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Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

Bruce Wayne getting back to Gotham is not an obstacle, Wayne getting out of the prison is. The story to that point is that Wayne lost his Batman powers, but by climbing out of the prison he gets them back. One of Batman's superpowers is of course the ability to appear and disappear without warning.

Him showing back in Gotham without further explanation is the same gag as him showing up in Gotham's PD rooftop when the Batsignal is lit without Gordon noticing him approaching(Or leaving)

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DeafNote
Jun 4, 2014

Only Happy When It Rains

Kay Kessler posted:

It was really dumb of Jim to single out Nintendo as an exception when they did literally the exact same thing as the others. His reasoning for it was pretty dumb, too.

I dont see it as the exact same thing. No Mainstays were removed from Smash 4, except Ice Climbers who couldnt be returned anyway.
It was fanservice more than anything.
Arguing about the overpoweredness of the characters is another aspect I suppose. But that wasnt really the factor for the video.

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

jim is making a massive, massive leap in logic right out the gate with this video assuming that anybody in the world likes, mains or cares about Tira

RareAcumen
Dec 28, 2012




So, just to make an rear end of myself, a plot hole would be if in the beginning of Indiana Jones he's freaking out and screaming about a snake in his plane and then later on he's just canoeing over a river of snakes and then walking across it when the boat hits a snakeberg with no complaints right?

Ghostlight
Sep 25, 2009

maybe for one second you can pause; try to step into another person's perspective, and understand that a watermelon is cursing me



That's just an inconsistency.

A plot hole would be more like if the Lord of the Rings didn't take the time to establish how the ring needed to be carried in stealth to Mount Doom because there's this honking great eye staring at everything that enters Mordor with a bunch of evil ghosts to order about and then the eagles show up at the end to deus ex machina the hobbits. Why didn't the eagles just fly the hobbits there in the first place? That's a hole in the plot! Well, because then there wouldn't be a plot, but that's an exterior reason - that the eye is defending Mordor from obvious things like armies and giant loving eagles is a textual reason that provides internal logic to plug the 'hole'.

But as the video goes into detail, also your thing is a plot hole now because it's an overused term for anything people want to criticise about a movie that doesn't even relate necessarily to the plot.

Bakeneko
Jan 9, 2007

The biggest flaw in Patrick Willems’ argument is that he’s getting “logical” character actions confused with “believable” ones. Yes, humans don’t always do the exact most rational thing at any given time, but they always behave according to their established personality and the circumstances of the situation. A character acting like an idiot and missing a very obvious solution to their problem is a legitimate flaw in the film, unless that character is supposed to be an unobservant idiot and their role in the film reflects this.

And I really hate the argument he brings up at around 6:30 where he basically says “you should ignore characters doing completely irrational things because it provides conflict for the plot”. This is bullshit. If you’re a writer and you have to have your characters take actions that make no sense just to create tension and conflict, then you have failed at your job and you need to go back to the drawing board and rework your plot rather than just trying to wallpaper over those mistakes. The plot will be better for it, believe me.

For example, Voldemort makes another silly mistake in the Harry Potter series that I don't have a problem with, because it's justified within the story. The question of why he didn't just make some random rock into a horcrux and instead used things that could be tied to him is explained by the fact that he is a massive egotist and wanted all the vessels for his soul to have symbolic meaning. Illogical, yes, but it fits his character. The portkey thing does not.

Bakeneko fucked around with this message at 14:01 on Aug 28, 2018

KayTee
May 5, 2012

Whachoodoin?
INTERNET CULTURE!!!

https://twitter.com/MFKAOZ/status/1034098875227766784?s=19

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acYl2lpq1YI

Leal
Oct 2, 2009

https://twitter.com/MFKAOZ/status/1034220414564675584

"How should I tag my attempt to capitalize on a shooting.. Oh I know! Funny, salt, rage quit..."

E: Holy gently caress I just saw the "dead" tag.

Augus
Mar 9, 2015


Leal posted:

https://twitter.com/MFKAOZ/status/1034220414564675584

"How should I tag my attempt to capitalize on a shooting.. Oh I know! Funny, salt, rage quit..."

E: Holy gently caress I just saw the "dead" tag.

“cheap tactics”

Tarquinn
Jul 3, 2007

"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."



Hell Gem
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f83D18xL7VE

It's like shooting people in a barrel. :v:

Tarquinn fucked around with this message at 15:13 on Aug 28, 2018

e X
Feb 23, 2013

cool but crude

Max Wilco posted:

So I'm going to be that rear end in a top hat that raises objections to a couple of the arguments, even though I agree with core message of the video.

His first example about with 'How did Bruce Wayne get back to Gotham in Dark Knight Rises' I think is a bad example. I get that we don't need to literally see Bruce Wayne board a plane and fly back to the US and disembark, but it's a question of how he was able to secure transport out if he didn't have money, proof of identification, etc. You can hand-wave that away as not being crucial to the film, and I agree, but it's not very satisfying.

I agree with the crux of his video, but I think there is a difference between needless nitpicking about error and inconsistencies, and how enough errors can build up and weight something down. There's an article series by Shamus Young critiquing the Thieves' Guild questline in Skyrim, and also refers to an previous write-up he did on plot holes and story collapse (some of it based on critiques done by Film Crit Hulk)

I've also heard it said that John Carpenter's 'The Thing' serves as an example of a horror movie where the characters behave rationally throughout (maybe not 100%, but I still haven't seen The Thing yet.)

Also, I don't know why, but with the digs at Cinema Sins in the video, and just some general dismissals of it here and there, I now have this feeling that eventually Jeremy is eventually going to snap.

No, I agree with you, people using "plot hole" as a catch all term of things they don't like about a movie is obnoxious and superficial, but this video definitely overshoots its target. It makes up a dichotomy between "logic" and human emotion and than tries to subsume everything under it. That works for some, but not really for all. I also think his fix all justification, that everything that needs to happen for the plot to advance, has to happen is way to simple. True, most of the examples he cites really aren't plot holes, but he basically completely demises that you can actually criticize the execution of something. People can criticize poor characterization or badly explained character motivations and that is completely valid.

edit:edit: Also, I think it is kind of hard to get to invested in most of these movies, because they are all not vry good. Like, maybe they could have explained better how a destitute and broken Bruce Wayne got back to Gotham, bu the Dark Knight Rises is such a boring movie that I don't really care one way or the other in the end Ż\_(ツ)_/Ż

e X fucked around with this message at 14:18 on Aug 28, 2018

Yardbomb
Jul 11, 2011

What's with the eh... bretonnian dance, sir?

Alaois posted:

jim is making a massive, massive leap in logic right out the gate with this video assuming that anybody in the world likes, mains or cares about Tira

Seeing Tira described as "series mainstay" cracked me up a little, she was in 3 and 4, now 6 and I've never known a single person who cares about that character.

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!
I mean if you are in half of something I think it’s fair to call you a mainstay

sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011

by Azathoth
also wasn't Tira the character that they weren't gonna have in a game but fans asked for her so much they made her the first DLC?

Hel
Oct 9, 2012

Jokatgulm is tedium.
Jokatgulm is pain.
Jokatgulm is suffering.

CharlestheHammer posted:

I mean if you are in half of something I think it’s fair to call you a mainstay

Can you really be in half when you show up in game 4 out of 7?

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!

Hel posted:

Can you really be in half when you show up in game 4 out of 7?

Yes? You could if there were eight even.

Hel
Oct 9, 2012

Jokatgulm is tedium.
Jokatgulm is pain.
Jokatgulm is suffering.

CharlestheHammer posted:

Yes? You could if there were eight even.

Sorry, that should have been in combinations with skipping one of them. Edited out too much and didn't check if it still made sense before posting.

Archer666
Dec 27, 2008

Tarquinn posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f83D18xL7VE

It's like shooting people in a barrel. :v:

It was a fun movie as long as you didn't think about it too hard. But yeah, this is pretty much on point.

stillvisions
Oct 15, 2014

I really should have come up with something better before spending five bucks on this.

Archer666 posted:

It was a fun movie as long as you didn't think about it too hard. But yeah, this is pretty much on point.

I'm disappointed they went mostly on writing nit-picking; I mean, I agree with the general "the script could have used another draft or two and about 30 minutes less movie" but to spend the entire video on that seemed like beating a dead horse.

I was assuming he'd be more interested/positive talking about the movie trying to give the Jedi/universe a bit of a clean slate, given how much RLM have gone on about Star Wars having a threadbare base that's showing through after only a few movies. Or at least a mention to the fact so much of TLJ hate is a chud proxy war over stupid poo poo.

-something something "RLM SUBVERTED MY EXPECTATIONS LIKE STAR WARS" joke goes here-

Seemlar
Jun 18, 2002

stillvisions posted:

Or at least a mention to the fact so much of TLJ hate is a chud proxy war over stupid poo poo.

They don't do that because hey align with the chuds more than not.

admataY
Oct 16, 2008
I will never understand how The last Jedi of all movies become such a hot topic . I love it,I can see why others might not, but it seemed to melt nerd brains in a way I wasnt ready for and I dont know why . It grew an entire cottage industry of hot takes and rage tears and to me its like just a good looking and fun enough pew-pew laser space wizards advanture .
For the very least people should acknowledge how great it is on a technical level - set design, practical AND digital effects , score and cinematography on this movie are top notch .

Ob the RLM video i thought it was better then their Force awaken video ,but not as good as their prequel ones .

admataY fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Aug 28, 2018

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

admataY posted:

I will never understand how The last Jedi of all movies become such a hot topic . I love it,I can see why others might not, but it seemed to melt nerd brains in a way I wasnt ready for and I dont know why . It grew an entire cottage industry of hot takes and rage tears and to me its like just a good looking and fun enough pew-pew laser space wizards advanture .
For the very least people should acknowledge how great it is on a technical level - set design, practical AND digital effects , score and cinematography on this movie are top notch .

Ob the RLM video i thought it was better then their Force awaken video ,but not as good as their prequel ones .

I think RLM is better off putting Plinkett to rest since there really isn't anything else out there like the prequels that warrants it, but I understand that it's a big deal and gets lots of eyeballs when they do make them.

A Gnarlacious Bro
Apr 25, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Seemlar posted:

They don't do that because hey align with the chuds more than not.

lol @ the endless culture war over terrible Disney movies

A Gnarlacious Bro
Apr 25, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Just say you loving like the movie!!

I AM GRANDO
Aug 20, 2006

Plinkett was always just a crutch anyway, a relic from the days when angry video game nerd was the only model for talking about media on youtube. The need for a character has evaporated completely and was always the weakest part of those videos.

Of course it became popular with the latter-day Ernest Clines of the Internet who only appreciate media on the phrase repetition level.

Puppy Time
Mar 1, 2005


admataY posted:

I will never understand how The last Jedi of all movies become such a hot topic . I love it,I can see why others might not, but it seemed to melt nerd brains in a way I wasnt ready for and I dont know why . It grew an entire cottage industry of hot takes and rage tears and to me its like just a good looking and fun enough pew-pew laser space wizards advanture .
For the very least people should acknowledge how great it is on a technical level - set design, practical AND digital effects , score and cinematography on this movie are top notch .


Womz in positions that previously were occupied mainly by men. Also main characters that aren't white.

Commissar Canuck
Aug 5, 2008

They made fun of us! And it's Stanley Cup season!

khwarezm posted:

I think RLM is better off putting Plinkett to rest since there really isn't anything else out there like the prequels that warrants it, but I understand that it's a big deal and gets lots of eyeballs when they do make them.

I just want a Plinkett Review of the Matrix sequels they teased years ago at this point :(

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!

Seemlar posted:

They don't do that because hey align with the chuds more than not.

They don’t really, they also in general don’t really wade into politics that much and honestly I prefer it that way. Because they probably have terrible views but they keep them to themselves.

Though they are on record saying they find the Rey hate dumb and weird.

CharlestheHammer fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Aug 28, 2018

Hemingway To Go!
Nov 10, 2008

im stupider then dog shit, i dont give a shit, and i dont give a fuck, and i will never shut the fuck up, and i'll always Respect my enemys.
- ernest hemingway
personally (And these aren't in the plinkett review - in fact the review actually likes many things about the movie and thinks that it just needed to be shorter) to me, the movie seemed proud to not only subvert, but use its subversion to say sacrifices are wrong, proactivity is wrong, better things are impossible, stop wanting them. Maybe I'm imagining poo poo, but it felt like it was about how nothing is worth fighting for, trying to help anyone is not worth it and will not work out, just be happy that you survived even though you lost 90% of everyone with you. If felt like it's about how if you fight for anything and it makes someone uncomfortable or upset you've done something wrong. The kind of morality a really rich guy who has nothing to lose from the status quo might have, getting real upset about the BLM protests on the news.

I didn't really want to get mad about the movie, and just wanted to move on after watching it, but for like a week after it I kept thinking about it and getting madder. I think the best part of the Plinkett review is where the compare Empire to TLJ both in terms of structure and how it made people feel. I only watched the OT like five years ago but I felt they were pretty inspiring, both in having some real heart and as films of the 80s overcoming the limitations of the era's special effects and troubled productions to make something that people loved and possibly even positively motivated people, something that gave people dreams. I didn't feel like TLJ did that, even with its weak attempts at a message.

stillvisions
Oct 15, 2014

I really should have come up with something better before spending five bucks on this.

business hammocks posted:

Plinkett was always just a crutch anyway, a relic from the days when angry video game nerd was the only model for talking about media on youtube. The need for a character has evaporated completely and was always the weakest part of those videos.

Of course it became popular with the latter-day Ernest Clines of the Internet who only appreciate media on the phrase repetition level.

Looking at the title, I was genuinely hoping that the review would dovetail into that topic; if there was any movie where this would be an easy point to mirror, Luke's disillusionment and vanishing would be it. It practically writes itself as a "stop expecting me to emerge as a savior" point.

I know it's easy for me to say "wouldn't it be great if they broke from populist sentiment and risked their paycheques on the high road", but I can dream, drat it.

A Gnarlacious Bro
Apr 25, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Puppy Time posted:

Womz in positions that previously were occupied mainly by men. Also main characters that aren't white.

While totally a good thing, I find it more than a little gross how quickly people have transferred that goodwill into a blanket defense of the Disney media empire and implying that having a neutral, negative, or complex opinion of these franchises puts you on the wrong side of a culture war. Consider that for all the increased representation these Disney mega-franchises have they also continue to reserve the main role for whites, or in the case of black panther insert a white CIA agent character to sanction the activity. Chud's 100% drug this poo poo into the realm of the culture-war with their whining, but I think a lot of nerd-spaces have become so prickly about this that a complicated relationship with any Disney properties can get met with a "Just say you thought it was OK and shut up, because the Chud's are listening".

Like Disney is so confident that nobody will ever hold them accountable that they can huck Gunn in the trash, steal art, and abuse their employees knowing people will always run flack for them.

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!

stillvisions posted:

Looking at the title, I was genuinely hoping that the review would dovetail into that topic; if there was any movie where this would be an easy point to mirror, Luke's disillusionment and vanishing would be it. It practically writes itself as a "stop expecting me to emerge as a savior" point.

I know it's easy for me to say "wouldn't it be great if they broke from populist sentiment and risked their paycheques on the high road", but I can dream, drat it.

That sounds awful. It’s so self indulgent I can understand why they wouldn’t want to do that.

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

Hemingway To Go! posted:

personally (And these aren't in the plinkett review - in fact the review actually likes many things about the movie and thinks that it just needed to be shorter) to me, the movie seemed proud to not only subvert, but use its subversion to say sacrifices are wrong, proactivity is wrong, better things are impossible, stop wanting them. Maybe I'm imagining poo poo, but it felt like it was about how nothing is worth fighting for, trying to help anyone is not worth it and will not work out, just be happy that you survived even though you lost 90% of everyone with you. If felt like it's about how if you fight for anything and it makes someone uncomfortable or upset you've done something wrong. The kind of morality a really rich guy who has nothing to lose from the status quo might have, getting real upset about the BLM protests on the news.

The thing is

That's a really dumb interpretation.

Like really dumb.

I AM GRANDO
Aug 20, 2006

A Gnarlacious Bro posted:

While totally a good thing, I find it more than a little gross how quickly people have transferred that goodwill into a blanket defense of the Disney media empire and implying that having a neutral, negative, or complex opinion of these franchises puts you on the wrong side of a culture war. Consider that for all the increased representation these Disney mega-franchises have they also continue to reserve the main role for whites, or in the case of black panther insert a white CIA agent character to sanction the activity. Chud's 100% drug this poo poo into the realm of the culture-war with their whining, but I think a lot of nerd-spaces have become so prickly about this that a complicated relationship with any Disney properties can get met with a "Just say you thought it was OK and shut up, because the Chud's are listening".

Like Disney is so confident that nobody will ever hold them accountable that they can huck Gunn in the trash, steal art, and abuse their employees knowing people will always run flack for them.

There’s nothing new about capitalists commodifying political struggle and turning ethics into a question of consumption.

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!

A Gnarlacious Bro posted:

While totally a good thing, I find it more than a little gross how quickly people have transferred that goodwill into a blanket defense of the Disney media empire and implying that having a neutral, negative, or complex opinion of these franchises puts you on the wrong side of a culture war. Consider that for all the increased representation these Disney mega-franchises have they also continue to reserve the main role for whites, or in the case of black panther insert a white CIA agent character to sanction the activity. Chud's 100% drug this poo poo into the realm of the culture-war with their whining, but I think a lot of nerd-spaces have become so prickly about this that a complicated relationship with any Disney properties can get met with a "Just say you thought it was OK and shut up, because the Chud's are listening".

Like Disney is so confident that nobody will ever hold them accountable that they can huck Gunn in the trash, steal art, and abuse their employees knowing people will always run flack for them.

Well it makes sense, chuds nerds can only see things through their consumerism habits but not because their chuds but because their nerds so more progressive nerds despite making fun of them for it also view the world in the exact same way.

A Gnarlacious Bro
Apr 25, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

business hammocks posted:

There’s nothing new about capitalists commodifying political struggle and turning ethics into a question of consumption.

Oh I know

A Gnarlacious Bro
Apr 25, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Anyway the RLM guys are definitely more conservative than many people would like to admit, but I really haven't thought their opinion on Star Wars was coming from socially conservative point of view. I think they are extremely resistant to a specific ploting/editing modern trend in blockbuster movies, where the action sot of careens forward like a Netflix TV show on fast forward, and plot elements are exposited and then immediately moved on from. They tend to articulate that by suggesting simpler and more "clear" emotional beats.

Augus
Mar 9, 2015


Hemingway To Go! posted:

personally (And these aren't in the plinkett review - in fact the review actually likes many things about the movie and thinks that it just needed to be shorter) to me, the movie seemed proud to not only subvert, but use its subversion to say sacrifices are wrong, proactivity is wrong, better things are impossible, stop wanting them. Maybe I'm imagining poo poo, but it felt like it was about how nothing is worth fighting for, trying to help anyone is not worth it and will not work out, just be happy that you survived even though you lost 90% of everyone with you. If felt like it's about how if you fight for anything and it makes someone uncomfortable or upset you've done something wrong. The kind of morality a really rich guy who has nothing to lose from the status quo might have, getting real upset about the BLM protests on the news.

Uh

What?

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I AM GRANDO
Aug 20, 2006

CharlestheHammer posted:

Well it makes sense, chuds nerds can only see things through their consumerism habits but not because their chuds but because their nerds so more progressive nerds despite making fun of them for it also view the world in the exact same way.

I am very thankful the breathless political clickbait review genre seems to have died out. I don’t know if it was consumerism or marketing, but all those “commander Leia is the revolutionary hero WE NEED right now” articles were so annoying in their desperate need to identify transformative politics in disposable big-budget action movies. Read a book, 22-year-old Huffpost person.

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