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We still don't know all the moving parts, but I've got a few knee-jerk fears about the new system. What killed me about the old system, specially sectors, was the idea that something somewhere might not be optimized and I didn't even know about it. Maybe that +10% energy robot is working on a mine, and the +15% minerals very strong race is working on a research tile while a +10% physics dude is working a mine. If the new system auto-sorts pops nearly flawlessly I'll love it. In the civilization series I'd almost never manually assign my pops, they'd auto-assign them perfectly to maximize what ever you wanted. Some buttons like that would be great to maximize food, energy, minerals, science, unity, balanced and so on. Workers get sorted and you get the optimal output for the chosen type, or "balanced" which tries to optimise everything. That's fine. I just don't want this to be a old sector situation where we can watch an AI making really bad choices and not do anything about it. I'm not entirely sold on the way pop growth works as some sort of weighted round-robin. If Earth has 20 human pops and suddenly a single blog moves in, as I understand it the system will heavily favour only adding additional blog pops if all rights are equal. Maybe I'm not understanding the system, but it seems odd that the humans, who massively outnumber the single blorg, would not preserve that general ratio if both are reproducing at the same rate. There should only be 2 blorg pops by the time there's 40 human pops. Outside of immigration pressures, why should that ratio change if all other things are equal?
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Aug 23, 2018 18:15
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Hmm. Colonist was an actual job type in the screenshots. I wonder how long it'll take before a colony is of value? And what will 'of value' mean? Will we be grabbing every single world, or will we be skipping things because of something or other?
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Aug 23, 2018 18:19
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Baronjutter posted:We still don't know all the moving parts, but I've got a few knee-jerk fears about the new system. What killed me about the old system, specially sectors, was the idea that something somewhere might not be optimized and I didn't even know about it. Maybe that +10% energy robot is working on a mine, and the +15% minerals very strong race is working on a research tile while a +10% physics dude is working a mine. If the new system auto-sorts pops nearly flawlessly I'll love it. In the civilization series I'd almost never manually assign my pops, they'd auto-assign them perfectly to maximize what ever you wanted. Some buttons like that would be great to maximize food, energy, minerals, science, unity, balanced and so on. Workers get sorted and you get the optimal output for the chosen type, or "balanced" which tries to optimise everything. That's fine. The DD was talking about underrepresented pops growing preferentially all other things being equal so the way you want it to work should be how it works
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Aug 23, 2018 18:30
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Wiz posted:So would I, but I honestly don't think we can do it with our current art budget. Maybe in a limited fashion, or sometime in a later update. Someone called 'Long Game Short' replied to your tweet with a photoshopped picture using existing graphical assets as pop backgrounds. I honestly think it's an improvement even over your 'official' one, very elegant. https://twitter.com/longgameshort/status/1032655313302900737
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Aug 23, 2018 18:34
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My impression is that eventually your planet hits a level where overcrowding and migration penalties stops population growth, is that right?
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Aug 23, 2018 18:38
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Gimmick Account posted:Someone called 'Long Game Short' replied to your tweet with a photoshopped picture using existing graphical assets as pop backgrounds. I honestly think it's an improvement even over your 'official' one, very elegant. The bottom one does feel a fair bit more readable tbh.
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Aug 23, 2018 18:41
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Doesn’t adapt to different planet types; I’m not sure how important that is to Wiz though
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Aug 23, 2018 18:52
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Yeah but you know what planet you're on, it says so at the top, far more useful is being able to quickly visually identify what each of the worker categories represents without reading the label.
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Aug 23, 2018 18:59
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hobbesmaster posted:Doesn’t adapt to different planet types; I’m not sure how important that is to Wiz though I think it would be more helpful for each the different job categories to have a single recognizable colour scheme. Having the agricultural sector adapt graphically between various planet types might become irritating if some of the colours clash with those of the industrial sector on, say, arid worlds.
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Aug 23, 2018 19:00
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Baronjutter posted:MAH OPTIMISATION The dev diary said that pops with skills better suited to a job can displace other pops, which would hopefully mean that optimal placement will happen automatically. If it doesn't, however, I can see people getting pissed off for the reasons you outline.
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Aug 23, 2018 19:01
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Gimmick Account posted:I think it would be more helpful for each the different job categories to have a single recognizable colour scheme. Having the agricultural sector adapt graphically between various planet types might become irritating if some of the colours clash with those of the industrial sector on, say, arid worlds. Yeah, the one benefit I guess to the other layout is presumably it tells you which building is providing each of the jobs?? But you could do that with an outline or something I think a bit better, or overlay the building on top of the new background as well. Either way i think having the per-job backgrounds rather than per-planet backgrounds is much better for readability.
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Aug 23, 2018 19:02
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awww man now I'm in paradox limbo land where the dev diaries made me excited about the game again but I don't wanna play the current version
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Aug 23, 2018 19:21
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fuf posted:awww man now I'm in paradox limbo land where the dev diaries made me excited about the game again but I don't wanna play the current version As soon as I saw some of the earliest tweets I put this game on the back burner. I had already played like 7 games to completion so I needed a break anyways, but I can't play the current game knowing it's going to drastically change in the semi-near future.
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Aug 23, 2018 19:26
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Gimmick Account posted:Someone called 'Long Game Short' replied to your tweet with a photoshopped picture using existing graphical assets as pop backgrounds. I honestly think it's an improvement even over your 'official' one, very elegant. Oh yeah, I definitely prefer that bottom one. Much easier to read.
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Aug 23, 2018 19:32
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Rumda posted:The DD was talking about underrepresented pops growing preferentially all other things being equal so the way you want it to work should be how it works He was saying, and I tend to agree, that this may not be desirable. Although the weighting there may in fact be small enough that it would take a very, very long time to shift that way.
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Aug 23, 2018 19:33
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Rumda posted:The DD was talking about underrepresented pops growing preferentially all other things being equal so the way you want it to work should be how it works That's the exact opposite of what I'm wanting though, for underrepresented pops to remain underrepresented. Not for the majority species to decide to hold off on reproduction to allow the newcomers time to catch up.
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Aug 23, 2018 19:33
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Nthing that Long Game Short's version of pop job backgrounds as themed images is even better than building icons, especially at a glance. No idea how art-intensive it would be, though.
Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Aug 23, 2018 |
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Aug 23, 2018 19:39
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Baronjutter posted:That's the exact opposite of what I'm wanting though, for underrepresented pops to remain underrepresented. Not for the majority species to decide to hold off on reproduction to allow the newcomers time to catch up. But I feel like I'm not actually understanding the system. As I'm reading it, if Earth at or over capacity and has 20 human pops, and a single blorg moves in... will the the "overrepresented" humans decline until there's 10 blorg and 10 humans? What is that trying to represent? Does immigration always lead to population decline for your primary species in a crowded empire? I like the idea of dynamic population changes, but I'm not sure I understand what's being represented or even what's going on in game terms. I think this only applies to overcrowded planets though, so an earth with 12 humans and 1 blorg with a capacity of 20 is going to grow more humans than blorgs maybe? Is only one species growing a pop at a time like the interface implies?
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Aug 23, 2018 19:53
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Baronjutter posted:That's the exact opposite of what I'm wanting though, for underrepresented pops to remain underrepresented. Not for the majority species to decide to hold off on reproduction to allow the newcomers time to catch up. Good news! You can set up a preferred species, which will result in what you want.
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Aug 23, 2018 19:54
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It seems like an odd choice to grow underrepresented pops and is different than I expected. The dev diary explicitly stated growing pops on a new planet so I don't think it has to do with overcrowding. It seems that the recent announcements of different living standards, different social classes, minority species with separate rights, sure seems to be pointing in a direction for conflict between pops.
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Aug 23, 2018 20:05
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Libluini posted:Good news! You can set up a preferred species, which will result in what you want. quote:One thing we are considering is allowing you to manually override which species should be growing on a planet, for situations like this. Basically giving a specific species priority for a particular planet. Even 'mining worlds' will rarely be completely 100% mining jobs though. It doesn't in fact sound like it's a minor weighting at all, based on this post from the paradox thread: Wiz posted:Each species gets a 'demographical weight' based on factors like citizen rights, growth speed modifier, etc. This is then modified by their current numbers on the planet, with weight being reduced the more of them there already is. Finally a bit of randomness is applied, and highest weight is picked. For example, if you have 10 Humans and 10 Blorg, it will be a roughly 50/50 chance to get a Human or a Blorg, but if it was 2 Humans and 10 Blorg, you'd be guaranteed another Human unless there was another major factor such as the Humans had only Residence rights, which adds a large weight decrease in being picked for next pop. Strudel Man fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Aug 23, 2018 |
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Aug 23, 2018 20:05
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Trade Values? Why wiz don't be coy,do go on 👀👀👀
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Aug 23, 2018 20:18
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Crazycryodude posted:Nthing that Long Game Short's version of pop job backgrounds as themed images is even better than building icons, especially at a glance. No idea how art-intensive it would be, though. I think there's enough artwork that you could give every job an image like that placeholder does. One thing that always bugged me about the tiles is that they look like some buildings were just plopped in the middle of a field rather than part of a massive installation. Even fully-developed planets look strangely sparse and disconnected from those gorgeous event images that depict massive landscapes of infrastructure. Using those images themselves is a pretty neat idea that makes planets feel larger.
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Aug 23, 2018 20:19
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Libluini posted:Good news! You can set up a preferred species, which will result in what you want. But I bet any policy other than "take a break from breeding if newcomers arrive to balance our species demographics" is labeled some anti-egalitarian anti-xenophile policy though. Like, I don't want to need to use a heavy handed government policy to make sure minorities don't breed out of control and take over, I want this to not actually be a worry outside of a paranoid nativists nightmare. Hopefully a lot of this is moddable though because outside of mass immigration there should be no way for a newly arrived species to suddenly increase it's percentage share of the total population. My ideal population growth system would be as realistic as possible, with each pop of the same species on the same planet contributing "grown points" to grow a pop, new pops form as soon as any species on the planet builds up enough points. Bigger populations grow faster, minority populations grow slower. Those 10 human pops might produce a new human pop in a year, but that 1 blorg pop might take 10 years. Growth, without any other limiting factors, should be exponential and calculated individually for each species. Of course there's going to be a ton of "other factors". Unhappy pops might grow less, various ethical carrots and brutal sticks might encourage or discourage reproductive speed, habitability, race traits, crowding, planet-specific policies and traits, you name it. Just get rid of any mechanic that seeks to "balance" the demographics arbitrarily. That sounds like it could be a good xenophile policy though, to encourage diversity through a series of subsidies and policies that help the smallest alien minorities grow and prosper, but it shouldn't be the default behavior of the system. But outside of policies and major habitability issues, 20 humans and 1 blorg should become 30 humans and 1 blorg, should become 40 humans and 2 blorg, should become 60 humans and 3 blorg and so on. But even through modding of the new system you'd get the opposite problem. 20 humans and 1 blorg would mean that 1 blorg would never win the new-pop lottery. Well they'd have a 1 in 20 chance, which I guess over time would probably maintain the ratios, but with a hell of a lot of random chance rather than it being statistical and just keeping track of each species growth at the same time. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Aug 23, 2018 |
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Aug 23, 2018 20:29
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Baronjutter posted:But I bet any policy other than "take a break from breeding if newcomers arrive to balance our species demographics" is labeled some anti-egalitarian anti-xenophile policy though. Like, I don't want to need to use a heavy handed government policy to make sure minorities don't breed out of control and take over, I want this to not actually be a worry outside of a paranoid nativists nightmare. I was legit uncomfortable saying this, like "yaknow the idea that minority species breed way faster than the majority species is loaded with all kinds of baggage" but yeah this is a good way of phrasing it
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Aug 23, 2018 20:30
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Another advantage to using one piece of artwork for the job backgrounds is that it'd let you get rid of the tiles entirely and just have the worker pops freely spread across the image, so when you have more than 6 workers on one job they'd just squeeze in a little tighter, rather than starting a new row (I think we saw that in one of the teaser images).
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Aug 23, 2018 20:34
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Eiba posted:Yeah, it seems a bit odd to me as well. As a xenophile, I think it's great to have a multi-species planet, but I kind of want that to happen more naturally. It's a game. There is no "naturally". If you want the majority species to be the preferred one growing you will keep having homogenous home planets forever.
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Aug 23, 2018 20:35
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Baronjutter posted:But even through modding of the new system you'd get the opposite problem. 20 humans and 1 blorg would mean that 1 blorg would never win the new-pop lottery. Well they'd have a 1 in 20 chance, which I guess over time would probably maintain the ratios, but with a hell of a lot of random chance rather than it being statistical and just keeping track of each species growth at the same time. Wiz posted:It's a game. There is no "naturally". If you want the majority species to be the preferred one growing you will keep having homogenous home planets forever.
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Aug 23, 2018 20:40
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Wiz posted:It's a game. There is no "naturally". If you want the majority species to be the preferred one growing you will keep having homogenous home planets forever. One would think that "ensuring heterogeneous home/capital planets, or not" should be a choice for players and AI to make based on practicalities or ethics or the diplomatic situation, rather than a baseline "rule of nature" level goal of the simulation. That said it seems like a lot of these weights will be moddable so ideally I'll just tweak it myself. Dallan Invictus fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Aug 23, 2018 |
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Aug 23, 2018 20:44
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From a gameplay perspective minority species growing towards parity makes perfect sense because if you want a very cosmopolitan population (which you presumably do if you're granting full citizenship to everyone and signing migration treaties) it'll give you that with no extra effort.
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Aug 23, 2018 20:48
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Dallan Invictus posted:One would think that "ensuring heterogeneous home/capital planets, or not" should be a choice for players and AI to make based on practicalities or ethics or the diplomatic situation, rather than a baseline goal of the simulation. It's not like you will inevitably get a ton of alien immigrants on your home planet. It depends on your policies, and I can only assume that an empire that grants full citizenship to every species and signs a ton of migration treaties wants a diverse population.
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Aug 23, 2018 20:49
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Wiz posted:It's not like you will inevitably get a ton of alien immigrants on your home planet. It depends on your policies, and I can only assume that an empire that grants full citizenship to every species and signs a ton of migration treaties wants a diverse population. Hell, even in the situation you describe - you think of Star Trek, where the Federation is certainly xenophilic, full citizenship to aliens, allows migration, whatever. But Earth in that is still pretty much entirely human, not evenly divided between every species they're friendly with. Strudel Man fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Aug 23, 2018 |
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Aug 23, 2018 20:52
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can I build a space wall
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Aug 23, 2018 20:52
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Strudel Man posted:Come on, 'naturally' obviously means 'in accordance with one's intuitive expectations.' Nothing about pop growth in Stellaris makes sense to begin with. Growing your population in such a way that you can have 100x the population you had at the start of the game in just a century or two is utterly and completely unrealistic, but we have it that way because otherwise building your space empire would suck. I really don't see why that particular part of the system needs to make sense 'realistically' when the rest of it really does not.
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Aug 23, 2018 20:55
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Wiz posted:It's a game. There is no "naturally". If you want the majority species to be the preferred one growing you will keep having homogenous home planets forever. Dallan Invictus posted:One would think that "ensuring heterogeneous home/capital planets, or not" should be a choice for players and AI to make based on practicalities or ethics or the diplomatic situation, rather than a baseline goal of the simulation. Yeah, this. It's just weird that planets would automatically trend towards equal distributions of species... Like I wouldn't expect that behaviour to just happen, I would really expect for home planets to be majority dominated by the species whose homeworld it is... If you deliberally set up the planet to house lots of different alien species by building xenophile buildings or whatever that encourage it to become a multicultural hub or something then sure, but just "you got one pop of blorg on the planet so now they're slowly going to displace half the population" seems very strange. And possibly irritating given that different species confer quite different mechanical effects in Stellaris. You can have equal species rights but still think that the swole lizard dudes who love deserts should all live on the desert planet covered in mines because that's what they're good at.
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Aug 23, 2018 20:55
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Strudel Man posted:Wouldn't it also happen from internal migration if you conquer any high-population alien planets, but give them full citizenship? It's almost certainly not going to be evenly divided unless you play a 500-year campaign or something. It is going to be pretty diverse though, and that's the goal. Bear in mind Habitability plays in here majorly as well, so you wouldn't end up with an even distribution of species unless all your planets had equal habitability for all species.
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Aug 23, 2018 20:56
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Wiz posted:Nothing about pop growth in Stellaris makes sense to begin with. Growing your population in such a way that you can have 100x the population you had at the start of the game in just a century or two is utterly and completely unrealistic, but we have it that way because otherwise building your space empire would suck. I really don't see why that particular part of the system needs to make sense 'realistically' when the rest of it really does not. It does not make sense that tiny immigrant populations, given no special treatment, will grow to numerical parity with the original population. The general outcome feels unnatural.
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Aug 23, 2018 20:58
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OwlFancier posted:Yeah, this. If you don't want the swole lizards moving to your homeworld, then don't give them full citizenship and unrestricted migration rights. You're not exactly helpless in this situation.
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Aug 23, 2018 20:59
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Sindai posted:From a gameplay perspective minority species growing towards parity makes perfect sense because if you want a very cosmopolitan population (which you presumably do if you're granting full citizenship to everyone and signing migration treaties) it'll give you that with no extra effort.
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Aug 23, 2018 20:59
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Strudel Man posted:It makes sense that populations will grow - the scale of that may be distorted, but the general outcome feels natural. And a bit more significantly, seems very odd from a scifi perspective. The aliens in star trek aren't uniformly distributed and places where they were like DS9, that was notable, it was a feature of its location and function. So yeah for a dedicated trading world or something it'd be neat, but if it's just a thing that happens it seems kind of odd.
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Aug 23, 2018 21:00
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