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Vader throwing the emperor down the well turned him into a complete joke. He's already weak, how's he gonna stop the emperor? And what did we learn about the emperor except he's into Vader's family history? Just terrible handling of what George and Kershner setup.
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Aug 25, 2018 21:39
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Did people widely debate how Palpatine turned Vader to the dark side and why Vader joined the Emperor between 1983 and 1999/2005? Despite having read all those comics and novels, I genuinely can't think of it ever being talked about in them. I know certain things were off-limits (A.C. Crispin, who wrote the Han Solo trilogy of novels, wanted to write a corresponding trilogy about Leia, but was told she couldn't because Lucas wanted to develop a TV series about young Leia set before ANH or something like that) but don't know if the origins of Palpatine and Vader was one of them. In fact, there's one comic miniseries ("Vader's Quest", written and illustrated by Dave Gibbons) which as I recall seems to imply that Palpatine only learns that Vader is Anakin Skywalker during the course of the storyline. 
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Aug 25, 2018 21:42
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Only a handful of people even knew that Vader had been Anakin. Nobody even knew Vader had kids until a recent book where Leia is running for office in the New Republic.
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Aug 25, 2018 22:04
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Weavered posted:TLJ had plenty of twists; Snoke getting lopped in half, the vice-admiral being useful, the code breaker switching sides and all the rebel plans not set out by Luke or Leia failing miserably. Rey’s parentage didn’t even come into it because I’m a Star Wars fan but not a Raging Internet Star Wars Fan. When they go off to find the code breaker, we're thinking "wow what a daring plan, no way that'll work!" and the film goes "no of course not, it was all a waste of time", whereas normally that sort of thing usually works in movies. The twists don't bring any joy, so to say, they're all kind of a bummer. Even the twist when Luke survives getting stabbed is turned it another twist that no, actually he died of space plague or something shortly after. So if people were expecting a fun space adventure and instead got a huge downer, we might expect them to lash out at whatever they were looking forward to most being explored; apparently Rey's parentage for some reason. Personally I'm most annoyed by the ship having Star Trek style bubble shields, when shields in Star Wars have always been shown as hull hugging before 
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Aug 25, 2018 22:18
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twists are supposed to be joyful?
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Aug 25, 2018 22:25
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Mooey Cow posted:So if people were expecting a fun space adventure and instead got a huge downer, we might expect them to lash out at whatever they were looking forward to most being explored; apparently Rey's parentage for some reason. I reckon the "lashing out" was not going to see Solo and probably Episode IX.
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Aug 25, 2018 22:26
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Mooey Cow posted:They way Snoke was talking like "Do it Kylo, kill your true enemy, the person, man or woman or alien, in this room, who is really your enemy and may have touched you inappropriately in your sleep". It's so obvious Kylo's gonna kill him it's like they're setting up a twist to actually kill Rey, but nope. The twist is there is no twist. I was expecting Kylo to kill himself to save Rey, all that harping on about balance and the guys got issues.
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Aug 25, 2018 22:30
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Snoke actually committed suicide. He was controlling the lightsaber himself the entire time.
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Aug 25, 2018 22:41
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remusclaw posted:Zach Snyder is good at what he does if what he wanted to do was appeal to that mindset, and he is bad at what he does if he was going for satire, because the people who are totally down for eating babies took his modest proposal seriously. At the time, people inclined to read 300 as entirely sincere were also likely to be virulent homophobes, and yet...
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Aug 25, 2018 22:51
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Hodgepodge posted:At the time, people inclined to read 300 as entirely sincere were also likely to be virulent homophobes, and yet... Fascists have always been obsessed with the idealized male form though. It contrasts them with the supposed decadence and effeminence of their enemies. Hell Fascists and Gay people don't even have a monopoly on that stuff. Was Michelangelo's David supposed to be Homoerotic? And I don't know what your talking about "everyone" being a homophobe.because to this day the overwhelming majority of people see no satire in 300. Unless by everyone you mean the fact that back when it came out most people were homophobes in some way in which case your right, but in a way that is meaningless.
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Aug 25, 2018 23:10
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galagazombie posted:Was Michelangelo's David supposed to be Homoerotic? I can't comment whatsoever on the why of it, but Michelangelo only did art of buff men, even his women were buff men.
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Aug 25, 2018 23:13
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There is a lot of speculation that Michelangelo was indeed gay as a stack of blueberry pancakes but nobody really knows. Personally I think it's more "hey look I studied a bunch of skinned corpses on the sly and I'm an anatomy expert now lookitmeeeee" e: nope I'm wrong the one with a lot of questionmarks is Leonardo, we're actually pretty sure Michelangelo was gay
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Aug 25, 2018 23:16
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remusclaw posted:I can't comment whatsoever on the why of it, but Michelangelo only did art of buff men, even his women were buff men. I heard it was illegal to draw women in the nude so he just slapped tits on male models.
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Aug 25, 2018 23:33
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The point is everyone was idealizing the male form in art. Of course some were gay because some of every group that's not specifically bigoted against them are gay (and sometimes even then).
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Aug 26, 2018 01:44
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https://twitter.com/qikipedia/status/1033489197837905921
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Aug 26, 2018 04:47
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sassassin posted:I still can't get over how soft he looks. This is the least intimidating man in existence. Look at those big wet eyes and quivering upper lip. Cassian: I have an edge. K2: You really don't. K2: You're literally the most wide-eyed person I've ever seen. K2: You have the face of a cartoon lamb.
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Aug 26, 2018 19:27
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Wheat Loaf posted:Snoke actually committed suicide. He was controlling the lightsaber himself the entire time. Now this is the first theory I've heard thrown around that actually seems interesting (though I know you were just joshing).
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Aug 26, 2018 23:05
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Dishwasher posted:Now this is the first theory I've heard thrown around that actually seems interesting (though I know you were just joshing). I elaborated on it in the other thread. Basically, Snoke is in constant pain from his injuries - this is very plain from the film, so much so I'm surprised it hasn't been commented on more often - and wants to be euthanised, but no-one in the First Order would be willing to or capable of doing it and he himself is too fearful of death (again, very plain from both the text of the film and its subtext) to commit suicide. The reason he is training Kylo is because he wants to create someone powerful enough to put him out of his misery; that's why he says Kylo could be "a new Vader", because Vader killed his master. It's why he wants to find and kill Luke; because, lacking the whole story, he almost certainly believes Luke would try to turn Kylo away from the dark side and thus undo all of his hard work. When he is describing Kylo's actions, he is in fact describing his own actions. He has become caught up in the moment (as is communicated by his facial expression and his voice) and without even realising it he is turning the lightsaber to kill his true enemy, not realising that he - Snoke - is his own "true enemy", just as Palpatine's overconfidence was his weakness (see Snoke's declarations about how he cannot be beaten and cannot be betrayed). However, because his mind is clouded by the dark side, he has managed to trick himself into thinking that Kylo is the one controlling the lightsaber even as he is doing it himself, because it is the only way he, with his aforementioned crippling fear of death, can ever commit suicide; by tricking himself into believing that someone else is killing him. The expression he makes when he is stabbed isn't shock at being betrayed by his own apprentice, because that is the expression that people make when they accidentally fatally stab themselves (as described and discussed in sources too numerous to review here). There's no joshing or anything like that - this is clearly, unequivocally and incontrovertibly what happens in the film.
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Aug 26, 2018 23:31
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Wheat Loaf posted:I elaborated on it in the other thread. Well it's a creative theory at least
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Aug 27, 2018 05:24
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Preston Waters posted:I read that one as a kid. With some three-eyed admiral dude or w/e. It was mega lame Hey, now. That was the book that taught 7 year old me that a work of fiction can get so bad it wraps back around to being enjoyable. Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to go to the mofference room for my 4 o'clock meeting.
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Aug 27, 2018 20:35
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If the Knights of Ren don't say "We bid you dark greetings" we riot
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Aug 27, 2018 20:56
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Arc Light posted:Hey, now. 
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Aug 27, 2018 21:02
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"I want pictures! Pictures of Princess Leia!"
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Aug 27, 2018 21:05
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The good old days when the heads of the Empire included (clockwise starting with) a three-eyed man pretending to be Emperor Palpatine's three-eyed bastard son, an Aryan, Peter Capaldi, a man with miniature blaster earrings, a Josef Stalin cosplayer, Eugene Levy and F. Murray Abraham.
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Aug 27, 2018 21:06
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bushisms.txt posted:Why is yoda so powerful, who is he related to? Oh it doesn't matter? Just lovely fan logic that needs some elaborate explanation for why a woman is strong. I completely forgot that Yoda was analogous to Rey by being the main character in OT and the films are about his story.
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Aug 27, 2018 21:34
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So power level logic only matters for main characters got it.
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Aug 27, 2018 21:46
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I sympathize with bushism.txt's roundabout argument that the original movies are bad too, even if their particular points are silly.
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Aug 27, 2018 21:54
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I'm just poking fun at the dumb complaints. Like folks point to the disappearing blade in the throne room as proof the fight scene\choerography was bad, but how many would agree the trex reveal in Jurassic Park is bad just cause it ends impossibly with the truck being pushed over a ledge that didn't exist?
bushisms.txt fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Aug 27, 2018 |
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Aug 27, 2018 21:57
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I perfectly understand, though. A central character in the story has no character, but the originals did the same. They're pretty bad.
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Aug 27, 2018 21:59
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Or, they gave them characteristics you didn't twig on? Knowing where a character got power isn't a characteristic. We know everything we need to about the characters from the movie.
bushisms.txt fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Aug 27, 2018 |
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Aug 27, 2018 22:02
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bushisms.txt posted:Knowing where a character got power isn't a characteristic. We know everything we need to about the characters from the movie. This is a universe where people get power from God. Of course it's a character trait. Like it says a lot about Star Wars fan that they desensitize themselves to the implications of divine power.
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Aug 27, 2018 22:20
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:This is a universe where people get power from God. Of course it's a character trait. The point of Rey is everyone gets the chance at that power. The films focusing on one family has made fans insular to certain ideas. The nutrilogy is about establishing how small minded that focus is.
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Aug 27, 2018 22:32
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But whether she was born in a palace or scrapheap Rey is, by the film series' rules, part of a genetic minority of like 0.001% of the galactic population. Moreover, the first thing she does upon discovering her powers is turn it over to the disposal of Galactic Aristocrat Leia and Knight Luke Skywalker. Ben Solo is as close to being born in the purple as it gets in the Republic, but becomes a genuine (if kinda clueless) revolutionary. Like, nobody can control who has whatever percentage of midichlorians they're born with. What's important is what you do with it. e: Not saying you're wrong about the filmmakers' intent, just that it's kinda a dumb message Harime Nui fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Aug 27, 2018 |
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Aug 27, 2018 22:37
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bushisms.txt posted:The point of Rey is everyone gets the chance at that power. The films focusing on one family has made fans insular to certain ideas. The nutrilogy is about establishing how small minded that focus is. you seem to have forgotten the existence of every jedi in the prequels not named skywalker
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Aug 28, 2018 00:15
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Rey does not represent the idea that anyone can become a powerful Force adept. At most, she shows that you can have divine power without being actually born to people who also have it. But we already knew that, because there were several thousand Jedi in the old Order at any one time, and evidently they weren't having kids and passing on their powers that way. And the Christ figure of the saga is born a slave in the middle of nowhere. An awful lot of people seem to think that Star Wars endorses hereditary birthrights: Leia and especially Luke are strong because they are the twin children of a powerful sorcerer, and they use that power to defeat the evil empire and save the day. To me, this seems like one of those wild misunderstandings that nevertheless penetrated popular culture. Yes, Luke and Leia do turn out to inherit Anakin Skywalker's strength in the Force. In a typical fantasy, this would mean they have a divine right to rule, and the usurper king must be dethroned because he's illegitimate. Instead, Leia becomes a revolutionary—although she starts as an upper-class liberal snob—who opposes the Empire because it's fascist. Luke throws away all his worldly power, refuses to become what his father is, and in so doing inspires Vader to destroy evil. The father dies to redeem the galaxy because the son was willing to do it first. In the end, the Rebel victory has little to do with the fact that Luke and Leia have magic powers, except for that one time Luke made a lucky shot. Their relationship with Vader matters, but only insofar as Vader wants them to vindicate him—first as the enlightened dictators he wanted Padmé to be, but later as symbols of the last good thing he did in the world. But for them, the revelation that they are lost heirs is a tragedy. Their inheritance is poison. I like the family connections in Star Wars. They make the conflicts relatable, and they serve as a good metaphor for the struggle we all have to reckon with the legacy of the past. Anakin's mistakes are a small-scale representation of an entire generation's mistakes. I think the asymmetry in the ways Obi-Wan and Anakin think of each other as adoptive family members lends their relationship a nice tension. And I think Ben Solo is the only compelling character in the sequel trilogy precisely because he's the only one who has a substantial personal connection to the failure of the resurrected Republic.
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Aug 28, 2018 00:25
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Wheat Loaf posted:There's no joshing or anything like that - this is clearly, unequivocally and incontrovertibly what happens in the film. I like it. And the facial expression post-slice seemed weird to me too. "What are you doing leading the First Order, you killed Snoke. You're better than this." "I didn't kill Snoke. You......you didn't kill Snoke? I saw you grab the saber." *audio stinger* "Shiiid, I was just about to slice your head off before that happened too. Guess we'd better figure out what's going on.  "
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Aug 28, 2018 01:26
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:you seem to have forgotten the existence of every jedi in the prequels not named skywalker The jedi in the prequels who are not Yoda, Obi-Wan, or Jinn are pretty incidental including Mace Windu. They serve little other purpose besides showing a world with more than a handful of Jedi. Star Wars as a series has been one in which galactic spanning politics and war have revolved around one family even dragging Leia--the character who was actually standing up to the empire from the jump--into it even what doesn't make particular sense. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Aug 28, 2018 |
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Aug 28, 2018 02:44
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you mean the series that was about the history of one family put that family in a central role???  Timeless Appeal posted:The jedi in the prequels who are not Yoda, Obi-Wan, or Jinn are pretty incidental including Mace Windu. They serve little other purpose besides showing a world with more than a handful of Jedi. lol
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Aug 28, 2018 02:51
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:you mean the series that was about the history of one family put that family in a central role???
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Aug 28, 2018 03:06
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Timeless Appeal posted:I mean yes, but more I'm saying that your point that there are more jedis than the Skywalkers is pretty pedantic when the only ones that matter are basically father figures for Skywalkers in some way. Yoda, Jinn, and Obi-Wan are all part of the family at the end of the day. The rest of the Jedi existed to establish the world of the prequels than be actual characters on their own. Using them to refute Bushisms' point makes no sense. what does any of that have to do with the claim that rey proves that anyone can be a wizard even if your parents were muggles
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Aug 28, 2018 03:15
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