. And a black man who has come into a lot of money and the public wants to destroy for steroids, it’s not unsurprising when you can find a line of women talking about his violent behavior. So people hate Bonds for being black, and that somehow made women accuse him of abuse. Jesus shut the gently caress up dude, I'd admit as much as anyone that Bonds took a bunch of poo poo for his skin color but this is decidedly not that. Curiously enough, most well-adjusted adults don't care what the purported reason for abuse was. Not to mention the countless other athletes who have roided up and managed to not beat the gently caress out of their wife and kid. I bet you think Chris Brown was persecuted too
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Aug 17, 2018 12:48
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Remember that time David Ortiz got named in the Mitchell Report and then it came out that he was a horrible domestic abusing monster? Me neither
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Aug 17, 2018 12:54
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https://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/article/4845/baseball-between-the-numbers-what-do-statistics-tell-us-about-steroids/quote:By this definition, Power Spikes have been neither any more nor When you account for park and league effects, the power spike during the period when Bonds was setting records and a lot of other players had home run rate spikes (94-04) compared to the previous era (86-93) of baseball is basically the same thing statistically that has happened during various eras in baseball history. tadashi fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Aug 17, 2018 |
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Aug 17, 2018 14:01
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There were 2,000 more homers in 2017 than 2014, and 700 more in 2017 than 2001. But since no one player is hitting 60-70, people will happily conclude that steroids and steroids alone explain Barry Bonds, and that the reason no one hits that many homers any more isn't because no one else is as good as the best player ever, but because no one takes steroids.
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Aug 17, 2018 14:36
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I'm torn on how much steroids help because on the one hand only Bonds did what Bonds did so clearly that wasn't all or even mostly steroids but on the other you've got people like Greg Vaughn and Brady Anderson having 50 home run seasons. So what the hell
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Aug 17, 2018 14:55
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Ginette Reno posted:I'm torn on how much steroids help because on the one hand only Bonds did what Bonds did so clearly that wasn't all or even mostly steroids but on the other you've got people like Greg Vaughn and Brady Anderson having 50 home run seasons. So what the hell Statistical outliers happen all the time, though. MLB players are freak athletes compared to the general population. Home runs are just one metric to measure outliers, too. Darin Erstad had a .951 OPS in 2000 for a 137 OPS+ but never made it back to the 100 OPS+ plateau again. Plenty of players have the potential to be good, they just don't have the consistency to be good.
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Aug 17, 2018 15:04
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tadashi posted:Statistical outliers happen all the time, though. MLB players are freak athletes compared to the general population. Of course, but it's just you don't often see those random monster home run years any more. At least not from scrubs. Maybe the balls were juiced too in the 90s, or other explanations exist. I wonder how much analytics are suppressing numbers. Pitchers have more data than ever to figure out how to get hitters out. And teams know better than ever how to defend. Baseball is so data driven now and teams know exactly what they need to do to have success. That has to have an impact on things. Though I guess you can say hitters have the same data, and are altering their swings/approaches to go for dingers more than ever, so maybe in some sense it balances out.
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Aug 17, 2018 15:07
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Also in Vaughn's case he was always a guy who hit for power, grouping him with Anderson isn't totally fair. He had a rough year before hitting 50, but the year before that, he hit 41, and he'd hit 30 a couple years before that, I think his case was more that he was a big guy who was inconsistent.
El Gallinero Gros fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Aug 17, 2018 |
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Aug 17, 2018 15:33
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Ginette Reno posted:Of course, but it's just you don't often see those random monster home run years any more. At least not from scrubs. Maybe the balls were juiced too in the 90s, or other explanations exist. That's what I'm saying. Brady Anderson wasn't a scrub. Dean Palmer was smaller (by weight but the same height) than he was and he had multiple 35+ HR seasons during that span. If I'm not mistaken, 1996 is one of the years that baseball writers love to unpack when they're short on ideas just because it's so packed with "Can you believe this guy did this?" moments. Terry Steinbach hit 36 HR after being a 10-15 guy his whole career. 1996 marked a career high in HR for a bunch of players and a lot of players were in their peak seasons for HR. It's a really fun year to fall down the rabbit hole for.
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Aug 17, 2018 15:46
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El Gallinero Gros posted:Also in Vaughn's case he was always a guy who hit for power, grouping him with Anderson isn't totally fair. He had a rough year before hitting 50, but the year before that, he hit 41, and he'd hit 30 a couple years before that, I think his case was more that he was a big guy who was inconsistent. Yeah, that's probably fair. It's just funny to go back to the 90's/early 2000's and find random dudes who mashed a bunch of dingers for a very brief time period and couldn't do it again. You see a lot of suspect looking jumps from year to year. For example, Shawn Green jumping from 24 homers one season to 49 the next. Albert Belle averaging in the mid 30s for a few years and then suddenly 50 and 48 dingers. Luis Gonzalez randomly hitting 57 homers at age 33 and never topping 40 again. There were some weird rear end seasons in the 90's/early 2000s. tadashi posted:That's what I'm saying. Brady Anderson wasn't a scrub. Dean Palmer was smaller (by weight but the same height) than he was and he had multiple 35+ HR seasons during that span. This is a fun trip down memory lane: https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/HR_top_ten.shtml. I keep looking at and going wait player [x] hit 40+ home runs that one year? I totally forgot about that.
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Aug 17, 2018 15:49
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But even Roger Maris went from 39 to 61 to 33. Someone does that in the 90s and every golden age worshiper immediately shrieks "nope doesn't count, steroids"
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Aug 17, 2018 15:53
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NiceGuy posted:Curiously enough, most well-adjusted adults don't care what the purported reason for abuse was. Not to mention the countless other athletes who have roided up and managed to not beat the gently caress out of their wife and kid. I’m not saying Bonds never abused any women; the Sun Bonds story is from 1995, before Bonds began working with Greg Anderson. But some of the horrific stories, including graphic threats of murder, came as a result of an ex’s testimony to help a federal prosecutor lock him up on an unrelated matter. And if you think prosecutors don’t coach witnesses to embellish stories and twist details without getting themselves in trouble, I don’t know what to tell you. My point was some of the worst domestic abuse stuff was part of an effort to destroy the man’s reputation for fighting perjury charges, from an overzealous prosecution that desperately wanted to be The Guys Who Jailed Barry Bonds. I got the events somewhat confused when I made my first post because there was more than one time accusations have been made, and some of them weren’t related to the circus. And no I didn’t think Chris Brown was being unfairly persecuted, because Rihanna isn’t white. If that was the conclusion you reached then you missed the whole point. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Aug 17, 2018 |
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Aug 17, 2018 16:02
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Craptacular! posted:The countless other roided athletes who aren’t abusers would actually disprove the government’s argument in having Kimberly Bell tell abuse stories. Bonds being a piece of poo poo domestic abuser is a completely different argument from Bonds being a piece of poo poo cheater, and I'm not sure why you try to keep lumping them together. quote:I’m not saying Bonds never abused any women; the Sun Bonds story is from 1995, before Bonds began working with Greg Anderson. But some of the horrific stories, including graphic threats of murder, came as a result of an ex’s testimony to help a federal prosecutor lock him up on an unrelated matter. My dude, I just read that article and lol it really doesn't paint the picture you so vigorously claim. You can't just scan for the word 'golddigger' in an article and then claim that proves the victim has ulterior motives. Sounds an awful lot like poisoning the well to me. quote:And if you think prosecutors don’t coach witnesses to embellish stories and twist details without getting themselves in trouble, I don’t know what to tell you. Tell me something that's actually substantive about race w/r/t Bond's domestic abuse. Because you haven't, you just projected on everyone, including the woman crying on the witness stand. quote:And no I didn’t think Chris Brown was being unfairly persecuted, because Rihanna isn’t white. If that was the conclusion you reached then you missed the whole point. So by this logic, Chris Brown would have been unfairly persecuted if Rihanna was white?  The conclusion I've come to is that you've conflated two separate issues and don't care because SIR BARROLD
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Aug 17, 2018 17:15
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I feel I have to reiterate that Barry Bonds was absolutely 100% poo poo on constantly for being a successful black man, there's absolutely no denying that. I'm just saying that it doesn't enter into the domestic violence stuff.
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Aug 17, 2018 17:19
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man what a weird and non-ped-taking coincidence that MLB had six 63+ home run seasons in a 4 year period and 0 of those seasons before or since
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Aug 17, 2018 17:29
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Yeah I'm not sure I buy into it just being statistical outliers when you're talking about multiple guys hitting 60+ homeruns. It's just not a thing you see happen anymore or before that time. For the record I don't have strong opinions about the steroid players, they definitely don't deserve as much ire as they have drawn and the league clearly thew them under the bus.
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Aug 17, 2018 17:34
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Didn't they do something to the balls around that time too that led to increased offense?
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Aug 17, 2018 17:56
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CubsWoo posted:man what a weird and non-ped-taking coincidence that MLB had six 63+ home run seasons in a 4 year period and 0 of those seasons before or since did players stop taking them?
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Aug 17, 2018 17:58
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my conspiracy theorist take is that MLB turned a blind eye to PEDs after the strike in an effort to drive up offense and return fan interest but after 4 years of Dingermania they decided to crack down again since Bonds was hitting 73 and Sosa was averaging over 60 homers a year from 98-01 today I think we see more home runs because of an increase in attempting to pitch and hit to the three true outcomes more than anything else, HRs are up but so are Ks and BBs and even with the 700+ more home runs in 2017 vs. 2001 total runs per game are actually down Interesting fact: Prior to the 1995 strike there are only 2 years on record where teams averaged 1.0 or more home runs per game (1994, 1.03 and 1987, 1.06) Since the 1996 season, 18 of the 22 seasons (and it'll be 19 of 23 once 2018 is done) have been above 1.0 HR/game and the lowest HR/game average of 0.86 in 2014 would only be worse than 13 pre-strike years CubsWoo fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Aug 17, 2018 |
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Aug 17, 2018 18:28
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NiceGuy posted:Stuff Look, people go through lovely breakups, but yeah I kind of have a skepticism the tales that got spun on the witness stand for no reason other than to make the defendant look bad. The only relevance to the actual case was “we think juicing made him violent where he otherwise wouldn’t be”, which is bullshit because there’s a lot of juicers without DV stories. I didn’t check the date of the article I originally quoted when I first posted, but the steroid trials are more fresh in my mind and yes they were using his ex to come in and give details about how he was a raging lunatic with tiny balls as punishment for not taking a plea bargain on perjury charges that were eventually thrown out. He wasn’t on trial for domestic assault. I know it doesn’t vibe with the Sympathize With The Woman Always motto that’s in fashion, but I’ll go ahead and admit I have greater skepticism for white women accusing black men of victimizing them, if you can admit the whole point of that testimony had very little to do with whether Bonds knowingly took The Clear and a lot more to do with ruining his public image. If you can’t see it, it doesn’t matter, because I can’t explain to you any more how it was less about justice and more about petty vengeance. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Aug 17, 2018 |
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Aug 17, 2018 19:33
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I think it's pretty clear that steroids have more of an impact when it comes to extending someone's peak than some sort of do Winstrol = hit dingers equation. I think Bonds' later years had more to do with the fact that as he got older, he got smarter and his body didn't break down on him. Pretty much the same thing with Clemens. I've read a few studies that have gone around that show as you age, your reaction time drops but your experience helps you compensate for that drop. I read one somewhere on typing that as people age, they type slower, but they make fewer typos because their muscle memory helps them cue up the correct letters in words more effectively. I imagine if you're someone like Bonds, who was almost supernaturally good at baseball, being able to compensate for a diminished reaction time while diminishing the impact of aging is what enabled him to be so amazing in his 30s. That said, I don't really care who used or didn't. The fact the drugs are illegal is a problem because it means they can't be done safely or even researched that much. That's more of a problem than an adult choosing to put something in their bodies for a possible improvement to their performance.
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Aug 17, 2018 21:15
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Bonds is very much a complicated situation in the history of baseball because strictly as a player I thought he was tremendous. He was also 1. A piece of poo poo woman abuser 2. A cheater at baseball 3. Unfairly treated by the media because of his race and his attitude 4. Probably the greatest baseball player of all time 5. Blackballed and colluded by the owners I do also think it’s ridiculous to stay steroids had no effect at him maintaining his body into his 30s. Steroids won’t make a contact hitter into a slugger. But it can definitely help a player recover from injury and start slugging again faster.
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Aug 17, 2018 21:43
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Steroids absolutely had an affect on maintaining his body into his 30s because thats what steroids do. The idea that all steroid users are jacked up goons is from early 90s TV. It's for repairing muscle in order to work out more in order to become a jacked up goon, like Barry did. The silver lining is literally all players who maintain elite level play well past the time a body should start showing diminished returns on exercise are juicing.
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Aug 17, 2018 21:53
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I like the story where bonds' college teammates tried to vote him off the team because he was an rear end in a top hat. It seems to me that while he did take a lot of poo poo because he was a successful black athlete, that didn't somehow turn him into a dick. He was always an rear end in a top hat. The spotlight just made it more apparent to everyone.
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Aug 17, 2018 22:13
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You are a huge dipshit.
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Aug 18, 2018 01:53
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Craptacular! posted:If you can’t see it, it doesn’t matter, because I can’t explain to you any more how it was less about justice and more about petty vengeance. whether it did or didn't, it doesn't change the fact that it made it a matter of public record, so that it is more apparent to us, the blind rube, that he's a piece of poo poo not worth adulating
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Aug 18, 2018 05:20
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